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God's 10 Commandments vs Roman Catholic 10 Commandments

sculleywr

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Is this really turning into a Catholic vs Protestant discussion. What church was it who created and canonized the bible?
If you read the writings of those contemporary to the canon of Scripture, the answer is the Church. The only Church today which is identical to that Church in dogma is the Orthodox Church. The Roman Catholic Church, with its belief in the development of doctrine, is not identical to that Church, which held that no bishop could be supreme, and professed the Creed without the Filioque.
 
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sculleywr

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The trick is differentiating between the two. Have you on good authority that St Soandso heard God say, make this painting of Jesus and Mary?
nude2.jpg

I have on good authority that the above is an image of a nude person descending a staircase.

For an image of a person to be actually an image of the person is dependent not on the verisimilitude of the image, but on the intention of the Iconographer or painter who makes it.

So, have you on good authority that the Iconographers that make the image of the Pantocrater Icon of Christ weren't intending to make an Icon of Christ?
 
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Exodus 20 is not a prohibition against making “any likeness of anything” in a strict sense because we clearly see God either commanding or praising the making of images and statues in multiple biblical texts (see Exodus 25:18; Numbers 21:8-9; I Kings 6:23-28, 9:3). Just five chapters after this so-called prohibition against statues, for example, God commands Moses to make statues representing two angels to be placed over the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant:

And you shall make two cherubim of gold… The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another…. And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark… There I will meet with you (Ex. 25:18-22).
 
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Exodus 20:4 is part of the first commandment that begins in verse 3 and stretches through part of verse five:

You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.

Verses 3 and 5 make clear that this commandment is not simply condemning making statues; It is condemning making gods that you bow down to or serve. In a word, this first commandment forbids idolatry, i.e., the worship of anything or anyone other than God. The Catholic Church condemns this as well.

Edit: By lifting out part of the first commandment appearing to prohibit the making of “any likeness of anything,” not only do you have God contradicting himself in later commanding the making of statues, but you also end up making the first two commandments repetitive. They are both essentially condemning idolatry.

The problem with creating a second “commandment” where there actually is not one really comes to the fore at the bottom of the list. The common Protestant listing of the Ten Commandments combines coveting your neighbor’s wife, the Catholic ninth commandment, with coveting your neighbor’s property, the Catholic tenth commandment. And really it just can't be any other way because you run out of room. I can’t imagine many women being happy with being equated to property!
 
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Standing Up

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So, have you on good authority that the Iconographers that make the image of the Pantocrater Icon of Christ weren't intending to make an Icon of Christ?

The distinction is clear enough. If the painter claims God told him to make a picture of Christ, then that's one thing. Aside from that, then we're left as we were.
 
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sculleywr

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The distinction is clear enough. If the painter claims God told him to make a picture of Christ, then that's one thing. Aside from that, then we're left as we were.
God has to directly commission every image of Christ? I don't recall that being something even found in Scripture.

The intention of the artist is to depict Christ. It matters not whether the image is physically exactly like Christ. It matters what his intentions were. In this case, the intentions were to make an image of Christ, and we ought to respect that and assume it is an Icon of Christ. Unless God outright calls it an idol, it should not be guilty until proven innocent.
 
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BobRyan

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Exodus 20 is not a prohibition against making “any likeness of anything” in a strict sense because we clearly see God either commanding or praising the making of images and statues in multiple biblical texts (see Exodus 25:18; Numbers 21:8-9; I Kings 6:23-28, 9:3). Just five chapters after this so-called prohibition against statues, for example, God commands Moses to make statues representing two angels to be placed over the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant:
.

What you don't see - is prayers to those images, kissing the images, "serving" the images..

And you ALSO don't see "prayers to Angels". They are never objects of worship.

Details matter.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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So then you think the Protestant Reformation was a "bad idea"??
I believe that the reformation was necessary. But is anyone less saved if they believe the Catholic ten commandments over the protestant ten commandments. Why stop there. The protestant bible has 66 books but the Catholic bible has 72 books. Are catholics less saved because their bible has more books?
 
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What you don't see - is prayers to those images, kissing the images, "serving" the images..

And you ALSO don't see "prayers to Angels". They are never objects of worship.

Details matter.

in Christ,

Bob
I agree with that statement. There is a fine line between making an image of God or a saint and worshiping the image of God or the saint.
 
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Fireinfolding

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The error was implying that Hezekiah was an Iconoclast or that Scripture condones Iconoclasm. Otherwise, what is the point? We have already said that Hezekiah would have been considered overzealous. We would like to move on to something else, such as the topic of the OP, or the misinterpretation of the Second Commandment, because there is nothing more to that topic that is worth discussing.

The Horse, He's dead, Jim.

Hi Eugene,

I dont particularly chose to discuss anything with you personally, you sort of attached yourself to me, not me you.

On the contrary I believe by default Hezekiah would be considered a iconoclast because he destroyed all their other images and idols which God "did not" tell them to make. Which is why I believe He would be considered one, because he would likely be removing all you guys pictures and the other's graven ones (all of which might be called "holy icons" even though I am not seeing it) and since Hezekiah destroyed more of those things then anything God had commanded to be made (like the brasen serpent) or the ark. I still think Hezekiah would be considered an iconoclast to those making and worshipping these things as they do. Who might justify them as being holy icons but arent really. Regardless, either way both were broken to pieces, the one, which was made by commandment and many more that were not made so by commandment. And so he would be seen (and obviously so) in a less then favourable light in the sight of men who love these things, bowing down before them or censing them (whether icon or idol) we see both being broken to pieces. He seemed to be looked upon favourable back then (in God's sight) in doing what was right.

I would think the graven images would then be figures men made unto themselves without His commandment to do so in His house and would probably be looked upon as idols to be broken to pieces.

I havent seen where God has said go and make unto yourself all these graven images to fall before as they do today. Although I do know, they are supposed to be "holy icons" (like something considered equal to the brasen serpent God commanded Moses to make) but I cant say I am really buying it.

But then again, I dont really have to.

Well, move on as you say since this is dead to you.
 
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BobRyan

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Catholic Ten Commandments

1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
4. Honor your father and your mother
5. You shall not kill
6. You shall not commit adultery
7. You shall not steal
8. You shall not bear false witness
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
10.You shall not covet your neighbor's goods

Is it your claim that "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" is the SAME thing as "Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day" -- or is it your claim that Catholics CHANGED that commandment to say something else?
 
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BobRyan

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I believe that the reformation was necessary. But is anyone less saved if they believe the Catholic ten commandments over the protestant ten commandments. Why stop there. The protestant bible has 66 books but the Catholic bible has 72 books. Are catholics less saved because their bible has more books?

The Reformers where in fact "protesting Catholics" they were Catholics protesting doctrine and tradition that had gone into error - to the point of being burned alive for raising the complaint in many cases.

Was it "much ado about little or nothing"??

The difference in the Bibles is the Jewish Old Testament (of 39 books -- in the Christian bible) which are the exact same books "in content" as the Jews use except they are grouped differently. The Catholics "added to the OT" -- not the NT.

Jerome included a prologue to his translation in Latin (Vulgate) to identify the spurious Apocryphal books stating that they are Apocryphal not canonical.

Jerome completed his version of the Bible, the Latin Vulgate, in 405. In the Middle Ages the Vulgate became the de facto standard version of the Bible in the West. The Vulgate manuscripts included prologues[12] that Jerome clearly identified certain books of the Vulgate Old Testament as apocryphal or non-canonical.

In the prologue to the books of Samuel and Kings, which is often called the Prologus Galeatus, he says:[13]

This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a “helmeted” introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is not found in our list must be placed amongst the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom, therefore, which generally bears the name of Solomon, and the book of Jesus, the Son of Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd are not in the canon. The first book of Maccabees I have found to be Hebrew, the second is Greek, as can be proved from the very style.

In the prologue to Esdras he mentions 3 and 4 Esdras as being apocrypha.[14] In his prologue to the books of Solomon, he says:[15]

Also included is the book of the model of virtue (παναρετος) Jesus son of Sirach, and another falsely ascribed work (ψευδεπιγραφος) which is titled Wisdom of Solomon. The former of these I have also found in Hebrew, titled not Ecclesiasticus as among the Latins, but Parables, to which were joined Ecclesiastes and Song of Songs, as though it made of equal worth the likeness not only of the number of the books of Solomon, but also the kind of subjects. The second was never among the Hebrews, the very style of which reeks of Greek eloquence. And none of the ancient scribes affirm this one is of Philo Judaeus. Therefore, just as the Church also reads the books of Judith, Tobias, and the Maccabees, but does not receive them among the the canonical Scriptures, so also one may read these two scrolls for the strengthening of the people, (but) not for confirming the authority of ecclesiastical dogmas.
He mentions the book of Baruch in his prologue to the Jeremias and does not explicitly refer to it as apocryphal, but he does mention that "it is neither read nor held among the Hebrews".[16] In his prologue to the Judith he mentions that "among the Hebrews, the authority [of Judith] came into contention", but that it was "counted in the number of Sacred Scriptures" by the First Council of Nicaea.[17] In his reply to Rufinus, he affirmed that he was consistent with the choice of the church regarding which version of the deuterocanonical portions of Daniel to use, which the Jews of his day did not include:

What sin have I committed in following the judgment of the churches? But when I repeat what the Jews say against the Story of Susanna and the Hymn of the Three Children, and the fables of Bel and the Dragon, which are not contained in the Hebrew Bible, the man who makes this a charge against me proves himself to be a fool and a slanderer; for I explained not what I thought but what they commonly say against us. (Against Rufinus, II:33 [AD 402]).[18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha#Vulgate_prologues


Ask yourself this - how many Catholics were there in the OT - to do that "adding"?
 
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sculleywr

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So then you think the Protestant Reformation was a "bad idea"??
It was a good motivation, but bad idea and methodology. They wound up further from the Apostolic Truth than they started, if the current Pluralistic kerfuffle tells us anything.
 
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sculleywr

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Hi Eugene,

I dont particularly chose to discuss anything with you personally, you sort of attached yourself to me, not me you.

On the contrary I believe by default Hezekiah would be considered a iconoclast because he destroyed all their other images and idols which God "did not" tell them to make. Which is why I believe He would be considered one, because he would likely be removing all you guys pictures and the other's graven ones (all of which might be called "holy icons" even though I am not seeing it) and since Hezekiah destroyed more of those things then anything God had commanded to be made (like the brasen serpent) or the ark. I still think Hezekiah would be considered an iconoclast to those making and worshipping these things as they do. Who might justify them as being holy icons but arent really. Regardless, either way both were broken to pieces, the one, which was made by commandment and many more that were not made so by commandment. And so he would be seen (and obviously so) in a less then favourable light in the sight of men who love these things, bowing down before them or censing them (whether icon or idol) we see both being broken to pieces. He seemed to be looked upon favourable back then (in God's sight) in doing what was right.

I would think the graven images would then be figures men made unto themselves without His commandment to do so in His house and would probably be looked upon as idols to be broken to pieces.

I havent seen where God has said go and make unto yourself all these graven images to fall before as they do today. Although I do know, they are supposed to be "holy icons" (like something considered equal to the brasen serpent God commanded Moses to make) but I cant say I am really buying it.

But then again, I dont really have to.

Well, move on as you say since this is dead to you.
The destruction of idols would not make one an iconoclast. Your error is in assuming we Orthodox or the Roman Catholics WORSHIP the Icons, as you just accused us by implication of doing. If you were not, then the reference to those who worship the images makes no sense in ANY discussion on the Christian-Only Forum in the context which you made it.

See, now you have injected further self-defeating arguments into your stance. You're arguing that idolaters would call you an iconoclast, which I believe would, by your hypothetical idolater's standards, make the many Saints and Orthodox authorities which have destroyed and melted down idols iconoclasts, as well. Granted, I don't know any actual proper idol worshipers myself, so I'm no authority on whether they would even use and understand the term, though I'm guessing there is at least one religious group that might somewhere out there.

As far as the Orthodox or Roman Catholic Churches would be concerned, Hezekiah would not be considered an Iconoclast in our time. He would be considered over-zealous, but not an Iconoclast, because he did not destroy the images within the temple which were not being worshiped. The only God-ordained object he destroyed was an object which was being possibly (and that's still not made clear in the text) worshiped. While his intention was good, it was misguided, much like modern Iconoclasm. Iconoclasts argue that allowing the possibility that they will be worshiped will lead to worship. However, much like the scare on voter fraud or the refugee vetting process, you're looking at an occurrence of idol worship being applied to Icons in a percent of a percent range. It's virtually unheard of.


The fact is, Christ was around when Icons were a massive part of Hebrew culture, filling synagogues, catacombs, and the Temple. If they were wrong, then Christ would have said something against them. However, the closest a person can come is a reference to the condemnation of their manmade traditions. However, since the statement was so vague about which traditions Christ was speaking of, the use of Icons from the first century on in the Church when one looks at the ruins of early churches and the houses of early Christians is evidence that Christ didn't mean Iconography.

Besides that, the miracles which are attached to Icons are evidence that there are items used today by God, much like the Apostle's handkerchief.
 
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sculleywr

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What you don't see - is prayers to those images, kissing the images, "serving" the images..

And you ALSO don't see "prayers to Angels". They are never objects of worship.

Details matter.

in Christ,

Bob
I kiss my fiance. I ask my fiance to pray for me as I struggle with a disease I will live with the rest of my life. I serve my fiance, bringing her gifts, doing her favors, and finding ways to fill her needs.

If that is worship, Bob, then I must worship my fiance.

Just because a person serves, kisses, prays to (literal meaning of pray being make a request of someone) another person or even angel doesn't mean they are worshiping the recipient of that kiss, service, or prayer. Remember, the word prayer does not necessitate the person being a spirit. Any time you make a prayer request of someone, you have prayed to them.
 
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sculleywr

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The Reformers where in fact "protesting Catholics" they were Catholics protesting doctrine and tradition that had gone into error - to the point of being burned alive for raising the complaint in many cases.

Was it "much ado about little or nothing"??

The difference in the Bibles is the Jewish Old Testament (of 39 books -- in the Christian bible) which are the exact same books "in content" as the Jews use except they are grouped differently. The Catholics "added to the OT" -- not the NT.

Jerome included a prologue to his translation in Latin (Vulgate) to identify the spurious Apocryphal books stating that they are Apocryphal not canonical.




Ask yourself this - how many Catholics were there in the OT - to do that "adding"?
Yes, the Masoretic canon is the CURRENT Jewish canon, but it is not the canon of the first Church. The canon of the Early Church is the Septuagint, as evidenced in its heavy use in the New Testament and in its continued use in the Early Church. It wasn't until well after the Jews had murdered Christ, lost the temple, and become completely based on the sect of the Pharisees, that the Jews designed a canon of their own, nearly 200 years after the Christian Church chose their canon of the Old Testament in the Greek Septuagint. So, Protestants use a Pharisaical canon designed by people who rejected Christ, and Orthodox and Roman Catholics use a canon designed by people who were murdered, tortured, exiled, jailed, publicly humiliated, and forced into slavery for Christ.

I wonder which canon a person should use. The canon of the martyrs, or the canon of the martyrers.
 
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The Reformers where in fact "protesting Catholics" they were Catholics protesting doctrine and tradition that had gone into error - to the point of being burned alive for raising the complaint in many cases.

Was it "much ado about little or nothing"??

The difference in the Bibles is the Jewish Old Testament (of 39 books -- in the Christian bible) which are the exact same books "in content" as the Jews use except they are grouped differently. The Catholics "added to the OT" -- not the NT.

Jerome included a prologue to his translation in Latin (Vulgate) to identify the spurious Apocryphal books stating that they are Apocryphal not canonical.




Ask yourself this - how many Catholics were there in the OT - to do that "adding"?
So you agree that Catholics are saved just as much a protestants since the only differing books are in the old testament?
 
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Fireinfolding

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The destruction of idols would not make one an iconoclast. Your error is in assuming we Orthodox or the Roman Catholics WORSHIP the Icons, as you just accused us by implication of doing. If you were not, then the reference to those who worship the images makes no sense in ANY discussion on the Christian-Only Forum in the context which you made it.

See, now you have injected further self-defeating arguments into your stance. You're arguing that idolaters would call you an iconoclast, which I believe would, by your hypothetical idolater's standards, make the many Saints and Orthodox authorities which have destroyed and melted down idols iconoclasts, as well. Granted, I don't know any actual proper idol worshipers myself, so I'm no authority on whether they would even use and understand the term, though I'm guessing there is at least one religious group that might somewhere out there.

As far as the Orthodox or Roman Catholic Churches would be concerned, Hezekiah would not be considered an Iconoclast in our time. He would be considered over-zealous, but not an Iconoclast, because he did not destroy the images within the temple which were not being worshiped. The only God-ordained object he destroyed was an object which was being possibly (and that's still not made clear in the text) worshiped. While his intention was good, it was misguided, much like modern Iconoclasm. Iconoclasts argue that allowing the possibility that they will be worshiped will lead to worship. However, much like the scare on voter fraud or the refugee vetting process, you're looking at an occurrence of idol worship being applied to Icons in a percent of a percent range. It's virtually unheard of.


The fact is, Christ was around when Icons were a massive part of Hebrew culture, filling synagogues, catacombs, and the Temple. If they were wrong, then Christ would have said something against them. However, the closest a person can come is a reference to the condemnation of their manmade traditions. However, since the statement was so vague about which traditions Christ was speaking of, the use of Icons from the first century on in the Church when one looks at the ruins of early churches and the houses of early Christians is evidence that Christ didn't mean Iconography.

Besides that, the miracles which are attached to Icons are evidence that there are items used today by God, much like the Apostle's handkerchief.

I thought this was a dead and you wanted me to move on? ^_^

I would think those who kiss, bow, or pray before graven images, as well as cense icons were equally treated by Hezekiah. So whether your "unholy idol "was brass or your "holy icon" was brass they were quacking like brass worshipping ducks before them and he whacked all their stuff.

He did that without making much of a distinction between idol (unholy) or icon (holy) Hezekiah broke both their objects of worship. Neither of these idolators were going to like Hezekiah today is all I am saying. One of them would likely call him an iconoclast because you wont hear anyone say the image they bowing before, or praying in front of or censing to is an unholy thing.

Idolclast or iconclast, or thing of brass smasher, whatever, if you blew smoke at it he would likely brake it ^_^
 
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