God will Save ALL - Even those considered unorthodox by many denominations

[CrownCaster]

Man, that is just too much grandstanding to sift through. The op is a nice thought but it is not Biblical. Lots of people who dont want to accept what the Bible says come up with this universal salvation idea. It is nice and fluffy but together with fifty cents you dont have anything more then enough to buy a soda.

 

[ONE WHO REMAINS]

GodsWatchman, man listen and listen with an open heart and an opened mind. Throwing versus out meens nothing. To be perfectly honest your views are not true and unrealistic. Satan knew every word of the bible front to back. He used it to tempt Jesus. And do not alter the meening of the book of God to meen something else. If you want to talk one on one about the interpretation we will. But to claim you know these things and this is how it is, is false prophecy. And yes, those who aren't saved will burn in hell forever. Those who's names are in the book of life will have eternal life(forever) in heaven with God. Thats why in revelation John refers to hell as the second death. Get your facts in line before you try to talk smart to others.

 

[disciple00]

GodsWatchman, man listen and listen with an open heart and an opened mind. Throwing versus out meens nothing. To be perfectly honest your views are not true and unrealistic. Satan knew every word of the bible front to back. He used it to tempt Jesus. And do not alter the meening of the book of God to meen something else. If you want to talk one on one about the interpretation we will. But to claim you know these things and this is how it is, is false prophecy. And yes, those who aren't saved will burn in hell forever. Those who's names are in the book of life will have eternal life(forever) in heaven with God. Thats why in revelation John refers to hell as the second death. Get your facts in line before you try to talk smart to others.

actually, the lake fo fire is refered to as ''the second death'' and the same scripture says that Hell shall be cast into the lake of fire. ''Get your facts in line before you try to talk smart to others.'' well said, physician, heal thyself!

regards

disciple00

 

[StudentoftheWord]

Here is some oldies!

 

[Benoni]

I believe every word that the Bible says about the lake of fire; I don't believe what Rome says about it, nor what the apostate Churches say about it, nor what tradition says about it; but I certainly believe what the Bible says about it.

The teaching concerning the lake of fire does not appear anywhere in Scripture except in the book of Revelation where it is spoken of in the following passages: Rev. 14:10-11; 19:20; 20:10; 20:13-15 and 21:8. This last passage definitely states, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolators, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." There should be no question remaining as to the certainty of this lake of fire; neither should there be any doubt as to the awful consequence of having to be cast into it. These Scriptures with their dreadful foreboding should be a fearful warning to all unthinking and foolish people who, because of their love for the world, the flesh, and the devil, have dared to ask why we should serve God now if all are going to be saved eventually. Such people have no love for God nor fear of God, and they manifest by what they say that their professed serving of God is only a pretense, arising - not from any true love for Him - but from fear of punishment. If there were no prospect of hell these would promptly tell God to go to hell and they would, themselves, go to the devil. It is not thus with those who truly love God, for they serve not from fear, but from pure love and devotion. Remove punishment completely from the universe, and they would still serve God with all their hearts.

Because of the gross misunderstanding of almost all people concerning the lake of fire, I would like to draw your attention to three words found in the passage quoted above. "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which BURNS with FIRE and BRIMSTONE: which is the second death." The word BURN means combustion, or to consume. To consume does not mean to annihilate, for there is no such thing as annihilation in the absolute sense. When fire consumes a log in your fireplace it does not destroy any of the elements within the log, it merely changes their form. Combustion is the process by which chemicals combine to form new chemicals. For example: a tree might be cut down, sawed into fire wood, and burned. When the wood is burning the heat causes the chemicals of which the wood is composed to vaporize, mixing with the oxygen in the air to form new chemicals, including water and the gas carbon dioxide. So what was formerly a tree is no longer identified as the form of a tree, but the substance thereof is now simply CHANGED into a DIFFERENT FORM and exists in its new form within the atmosphere as water, carbon dioxide, etc. Thus, to bum, means to CHANGE. Furthermore, it is interesting to note that fire does not burn down; it always burns up; it seeks the highest level. And all that it consumes "goes up in smoke," to exist in a new form in a higher dimension. Even if you take a pan of water and place it over a fire, before long the water will take on the property of the fire and will begin to go up in steam. To burn means to CHANGE, and the change is always UPWARD in its motion.

In my study of the lake that burns with fire and brimstone I was very much helped and impressed by the understanding given by Charles Pridgeon and I would like to quote from his scholarly work on the subject of BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" -end quote.

I realize that the above thoughts define the subject very briefly, but let us summarize the meanings thus: BURN means combustion; to change the form of. FIRE means heat and light. BRIMSTONE means divine. Putting these three together can we not see that the lake burning with fire and brimstone is, actually, DIVINE HEAT AND LIGHT PRODUCING A CHANGE! Is such a process eternal? All the laws of nature shout that it is not! More than 2500 years ago the Holy Spirit warned the wicked inhabitants of Jerusalem that God would kindle a fire at Jerusalem's gates which would devour her palaces. "But if you will not hearken unto Me ... then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not he quenched" (Jer. 17:27). Did not God say this fire "shall NOT BE QUENCHED?" This prophecy was fulfilled and the fire did occur a few years later and it did destroy all the houses of Jerusalem (Jer. 52:13). Since God said no person or thing would "quench" this fire, did that mean that it would burn for ever? Since it accomplished the work it was sent to do, and since it is NOT BURNING TODAY, it obviously went out by itself after accomplishing its purpose! Unquenchable fire is not eternal fire - it is simply fire that cannot be put out until it has consumed or changed everything it is possible for it to change! It then simply goes out, for there is nothing more to burn. Yet I hear the preachers ranting and raving about poor souls being cast into bell fire where "their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" and this, we are told, means eternal, unending torment. How foolish, illogical, and deceptive! Such a view contradicts the plain meaning of the term "unquenchable" and its use in the Word of God.

Are the judgments of God permanent? Isaiah says, "When Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness" (Isa. 26:9).

And Mat. 12:20 says, "A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory."

Judgment, therefore, is not an eternal condition, but it is given to produce that victory. Judgments of themselves do not save anyone, but they are used by God to bring one to one's self, to effect a change of attitude and will, to consume away the stubbornness and rebellion of men. Punishment by fire is a beneficent one. "Our GOD is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). The basic purpose of this divine fire of God is to cleanse, purify, purge, temper and change. It is to rid of impurities, of filth, of undesirable elements. There is no better way to deal with filth than to deal with it by fire.
The punishment by penal fire leads back to the beginning of things. The final work of God in this world will be the destruction of the world (order) by penal fire. That will change all things. That will melt all the elements, so that no man can tell you where his original grab was. It will burn up all the governments, institutions, systems, and fruitage of the carnal mind. It will melt all the customs, cultures, traditions, and practices of society and make of this earth a new earth wherein dwells righteousness. Every man's work will eventually be tested in this fire. The fire will try every man's work of what sort it is. If you and I build into our walls wood, hay, and stubble, that fire will find it out, and the wall will come tumbling down. When God turns on the HEAT, the BLAZING LIGHT OF HIS SPIRIT AND WORD - some things begin to change! The fire is never sent to destroy the PERSON, but to purge out all that hinders and separates him from his God, to consume the pride, arrogance, hostility, defiance, and rebellion of the flesh, the carnal mind, that He might then be wooed and drawn by the Holy Spirit unto the Father of Spirits and live.

More than three centuries ago when the Black Plague swept through London, England, more than 68,000 men, women, and children were sickened with the putrid fever, suffered nameless agonies, passed into delirium, sometimes with convulsions, and then died. Before the end of the terrible nightmare of anguish and death, what was thought to be an even greater tragedy occured. The city caught fire, the whole heavens were ablaze as the Great Fire destroyed more than 13,200 homes and 89 churches. Most of the city, which was built largely of wood, lay in ashes. Wonder of wonders! As soon as the last dying embers cooled and the smoke cleared, the inhabitants of the city discovered that the Plague had been stayed! Not another person died of the epidemic. The Plague never returned. The fire had killed the bacteria-carrying fleas and rats that caused the Plague. It took a fire to do it! Fire is a great cleanser, purifier, and changer.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Benoni,

Nice post.

 

[2ducklow]

In my study of the lake that burns with fire and brimstone I was very much helped and impressed by the understanding given by Charles Pridgeon and I would like to quote from his scholarly work on the subject of BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" -end quote.

The consuming fire of God consumes all until only christ is left in the person. the unsaved have not christ therefore they are continually consumed and christ is never revealed.

In Revelation 19:20, 21:8 & 20:14 -15 we read of "the LAKE OF FIRE which burns with BRIMSTONE." The word BRIMSTONE comes from the Greek word "theion" #2303 and means, "FIRE FROM HEAVEN/GOD."Strong"

Concordance refers to #2304 "theios" which is from "theos" #2316 "theos" meaning GOD. E.W. Bullinger defined brimstone as, "fire from heaven, (places touched by lightening were called "theia," as lightening leaves a sulphurous smell, and sulphur was used in heathen purification, it got the name of "theion." Brimstone (from brienne or brin, i.e. burn and stone, from heathen uses in their religions, God made it an instrument of His vengeance on the heathen." There are a number of O.T. and N.T. references to brimstone - - -."
Sinners, DEATH and HELL, were cast into the "lake of fire." Hell is from Greek "hades", or Hebrew "sheol." Both mean the grave, or place of the dead. The Bible calls it THE SECOND DEATH." This is the END of DEATH and of HELL. 1 Corinthians 15:26 reads, "The last enemy that will be destroyed is death." The LAST means, the FINAL enemy of man. "DESTROYED," from the Greek, "katargeo" #2673, means; abolished, made of no effect, vanished, made void, to render entirely idle or inoperative. Remember, FIRE CHANGES THINGS and, "OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE."
Let the purifying fire of our Lord do it's work, until all that remains is the GOLD OF CHRIST within each, and all, of us.
Blessings
Kenneth

http://greater-emmanuel.org/kg/kg8.html

the purpose of the lake of fire is to purify the universe of all evil till only christ remains in man. those that have not christ are totally consumed and nothing of Christ in them remains as it does in us, because Christ was never in them.

So even if the lake of fire is the fire of god that purifys, which it aint, it still destroys them. why? because the fire of God does not torment men. the lake of fire torments men endlessly aionion, forever.

So the lake of divine purification flunks on both accounts.

 

[Kimberlyann]

2ducklow,

Show me where it says that the Lake of Fire tortures men endlessly.

In Dante's inferno, "all hope is gone..." , but in Gods realm He subjects all creation ... "in HOPE"

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Romans 8 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]8:21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. [/FONT]

 

[2ducklow]

2ducklow,

Show me where it says that the Lake of Fire tortures men endlessly.

In Dante's inferno, "all hope is gone..." , but in Gods realm He subjects all creation ... "in HOPE"

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Romans 8 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]8:21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. [/FONT]

I misspoke myself. I should have said torment not torture.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

for ever and ever = endlessly.

2. How do we reconcile the lake of fire with God being love?
The Bible says God is love, but it never says God is all-loving. God is the most loving being in the universe, but He is the most wrathful too. The Lake of Fire is not loving towards those who are in it, so there is no point in attempting to say that somehow it is loving to make people go there. This question of how to reconcile the two is answered in Romans 11:22, Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." So we have a wrong concept if we consider God as only love. We are to consider both the kindness and sternness of God.

http://www.biblequery.org/Doctrine/Hell/SecondDeath.htm

Romans 11:22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

God deals severly with those not in the book of life by casting them in the lake of fire where they are tormented day and night for ever.


torment = severity

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

those without christ have no hope.

 

[Havahope]

for ever and ever = endlessly.

If the first "ever" means endless, what was the point of the second "ever"?

It is impossible that there can be two "evers".


A typographical error, maybe?

Or could it be maybe a hyperbole?

 

[Kimberlyann]

2ducklow,

It is automatically assumed without any Scriptural proof whatsoever, that when one is "thrown into the lake of fire" that (1) It is literal fire that causes physical pain and torment. And/or (2) It causes physical death and annihilation. And/or (3) There is no escape and it lasts for all eternity
Let’s be precise now and see what the Scriptures actually tell us about all those sinning people AFTER they are thrown into a lake of fire. Rev. 20:10 only mentions the beast and false prophet along with Satan the Adversary as being cast into the lake of fire. No sinners are thrown in at this point. But after we are presented with the great white throne in verse 11, and all the dead being judged in verse 12, we come to verse 15 where sinning people are cast into the lake of fire. Let’s read it:

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was CAST into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:19)​

Are they TORTURED by this fire? It doesn’t say.

Are they KILLED, do they die? It doesn’t say.

Do they ever COME OUT? It doesn’t say.

How LONG does this lake of fire last? It doesn’t say.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall HAVE THEIR PART in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).​

Is this group of sinners TORTURED by this fire? It doesn’t say.

Are they KILLED, do they DIE in this lake of fire/second death? It doesn’t say.

Do they ever COME OUT? It doesn’t say.

How LONG does this lake of fire/second death last? It doesn’t say.
So from these verses alone, what do we know for sure happens to these sinners AFTER they are cast into this lake of fire? Nothing. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Do either of these two verses SAY ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about what takes place in this lake of fire/second death or how long it will last? NO! NO IT DOESN’T! NOT EVEN ONE SINGLE SOLITARY WORD -- NONE, ZERO, ZILCH!
Then HOW ... HOW PRAY TELL ... do all these Christian religions of the world know for sure that the sinners cast into the lake of fire/second death, actually do suffer in unbearable torture, and that this torture lasts for all eternity, or as others say, they are annihilated for all eternity from which there will never be a resurrection? How do they KNOW all this stuff for sure? Well, of course, THEY DON’T KNOW! They ASSUME! They SPECULATE! And some of them lie.
So there, you have seen it with your own eyes. These Scriptures in Revelation 20 and 21 do not really, actually, factually, literally, say what theologians claim, do they? No, they DON’T!

by L. Ray Smith

I posted the above quote in a different thread earlier, did you get a chance to read it?

 

[red77]

2ducklow........As the universalism thread is presently locked I'm going to pick up on some of your posts here, in one post you said this..........:

I just accept and belive rev. 20 it says those not in the book of life are tormented for ever and ever in a lake of fire that burns for ever and ever. the unitarian argument that the word doesn't mean eternal or forever is ridiculous for you would have us believe that the greeks never said for ever and never said eternal. there is no other word for eternal but aijwvn Aion (ahee-ohn');

And then in response to being prooved incorrect on the matter you post :

I just said that to see if there was another word for eternal besides aion. So there is one example in the entire new testament where the word aidos is used which means eternal. thanks for the info I didn't have to look it up. To assert that the NT only says for ever or eternal one time is ridiculous.

You just posted it to 'see' if there was another word...............? In your original post you categorically claimed 'aion' to be the only word defined as eternal.......in big bold letters to boot.............it seems that whenever you're pulled up on something its all some kind of intentional plan on your part and I just dont buy it.............before making sweeping statements such as 'aion' being the only word to mean eternal it would have been a good idea to check your sources to make sure you were right, you weren't and are trying to somehow justify your ignorance on the matter...because all this has actually shown is total ignorance on your part as far as I'm concerned and quite frankly disingenuous debate as well, there was no way this was a 'plan' of yours and you're just trying to cover your tracks......either way your whole concept of eternal torment must have been based on the word 'aion' as you had no idea that 'aidios' is the primary greek definition for eternal...........now that its been established that 'aidios' is in fact the correct word to use for eternity I wonder why it wasn't if eternal torment was meant to be conveyed.............seems like HMS Hellfire Titanic' may have just run into an iceberg...........(to coin a phrase)

 

[2ducklow]

2ducklow........As the universalism thread is presently locked I'm going to pick up on some of your posts here, in one post you said this..........:



And then in response to being prooved incorrect on the matter you post :



You just posted it to 'see' if there was another word...............? In your original post you categorically claimed 'aion' to be the only word defined as eternal.......in big bold letters to boot.............it seems that whenever you're pulled up on something its all some kind of intentional plan on your part and I just dont buy it.............before making sweeping statements such as 'aion' being the only word to mean eternal it would have been a good idea to check your sources to make sure you were right, you weren't and are trying to somehow justify your ignorance on the matter...because all this has actually shown is total ignorance on your part as far as I'm concerned and quite frankly disingenuous debate as well, there was no way this was a 'plan' of yours and you're just trying to cover your tracks......either way your whole concept of eternal torment must have been based on the word 'aion' as you had no idea that 'aidios' is the primary greek definition for eternal...........now that its been established that 'aidios' is in fact the correct word to use for eternity I wonder why it wasn't if eternal torment was meant to be conveyed.............seems like HMS Hellfire Titanic' may have just run into an iceberg...........(to coin a phrase)

Aidios only occurs one time. It is ridiculous to claim the NT only says forever or eternal one time.

The Greek Word "Aionios" and its "Eternal" Meaning​

The 48 citations bellow are taken from some of the most scholarly and respected Greek Lexicons, Greek Dictionaries, Greek-English Interlinears, Greek Manuals, Greek Linguistic keys, New Testament word studies, Bible Dictionaries, Bible Encyclopedias, each support "Aionios" meaning as endless (using such terms as: endless, eternal, everlasting, and perpetual)

"...eternal,...(a) of that which is without either beginning or end; Ro 16:26, He 9:14; (b) of that which is without beginning: Ro 16:25, II Ti 1:9, *** 1:2; (c) of that which is without end." (A Manual Lexicon of the New Testament, by G Abbott- Smith D.D, D.C.L., 1929, p. 15)
"Aionios is the usual word for eternal, everlasting. Literally it means age-long. Since an age is the longest time which the human mind can conceive clearly, Aionios came to be used for infinity of time, whether conceived as unending duration, or as existence in which past and future are always present" (The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary, General Editor Merril C. Tenney, 1967, P. 262)
"Eternal, Greek expression Aionios" (Holman Treasury of Key Bible Words, by Eugene E. Carpenter, 2000, p.275)
"Aionios . . . indeterminate as to duration, eternal, everlasting" (Greek and English Lexicon to the New Testament, By Rev. Thomas Sheldon Green M.A., 1973, p. 5)
“Gr. aionios eternal; aion eternal… In the NT, aionios is used as eternal damnation, eternal life, eternal purpose, the King eternal, and so on.” (The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, Edited by Merrill C Tenney, 1976, Vol. 2, p 380-381)
"Aionios. . . ov eternal. . .3. with out end" (A Greek-English Lexicon of The New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, by Frederick W. Danker, Walter Bauer, William Arndt, 1979, p. 28)
"aionios is an adjectival form derived from aion , above, with the principal meanings 'eternal,' 'everlasting.' The meaning 'eternal' in the sense of 'unending' is found in relation to the judgment of hell fire in Mat. 18: 8; 25:41." (Expository Dictionary of Bible Words, by Stephen D. Renn, 2005, p.341)
"aionios... we must note that outside the New Testament, in the vernacular as well as in classical Greek (see Grimm-Thayer), it never loses the sense of perpetuus." (Treasures From The Greek New Testament, by Kenneth S. Wuest, 1969 p.35)
"Aionios . . . ever-lasting, eternal" (An Intermediate Greek - English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, Oxford, impression of 1991, p. 25)
"The Greek word for 'eternal' is Aionios" (New International Encyclopedia of Bible Words, by Lawrence O. Richards Th.M. Ph.D. , 1991, p. 250)
"166. Aionios . . . 3. Without end, never to cease, everlasting" (New Thayer's Greek- English Lexicon to the New Testament, By Joseph Henry Thayer D.D, 1979, p.20)
"Aionios. . . Without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Greek- English Lexicon to the New Testament, by W.J. Hickie M.A, 1945, p. 6)
"Aionios. . . Eternal, perpetual, forever, endless, ageless, dateless, timeless, everlasting, infinite, permanent, ceaseless." (Practical Word Studies in the New Testament, 1998, Vol.1, p.700)
"This is the first use in Matthew of Aionios. . . .The word means ageless, without beginning or end as of God (Rom. 16:z6), without beginning as in Rom. 16:25, without end as here and often." (Word Pictures in the New Testament, by A. T. Robertson, 1930, Vol. 1, p.147)
Jude 7 "Aionios. . . Eternal" [The Interlinear Greek- English New Testament, by Alfred Marshall D. Litt., 1975, p.721]
"Forever (eis tous aionios) is eternity as well as the Greek can say it" (Word Pictures in the New Testament, by A. T. Robertson, 1930, Vol. 5, p. 447) Heb 13:8
"The word aionios (from aion, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language." (Word Pictures in the New Testament, by A. T. Robertson, 1930, Vol. I, p. 202)
"aionios the meaning 'eternal,' 'everlasting." (Elwell’s Evangelical Dictionary, by Walter A. Elwell, from CD ROM)
"Furthermore (eis tous aionios tôn aionon). ‘Unto the ages of the ages,’ a stronger expression of eternity even than in #1:6." (Word Pictures in the New Testament, by A. T. Robertson, 1930, Vol. 6, p. 294)
"The duration of hell is explicitly indicated in the NT. The word "everlasting" (aionios)" (The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary, General Editor Merril C. Tenney, 1967, P.347)
"Aionios . . . indeterminate as to duration, eternal, everlasting" (The Analytical Greek Lexicon, By By Harold K. Moulton,1978, P.382)
"Aionios age-long, and therefore, eternal, unending " (A Pocket Lexicon To The Greek New Testament, by Alexander Souter M.A., 1946, P. 9)
Jude 7 "Aionios. . . Eternal" [The Interlinear Greek- English New Testament, by Goerge Ricker Berry, Ph.D., 1976, p.621]
"Aionios adj. eternal, everlasting. ... (c) with out end" (The New Englishman's Greek Concordance and Lexicon, by Wigram - Green, 1982, p. 24)
"Aionios . . . 3. Without end, never to cease, everlasting" (The New Testament Greek Lexicon, online)
"The phrase "for ever and ever" (eis tous aionas aionon) occurs 20 times in N. T.: 16 times of God, once of the saints’ future blessedness, the three remaining of the punishment of the wicked and of the evil one; is it likely it is used 17 times of absolute eternity. . . . The term for ‘everlasting’ (aidiois) in Jude 6." (Bible Cyclopedia, By The Rev. A. R. Fausset, M. A., 1909,Page 281)
"The wicked are cast down into Go (Mt 5 29 f., 10 29; Mk 9 43). Sometimes, ho the place of punishment is called outer der (Mt 8 12), or a place where there are wailing gnashing of teeth (Mt 22 13, 24 si), a place of punishment (Lk 16 23) and of unquenchable fire. (Mk 45). Of the duration of this punishment, all may be said is that it is eternal (Aionios... ) just as its counterpart is eternal life for the righteous (Mt 25 46, everlasting AV)." (The New Standard Bible Dictionary, Edited by Melancton W. Jacobus D.D., printed by Funk and Wagnalls Company, 1936, P. 224)
Jude 7 "Aionios. . . Eternal" [The New Greek- English Interlinear New Testament, by Robert K. Brown, Philip W. Comfort and J.D. Douglas, 1990, p. 848]
"Aionios: perpetual ... eternal, for ever, everlasting," (The New Stong's Complete Dictionary of Bible words, 1996, p.571)
"Aionios; Eternal, Everlasting" (The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key To The Greek New Testament by Cleon L. Rodgers III, printed by Zondervan Publishing house, 1998, p.606 )
"Aionios . . . 3. Without end, never to cease, everlasting" (The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon, online)
"Aionios . . . Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom. 16:26; of His power, 1 Tim. 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Pet. 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb. 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb. 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Pet. 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,' 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor. 5:1, elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1 Cor. 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2. "Aionios is also used of the sin that 'hath never forgiveness,' Mark 3:29, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Heb. 6:2, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7, and which is elsewhere said to be 'unquenchable,' Mark 9:43. "The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in 2 Thess. 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive. " (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, unabridged edition, by W. E. Vine M.A., printed by Riverside Book and Bible House, p. 383)
Jude 7 "Aionios. . . Eternal" [The New Interlinear Bible Greek- English, by Jay P. Green Sr., 2005,Vol. IV p. 653]
"Aionios, the adjective corresponding, denoting 'eternal,' is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' 2 Cor. 4:18. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom. 16:26, His power, 1 Tim. 6:16, His glory, 1 Pet. 5:10, the Holy Spirit, Heb. 9:14, redemption, Heb. 9:12, salvation, 5:9, life in Christ, John 3:16, the resurrection body, 2 Cor. 5:1, the future rule of Christ, 2 Pet. 1:11, which is declared to be without end, Luke 1:33, of sin that never has forgiveness, Mark 3:29, the judgment of God, Heb. 6:2, and of fire, one of its instruments, Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7. "(Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, unabridged edition, by W. E. Vine M.A., printed by Riverside Book and Bible House, p. 383)
Jude 7 "Aionios. . . Everlasting" [The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, 1969, p.1070]
"Aionios; 1. very long time, eternity" (Shorter Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, by F. Wilbur Gingrich, printed by The university of Chicago Press, 1965, p.6-7 )​

http://www.catholicapologetics.net/eternal_fire1.htm


Vine's lays the case out quite well above which I highlighted for ainios meanin eternal.
also,

A.T. Robetson says ainios is as close as you can come to saying eternal in greek,highlighted above.

Zondervan says that since ainios was the longest conceivable time one could come up with it came to be used to mean eternal.




​

 

[2ducklow]

hello Kimberlyann;

It is automatically assumed without any Scriptural proof whatsoever, that when one is "thrown into the lake of fire" that (1) It is literal fire that causes physical pain and torment. And/or (2) It causes physical death and annihilation. And/or (3) There is no escape and it lasts for all eternity



Let’s be precise now and see what the Scriptures actually tell us about all those sinning people AFTER they are thrown into a lake of fire. Rev. 20:10 only mentions the beast and false prophet along with Satan the Adversary as being cast into the lake of fire. No sinners are thrown in at this point. But after we are presented with the great white throne in verse 11, and all the dead being judged in verse 12, we come to verse 15 where sinning people are cast into the lake of fire. Let’s read it:

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was CAST into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:19)​

Are they TORTURED by this fire? It doesn’t say.

Are they KILLED, do they die? It doesn’t say.

Do they ever COME OUT? It doesn’t say.




How LONG does this lake of fire last? It doesn’t say.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall HAVE THEIR PART in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).​

Is this group of sinners TORTURED by this fire? It doesn’t say.

Are they KILLED, do they DIE in this lake of fire/second death? It doesn’t say.

Do they ever COME OUT? It doesn’t say.

How LONG does this lake of fire/second death last? It doesn’t say.
So from these verses alone, what do we know for sure happens to these sinners AFTER they are cast into this lake of fire? Nothing. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Do either of these two verses SAY ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about what takes place in this lake of fire/second death or how long it will last? NO! NO IT DOESN’T! NOT EVEN ONE SINGLE SOLITARY WORD -- NONE, ZERO, ZILCH!
Then HOW ... HOW PRAY TELL ... do all these Christian religions of the world know for sure that the sinners cast into the lake of fire/second death, actually do suffer in unbearable torture, and that this torture lasts for all eternity, or as others say, they are annihilated for all eternity from which there will never be a resurrection? How do they KNOW all this stuff for sure? Well, of course, THEY DON’T KNOW! They ASSUME! They SPECULATE! And some of them lie.

The complete description of the Lake of fire is not in one verse.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


verse 10 states that the torment of the lake of fire lasts forever and ever. I find it ridiculous to claim that verse 10 is one lake of fire, and verse 14 that death and hell are cast into is another different lake of fire and verse 15 that those whose names are not written in the book of life is another different lake of fire, and verse 20 where satan and the false prophet are thown into the lake of fire is another different lake of fire.

So there, you have seen it with your own eyes. These Scriptures in Revelation 20 and 21 do not really, actually, factually, literally, say what theologians claim, do they? No, they DON’T!

by L. Ray Smith

his whole argument boils down to this, The 4 usages of the Lake of fire in chapter 20 all refer to 4 different lakes of fire. I find that argument absurd in the extreme. He certainly has given no reason why all four references to the lake of fire in the same chapter of the same book and all within the space of 10 verses cannot be refering to the same Lake of Fire. Common sense tells you they must refer all to the same lake of fire when there are no idicators that they are different lakes of fire. All 4 references to the lake of fire are within the same context also. the context of judgement day.

I would have to say that anyone resorting to this claim( that the four references to the Lake of fire are 4 different lakes of fire) is really desperate to invalidate torment day and night forever and ever (vs. 10) , for those not in the book of life cast into the same lake of fire (vs.15).

 

[katallasso]

Aidios only occurs one time. It is ridiculous to claim the NT only says forever or eternal one time.
[/size][/font]
http://www.catholicapologetics.net/eternal_fire1.htm


Vine's lays the case out quite well above which I highlighted for ainios meanin eternal.
also,

A.T. Robetson says ainios is as close as you can come to saying eternal in greek,highlighted above.

Zondervan says that since ainios was the longest conceivable time one could come up with it came to be used to mean eternal.




[/indent]

Dear Mr. Ducklow,

This is bit of information I put together a while back and I believe it would be helpful at this point of this debate.


Aion Aionios Aidios What is the difference?



Aion....a noun, that means essentially what our word aion or eon means....an age.

Aion, which is greek for aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: "The period which includes the whole time of one's life is called the aeon of each one." So it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160).
It is not limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history.

It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting.

Aionios...an adjective which describes a noun

Since aionios is the word in the NT that is translated "eternal"
it must be mistranslated, because it is the adjective of the noun aion which means "age" and the adjective cannot be of greater value than the noun from which it comes. It just doesn't work that way in kione greek.

1) "...Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this ETERNITY [AIONI], neither in the ETERNITY to come." (Mt. 12:32).

2) "So shall it be at the end of the ETERNITY [AIONOS]...." (Mt. 13:49).

3) "...Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the ETERNITY [AIONOS]." (Mt. 24:3).

4) "Far above all principality...not only in this ETERNITY [AIONI], but also in that which is to come." (Eph. 1:21).

5) "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the ETERNITY [AIONON]...." (1 Cor. 2:7).

6) "Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ETERNITIES, ETERNITY without end [TOU AIONOS TON AIONON]." (Eph. 3:21).

7) "...But now once in the end of the ETERNITY [AIONON] hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." (Heb. 9:26).

And something else that came to mind is how can a word with "age" at it's root be involved with the word "eternity". Because the word "age" connotates time, of which there is none in eternity.


Aidios...eternity

Lexicon Results for aidios (Strong's 126)
Greek for 126
Pronunciation Guide
aidios {ah-id'-ee-os}
TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 1:168,25 from 104
Part of Speech
adj
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) eternal, everlasting
For Synonyms see entry 5801
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count - Total: 2
AV - eternal 1, everlasting 1; 2
Thayer's Lexicon (Help)
Aidios...eternity
Now there is a word for everlasting, it is aidios. Because aidios occurs rarely in the New Testament does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It just goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. It could be that the Father was more interested in His plan for the ages. Paul uses the word in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of "the everlasting power and divinity of God." It is also used in Jude 6. The actual use of aidios should tell us something. If there is actually a greek word for "everlasting" why wasn't it used? Worth thinking about.

kat

 

[red77]

Aidios only occurs one time. It is ridiculous to claim the NT only says forever or eternal one time.
[/size][/font]
http://www.catholicapologetics.net/eternal_fire1.htm


Vine's lays the case out quite well above which I highlighted for ainios meanin eternal.
also,

A.T. Robetson says ainios is as close as you can come to saying eternal in greek,highlighted above.

Zondervan says that since ainios was the longest conceivable time one could come up with it came to be used to mean eternal.




[/indent]

A T Robertson is wrong then...........aidios would be the word used to describe eternity and there is no argument in that.............you're still trying to distort aion into meaning eternal to fit in with your doctrine of eternal punishment where the proper word to have been used would have been aidios.............you cant get around that...........your whole belief in eternal punishment has centred around the assumption that the original greek translations of eternal would have to be aion because of your lack of knowledge of the the word aidios..........you only just became aware of this word yesterday and are just coming up with empty sentences of it would be ridiculous for the NT to only use aidios one time.............it would only be ridiculous to you because of your belief..............it makes perfect sense to those who dont happen to believe that God torments his creations for ever and the fact that aidios is used so rarely should tell you something..............there would be a reason why it was used so sparingly.............aion does not mean eternal...............aidios does so using logic it would be more than reasonable to presume that the only passages where eternity is being referred to are when the proper word used to denote that (aidios) is used..................

 

[2ducklow]

Dear Mr. Ducklow,

This is bit of information I put together a while back and I believe it would be helpful at this point of this debate.


Aion Aionios Aidios What is the difference?



Aion....a noun, that means essentially what our word aion or eon means....an age.

Aion, which is greek for aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: "The period which includes the whole time of one's life is called the aeon of each one." So it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160).
It is not limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history.

It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting.

Aionios...an adjective which describes a noun

Since aionios is the word in the NT that is translated "eternal"
it must be mistranslated, because it is the adjective of the noun aion which means "age" and the adjective cannot be of greater value than the noun from which it comes. It just doesn't work that way in kione greek.

1) "...Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this ETERNITY [AIONI], neither in the ETERNITY to come." (Mt. 12:32).

2) "So shall it be at the end of the ETERNITY [AIONOS]...." (Mt. 13:49).

3) "...Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the ETERNITY [AIONOS]." (Mt. 24:3).

4) "Far above all principality...not only in this ETERNITY [AIONI], but also in that which is to come." (Eph. 1:21).

5) "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the ETERNITY [AIONON]...." (1 Cor. 2:7).

6) "Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ETERNITIES, ETERNITY without end [TOU AIONOS TON AIONON]." (Eph. 3:21).

7) "...But now once in the end of the ETERNITY [AIONON] hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." (Heb. 9:26).

And something else that came to mind is how can a word with "age" at it's root be involved with the word "eternity". Because the word "age" connotates time, of which there is none in eternity.


Aidios...eternity

Lexicon Results for aidios (Strong's 126)
Greek for 126
Pronunciation Guide
aidios {ah-id'-ee-os}
TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 1:168,25 from 104
Part of Speech
adj
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) eternal, everlasting
For Synonyms see entry 5801
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count - Total: 2
AV - eternal 1, everlasting 1; 2
Thayer's Lexicon (Help)
Aidios...eternity
Now there is a word for everlasting, it is aidios. Because aidios occurs rarely in the New Testament does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It just goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. It could be that the Father was more interested in His plan for the ages. Paul uses the word in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of "the everlasting power and divinity of God." It is also used in Jude 6. The actual use of aidios should tell us something. If there is actually a greek word for "everlasting" why wasn't it used? Worth thinking about.

kat

Ainios was used for eternity by the greeks because it was the longest period of time they could imagine, another scholar said in my quote above that ainios came to be used to mean eternity by the greeks. Thayers Greek-English which i quoted some time ago says ainios means age during either endlessly or with an end.
aidios is only used one time in the entire NT.according to one person in here and 2 times by you. I'm sure God inspired NT writers to mention eternity more than once or twice. all of which is proven in my quote from the catholic source above. Probably you didn't read much of it.

 

[red77]

Ainios was used for eternity by the greeks because it was the longest period of time they could imagine, another scholar said in my quote above that ainios came to be used to mean eternity by the greeks. Thayers Greek-English which i quoted some time ago says ainios means age during either endlessly or with an end.
aidios is only used one time in the entire NT.according to one person in here and 2 times by you. I'm sure God inspired NT writers to mention eternity more than once or twice. all of which is proven in my quote from the catholic source above. Probably you didn't read much of it.

More ducking...............you're sure that God inspired writers to mention eternity more than once..............then why didnt they..........? why is the word aidios used so sparingly when the definition is eternal..................maybe the writers were inspired to not use aidios because the actual passages were not meant to indicate eternity..........they could have easily used aidios on all the occasions where according to you aion means eternal and yet they didnt................hmmm..........

 

[katallasso]

I'm sure God inspired NT writers to mention eternity more than once or twice.

You may be sure, but I certainly am not. I see God showing us in His Book a "plan for the ages (aion)". I believe God was more concerned with the revealing of Himself and His plan for redemption which is necessary for us to understand because it teaches us what He plans for eternity.


(NASB) Ephesians 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,

(KJV) Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

(Young) Ephesians 3:11 according to a purpose of the ages, which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord,

(J.N.Darby Translation 1890) Ephesians 3:11 according to [the] purpose of the ages, which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord

(Rotherham) Ephesians 3:11 According to a plan of the ages which he made in the anointed Jesus our Lord,--



This is why I believe the actual word for eternal (aidios) is not used in the NT as often as the proponents of eternal hellfire would like it to be.


Rom 1:20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal (aidios) power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Our God is obviously eternal and the proper word was used here.

 

[2ducklow]

More ducking...............you're sure that God inspired writers to mention eternity more than once..............then why didnt they..........? why is the word aidios used so sparingly when the definition is eternal..................maybe the writers were inspired to not use aidios because the actual passages were not meant to indicate eternity..........they could have easily used aidios on all the occasions where according to you aion means eternal and yet they didnt................hmmm..........

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal (roskarios lit. for a season); but the things which are not seen are eternal (ainios).
one is contrasted to the other, things seen are for a season, things which are not seen are eternal (ainios). makes on sense to translate it 'things which are seen are temporal, things which are not seen are temporal."


Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (ainios) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting (ainios) Amen.
I don't know about you but I believe God has honour and power everlasting (ainios) and not for a couple thousand years only.


1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal (ainios) glory Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
Yea God has eternal glory for sure.
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (ainios)
Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Yep , God has an eternal spirit.


Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal (ainios) salvation
n unto all them that obey him;
Yep I got eternal life not life for a few years only.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting (ainios)
life.
Yep, I believe Jesus, I have everlasting life in him, not life for a few years.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal (ainios)
in the heavens.
Yep my earthly abode will dissolve, but my house made not with hands will never dissolve it is eternal in the heavens, not for just a few years.
2 Peter 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting (ainios)
kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Yep the kingdom of heaven lasts forever, not a just a few years.
Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever (ainios) and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Yep, Jesus will reign for ever cause his kingdom has no end. a kingdom of a few years has an end.

I could go on but you get the idea.