God vs. Science

[dcalling]

I was a software engineer for about 10 years, so I know that part of it.

We are almost on the same page then What did you do? What language were you using? I used pretty much all (Assembly, VB, C/C++/Java later C# and Javascript), it is my passion

So for you, consciousness is the key? We need a good definition of consciousness, before we can say much.

That is true. I can't define it, every since I was very young. No one can define it, and as we are both software engineers, we know if we can't define a problem, we can't solve it

First, write a program that takes historical data and invents objects, actors, goals, etc. to fit that data. I think that is part of what brains do. This brain will invent a "self" to fit the data associated with the body containing that brain. I think that is consciousness. The data that doesn't fit the brain's predictions will seem to be the result of "free will". (That's my first stab at the problem without having thought too much on it. )

Nothing there is beyond the reach of computers IMO. I don't see a problem.

This is the part we disagree on. We humans can do what nature can't in billions of years, and whatever we do today is actually already thought of by others thousands years ago (The Chinese has the concept of binary numbers, and actually said that everything come from the 2 states, 1 and 0, and the Taoist symbol is actually the permutation of 4 bits). Yet no one has a good model for how brain works. Look at the neuro networks, if they are indeed how our brain works, it only shows that alone is not enough, something else has to be there, something that is not physical, not bounded (and it is not just the randomness either). And that is why despict all the hypes about AI, none has done a remotely successful model of it, all that is of AI in computer world are fakes.

 

[cloudyday2]

We are almost on the same page then What did you do? What language were you using? I used pretty much all (Assembly, VB, C/C++/Java later C# and Javascript), it is my passion

I worked mostly in C and C++ in the 90s. I enjoyed programming. Looking back, I worked on a wide variety of projects. I started-out doing user interfaces, but I eventually moved into high availability, networking, storage, file system internals, etc. I haven't worked as a software engineer since 2000 though. I have good memories of that time.

That is true. I can't define it, every since I was very young. No one can define it, and as we are both software engineers, we know if we can't define a problem, we can't solve it

Another problem with consciousness is that you can't know if other people have it. Some people might be robots designed to appear conscious. If we can define the mechanisms of consciousness, then anything possessing those mechanisms could be classified as conscious. If a computer program has those mechanisms then we would know it is conscious - just like a human brain with those mechanisms.

This is the part we disagree on. We humans can do what nature can't in billions of years, and whatever we do today is actually already thought of by others thousands years ago (The Chinese has the concept of binary numbers, and actually said that everything come from the 2 states, 1 and 0, and the Taoist symbol is actually the permutation of 4 bits). Yet no one has a good model for how brain works. Look at the neuro networks, if they are indeed how our brain works, it only shows that alone is not enough, something else has to be there, something that is not physical, not bounded (and it is not just the randomness either). And that is why despict all the hypes about AI, none has done a remotely successful model of it, all that is of AI in computer world are fakes.

One interesting test of AI is the ability to fool humans into thinking the AI is human. I think we are getting pretty close to that goal. You are right that it is complicated. As an atheist, I believe I am a biological robot.

 

[dcalling]

I worked mostly in C and C++ in the 90s. I enjoyed programming. Looking back, I worked on a wide variety of projects. I started-out doing user interfaces, but I eventually moved into high availability, networking, storage, file system internals, etc. I haven't worked as a software engineer since 2000 though. I have good memories of that time.

Yep, nothing is more fun than programs (usually the ones that do cool things are cooler, that is why game programers usually got paid less because more people want to do them).

Another problem with consciousness is that you can't know if other people have it. Some people might be robots designed to appear conscious. If we can define the mechanisms of consciousness, then anything possessing those mechanisms could be classified as conscious. If a computer program has those mechanisms then we would know it is conscious - just like a human brain with those mechanisms.

I actually believe the other way around. I believe computer programs can never be conscious (as in all human history no one can define it, and you know very well we software engineers can't implement undefined models).

So basically I believe there are people walking around but are actually robots, i.e. people without a soul.

One interesting test of AI is the ability to fool humans into thinking the AI is human. I think we are getting pretty close to that goal. You are right that it is complicated.

I am still a bit surprised that as a software engineer you can think of it, as no one can implement undefined stuff. And all we could do is make better fakes.

As an atheist, I believe I am a biological robot.

Trust me you are more than a robot