God vs. Science

[cloudyday2]

It doesn't matter how different man-made denominations think about what worshipping God is. God created a Church in which we can meet Him and redeem through Him, He planted wisdom into the Fathers of the Church and they developed this holy doctrines for us to have profound communion with Him. It doesn't matter what people think and if people think they are doing it right, pentecostals, baptists or whatever, they can think it but that wouldn't make it real.

You can't say God didn't gave you guidance, God always guides us, some of us are more pacient than others. St. Mary of Egypt spent in the desert 46 years to get redemption, how much time did you wait? If God "doesn't answer" our prayers as we want to we get mad, but that's not how it's meant to be done. God is not our servant, we must obey, respect and love God no matter if we are rejoicing in glory or if we are swimming in despair, that's why God gave Job all of those calamities, as an example for the world, so we can see that God's saints doesn't love Him only because He gives things to them, but unconditionally.

We can hardly fault skeptics for doubting the existence of God when He is so indifferent to those who seek Him. That is the fundamental conflict between God and science. If God actually helps people, then science would detect his help. So God must choose between hiding and helping.

 

[Wryetui]

Again, that is not true. Why would science have to detect that help and in what manner? You are saying things that you, in your mind think that they need to be that way but let me tell you that reality is different, and what you are saying is utterly ridiculous, God has to choose between hiding and helping? I do not know where these fallacies come from, but I do not wonder why are you an atheist, these grace-scaring thoughts are dangerous for the soul, and not only they are not consolided on theological issues, but rather on vague individual pressupositions...

 

[cloudyday2]

Again, that is not true. Why would science have to detect that help and in what manner? You are saying things that you, in your mind think that they need to be that way but let me tell you that reality is different, and what you are saying is utterly ridiculous, God has to choose between hiding and helping? I do not know where these fallacies come from, but I do not wonder why are you an atheist, these grace-scaring thoughts are dangerous for the soul, and not only they are not consolided on theological issues, but rather on vague individual pressupositions...

That's the fundamental question of this thread. If God has motives that are comprehensible to humans, then shouldn't the results of those motives be detectable scientifically? Even if we restrict God to distorting the randomness in quantum mechanics, shouldn't the results of God's activities on behalf of humans be detectable? For example, if God increased the likelihood of me winning at the slot machines, shouldn't that be detectable? If God nurtured his followers to help them grow into more virtuous people, shouldn't that be detectable?

 

[Wryetui]

No, that's the answer, no. You are totally mixing concepts, how can you think of substituting the ecclesial experience with science will have the same results? You meet God in the Church, in the Church He created, you meet Him in the Scriptures He inspired and most importantly, if you are worthy, you can see God. What you are completely missing here is purification, ascetism. Jesus clearly said that only those that are pure in heart shall see God, and we can become pure in heart in His Church, trying to find God in the slot machines or in virtuous people is a very naive and poor attempt, why only the saints had the opportunity of experiencing God? Have you ever read something written by St. Symeon the New Theologian, or St. Gregory Palamas? Read about those who are pure in heart and saw God, read about those who experienced theoria, if you don't want to take the time to cleanse yourself from sins, to follow ascetic methods and to do the hesychast prayer while you are isolated from people you could at least listen to those who bear witness of it.

Not only that, but what if I tell you I find God's works everywhere, and it's you that you don't see it? Why everytime I see myself in the mirror I thank that who created me? Why everytime I take a walk in the park I say: "Glory to you, God, for these beautiful trees and flowers you made with such a wisdom", why everytime I tell my mom I love her I see God's will in that action, and why everytime I'm angry and mad I see satan's will there?, the problem isn't about God not wanting to show Himself, the problem is that some people's heart is so hardened that they can hardly see God, and I tell you this by experience, by my living experience. I didn't see my sins at all, I thought I was sinless and after some confessions what happened to me? God's grace softened my heart after all the harding I have put it through and I became aware of all those things. I remember that after that confession I came home and I was even afraid of pushing the button of the TV to turn it on so I wouldn't commit a sin and lose that heavenly sensation, which I lost after all because of my sins.

 

[LoAmmi]

Not only that, but what if I tell you I find God's works everywhere, and it's you that you don't see it? Why everytime I see myself in the mirror I thank that who created me? Why everytime I take a walk in the park I say: "Glory to you, God, for these beautiful trees and flowers you made with such a wisdom", why everytime I tell my mom I love her I see God's will in that action.

Reminds me of a quote I read from the sages that Jews are supposed to praise HaShem for everything, the good and the bad.

 

[Wryetui]

Reminds me of a quote I read from the sages that Jews are supposed to praise HaShem for everything, the good and the bad.

Yes. And it's not even the good and the bad, it's just that we view it as it is good or bad, there is no such thing for God because He doesn't do bad things, so I think it's a blasphemy to say that He actually did something bad to us. Our Church's view is that God, through diseases, suffering, calamities, catastrophies and other stuff teaches us, not punishes us, God doesn't need to punish us.

He is teaching us, so my Church's view is that all these things are strictly pedagogical, because through suffering we turn ourselves to God, suffering reminds us that we are mortal, it reminds us that nothing in this earth lasts forever but sin and its consequences, and that it doesn't matter how good or "bad" we are, we must keep our eyes on God, because He's the only that is eternal and never ends, not like what we have here on earth, we are just shadows. The most famous romanian poem ever made, "The evening star" have some verses that reminds us of how fragile we are, in this part, the supreme being called "Hyperion", that here simbolizes a saint that is in communion with God, asks God to make Him human again, and God responds:

Become a man – is this your goal,
Their likeness to acquire?
But were mankind to perish whole,
Others would still aspire.

They only build, yet cannot save,
Ideals all too shallow –
As waves keep marching to their grave
More waves arise and follow.

They have but lucky stars to chase
While haunted by misfortunes,
We live outside of time and space
With no death in our fortunes.

Out of eternal yesterday
Today’s living expire;
Were an old sun to fade away,
New suns would burst afire.

Seemingly parted from the void
By void they are predated,
For all are born to be destroyed
And die to be created.

 

[LoAmmi]

Yes. And it's not even the good and the bad, it's just that we view it as it is good or bad, there is no such thing for God because He doesn't do bad things, so I think it's a blasphemy to say that He actually did something bad to us. Our Church's view is that God, through diseases, suffering, calamities, catastrophies and other stuff teaches us, not punishes us, God doesn't need to punish us.

I'd say that my faith completely believes that we are punished. We committed sins in Israel and were punished with the Babylonian Exile. We were warned, though, and we didn't listen to the Prophets. That when HaShem says in Isaiah that He creates evil, He means it.

I would point out that we don't have the same concept of fallen angels, Satan, and the like, so I can see where we'd have a major disconnect there.

 

[Wryetui]

Yes, I recognize that and I never denied it, but the issue here is the purpose. God didn't punish you, neither He punishes us just so He can ditch all the rage He has, He has no rage, He doesn't punish us in that sense, just to satisfy His wrath, He punishes us in a pedagogical way, like the Father He is for us, in the exact same way a Father punishes His kids, so they can learn. You do something wrong? You will be corrected so you will learn the gravity of that thing you did, why it is so grievous and why it is so dangerous for you. This is the real punishment, not just a satisfaction for someone who has angry issues, but a caring Father.

Exactly this is the mentality of the Orthodox Church through the centuries it has been here, and that's what the saints, the fathers and the Bible teaches.

 

[LoAmmi]

Yes, I recognize that and I never denied it, but the issue here is the purpose. God didn't punish you, neither He punishes us just so He can ditch all the rage He has, He has no rage, He doesn't punish us in that sense, just to satisfy His wrath, He punishes us in a pedagogical way, like the Father He is for us, in the exact same way a Father punishes His kids, so they can learn. You do something wrong? You will be corrected so you will learn the gravity of that thing you did, why it is so grievous and why it is so dangerous for you. This is the real punishment, not just a satisfaction for someone who has angry issues, but a caring Father.

Exactly this is the mentality of the Orthodox Church through the centuries it has been here, and that's what the saints, the fathers and the Bible teaches.

Yes, that's consistent with our beliefs. The Prophets speak all the time that we need to turn back to Him and we will be forgiven and brought back. It's a pretty consistent theme. Always on a path to doing better, you know?

 

[Supreme]

I *love* science, and see no disconnect between my own faith and science. I always loved science throughout school, and was particularly into biology, but I took chemistry to the end as well.

I'm currently studying medicine at university, and I am inspired by my studies at the awe of God. For example, earlier today I was refreshing my knowledge on ear physiology. It's just astounding how the ear works. The fluid of the inner ear is more inert than the air of the middle ear, and so we have a large ear drum, and then tiny ossicle bones, that act to amplify the pressure needed to transmit soundwaves in the fluid. It's just... amazing.

 

[cloudyday2]

I *love* science, and see no disconnect between my own faith and science. I always loved science throughout school, and was particularly into biology, but I took chemistry to the end as well.

I'm currently studying medicine at university, and I am inspired by my studies at the awe of God. For example, earlier today I was refreshing my knowledge on ear physiology. It's just astounding how the ear works. The fluid of the inner ear is more inert than the air of the middle ear, and so we have a large ear drum, and then tiny ossicle bones, that act to amplify the pressure needed to transmit soundwaves in the fluid. It's just... amazing.

You're probably aware of that our ear bones evolved from jaw bones. I thought it was interesting when I learned about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_mammalian_auditory_ossicles

 

[cloudyday2]

Reminds me of a quote I read from the sages that Jews are supposed to praise HaShem for everything, the good and the bad.

The Arabs apparently feel that way too. When a child dies, the mother will shrug and say "God's will" (or whatever). A child dies a miserable death from disease... "the Lord works in mysterious ways". Sorry, I expect more from God.

 

[light upon light]

We can hardly fault skeptics for doubting the existence of God when He is so indifferent to those who seek Him. That is the fundamental conflict between God and science. If God actually helps people, then science would detect his help. So God must choose between hiding and helping.

Not sure what you mean "indifferent to those who seek Him"?

Can you elaborate?

 

[light upon light]

The Arabs apparently feel that way too. When a child dies, the mother will shrug and say "God's will" (or whatever). A child dies a miserable death from disease... "the Lord works in mysterious ways". Sorry, I expect more from God.

A world without suffering, I guess?

 

[light upon light]

This is why a precise definition of "God" is so important - otherwise discussion isn't possible.

I don't think we will be able to arrive at any precise definition of "God". I find what Abdu'l-Baha wrote here very relevant:

"All the people have formed a god in the world of thought, and that form of their own imagination they worship; when the fact is that the imagined form is finite and the human mind is infinite. Surely the infinite is greater than the finite, for imagination is accidental (or non-essential) while the mind is essential; surely the essential is greater than the accidental.
Therefore consider: All the sects and peoples worship their own thought; they create a god in their own minds and acknowledge him to be the creator of all things, when that form is superstition—thus people adore and worship imagination (or illusion).

That Essence of the Divine Entity and the Unseen of the unseen is holy above imagination and is beyond thought. Consciousness doth not reach It. Within the capacity of comprehension of a produced (or created) reality that Ancient Reality cannot be contained. It is a different world; from it there is no information; arrival thereat is impossible; attainment thereto is prohibited and inaccessible. This much is known: It exists and Its existence is certain and proven—but the condition is unknown." - Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha

 

[Supreme]

You're probably aware of that our ear bones evolved from jaw bones. I thought it was interesting when I learned about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_mammalian_auditory_ossicles

I'm also aware that the balance (vestibular) function of the ear is far older than that of hearing. A really cool fact, especially since most people aren't even aware that the ear is involved in anything other than hearing!

 

[light upon light]

If we are approaching the subject of God and science from a position of assumed theism--which seemed like the point of the thread--then there is a presumed revelation of said God. For Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Baha'is who believe in the God of Abraham the presumption is that this is a God of revelation, a God that has revealed God's Self in some capacity through the narrative of human history.

This is a really excellent answer to the question:

"Where is God? Why doesn't he speak to me?"

That is: he did, many times. And we can accept or reject His message to us.

 

[LoAmmi]

The Arabs apparently feel that way too. When a child dies, the mother will shrug and say "God's will" (or whatever). A child dies a miserable death from disease... "the Lord works in mysterious ways". Sorry, I expect more from God.

I expect bad things to happen in the world. It doesn't bother me that they do.

 

[cloudyday2]

I expect bad things to happen in the world. It doesn't bother me that they do.

If you set your expectations are low enough, then you will never be disappointed with God. (I'm not criticizing you specifically, because I know this type of thinking is widely admired among theists.)

A world without suffering, I guess?

Is a world without suffering such an unreasonable goal? Science has been gradually achieving this goal. Imagine all the people who suffered and eventually died in misery from bad teeth over these millions of years. We're making great progress. Eventually I hope society begins to work to relieve suffering in animals too. For example, we can sterilize birds and then feed them, so they aren't struggling against starvation. Of course we have barely scratched the surface.

 

[cloudyday2]

I'm also aware that the balance (vestibular) function of the ear is far older than that of hearing. A really cool fact, especially since most people aren't even aware that the ear is involved in anything other than hearing!

The vestibular function must be very old I suppose. Even worms must need some idea about up and down?