God the middleman

[Ed1wolf]

Physicists have long struggled with reconciling quantum mechanics and relativity at the Big Bang. The two are not compatible at that scale. Your solution? Don't worry about it because quantum mechanics wasn't even a thing before humans started observing? Do you really think physicists will slap their forehead at the simplicity of the solution that they have missed all this time? Oh, please do write a paper proving you are right.

That is not what I said. God may have been the observer and initiated QM to create the universe. That was long before humans including erectus.

dm: So not only did a Homo Erectus build an ocean liner, according to you, but they also initiated quantum mechanics? Quite impressive.

See above.

 

[Bradskii]

So you deny that your mind exists?

If mind is something other than the physical, electrical and chemical processes occuring in that wet meat between our ears then I vote yes.

 

[doubtingmerle]

That is not what I said. God may have been the observer and initiated QM to create the universe.

Uh, if there is no such thing as a point in spacetime without an intelligent observer, what experiment would show that QM does not work where there is no intelligent observer?

For the record, QM theory does not say that every QM action requires an intelligent observer.

 

[Tinker Grey]

So you deny that your mind exists?

I agree with @Bradskii

 

[Ed1wolf]

If mind is something other than the physical, electrical and chemical processes occuring in that wet meat between our ears then I vote yes.

Then how can you reason and think without a mind? Chemical and electrical processes just react with each other, they cannot reason and think.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Chemical and electrical processes just react with each other, they cannot reason and think.

Wrong.

Brains can think.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Then how can you reason and think without a mind? Chemical and electrical processes just react with each other, they cannot reason and think.

Lol, very complicated computer programming. No wonder some people go mad!

 

[Bradskii]

Then how can you reason and think without a mind? Chemical and electrical processes just react with each other, they cannot reason and think.

So if it exists apart from the electrical, chemical and physical processes then I'm keen to find out where it is. Do you have any information?

 

[Mark Quayle]

So if it exists apart from the electrical, chemical and physical processes then I'm keen to find out where it is. Do you have any information?

My bro-in-law said he was one time on some drug, I don't remember what, and "found himself sitting" in the little ledge under the back window of a Volkswagen Beetle, and watched himself talking with the girl sitting next to him on the back seat. It scared him so bad he quit drugs and he hasn't done any since. He, at least, is convinced that the mind, and even awareness of locality, is not permanently affixed to the brain and the body's senses.

Yeah, I know, just a story. Not evidence. Still, rather amazing.

 

[Bradskii]

My bro-in-law said he was one time on some drug, I don't remember what, and "found himself sitting" in the little ledge under the back window of a Volkswagen Beetle, and watched himself talking with the girl sitting next to him on the back seat. It scared him so bad he quit drugs and he hasn't done any since. He, at least, is convinced that the mind, and even awareness of locality, is not permanently affixed to the brain and the body's senses.

Yeah, I know, just a story. Not evidence. Still, rather amazing.

Half way through a sci fi book valled Recursion which deals with this sense of displacement. Someone invents a means of replaying certain memories so vividly that you feel yourself actually back at that time. It's a dangerous process and they discover that if you die during the process in the present whilst 'reliving' the past, you end up stuck in the past. Which you can then change because you know what the result of certain decisions will be in the future.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Half way through a sci fi book valled Recursion which deals with this sense of displacement. Someone invents a means of replaying certain memories so vividly that you feel yourself actually back at that time. It's a dangerous process and they discover that if you die during the process in the present whilst 'reliving' the past, you end up stuck in the past. Which you can then change because you know what the result of certain decisions will be in the future.

I'll have to chase it up. I love sci-fi.

If you are into sci-fi, you might be able to tell me what book it was that I once read long ago, and don't remember the name; the basic premise, or narrative of the book has three beings watching 'from above' so to speak, discussing the behavior, etc of one of the three as she was also in immature form growing up in her world, unaware that she was not as she would become or that she was being watched by the three. (They were not human, nor was she.) Compelling reading.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Half way through a sci fi book valled Recursion which deals with this sense of displacement. Someone invents a means of replaying certain memories so vividly that you feel yourself actually back at that time. It's a dangerous process and they discover that if you die during the process in the present whilst 'reliving' the past, you end up stuck in the past. Which you can then change because you know what the result of certain decisions will be in the future.

This also makes me think of a certain old philosophy/theology I have heard of, where cause-and-effect is only an illusion, made by the gods who constantly monitor our thoughts and produce the effects we think are caused by whatever came before those effects. Can't help but chuckle, but it is interesting.

Edit: maybe an old form of the simulation theory.

 

[Bradskii]

I'll have to chase it up. I love sci-fi.

If you are into sci-fi, you might be able to tell me what book it was that I once read long ago, and don't remember the name; the basic premise, or narrative of the book has three beings watching 'from above' so to speak, discussing the behavior, etc of one of the three as she was also in immature form growing up in her world, unaware that she was not as she would become or that she was being watched by the three. (They were not human, nor was she.) Compelling reading.

https://www.amazon.com.au/Recursion...ocphy=9071837&hvtargid=pla-857840059656&psc=1

In that story, did they reproduce sexually, the three being involved but one acting as a 'catalyst'? Not sure why I asked because I can't remember the name of the book I read that in either.

 

[Mark Quayle]

https://www.amazon.com.au/Recursion...ocphy=9071837&hvtargid=pla-857840059656&psc=1

In that story, did they reproduce sexually, the three being involved but one acting as a 'catalyst'? Not sure why I asked because I can't remember the name of the book I read that in either.

That sounds familiar. I'd have to say probably.

 

[Bradskii]

That sounds familiar. I'd have to say probably.

Asimov's The Gods Themselves?

The Gods Themselves - Wikipedia

 

[Mark Quayle]

Asimov's The Gods Themselves?

The Gods Themselves - Wikipedia

Wow! Yes, that's the one (or the three, lol). I had forgotten all about the other business, the energy sapping and so on. And I don't remember the three not even themselves being quite mature. Maybe I never got the chance to finish it (them).

Thank you!

Asimov had an incredible mind! (no pun intended)

 

[Ed1wolf]

Uh, if there is no such thing as a point in spacetime without an intelligent observer, what experiment would show that QM does not work where there is no intelligent observer?

For the record, QM theory does not say that every QM action requires an intelligent observer.

According to the article I posted, the Copenhagen interpretation plainly implies that it does not occur without either an observer or the taking of a measurement. See below. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

"During an observation, the system must interact with a laboratory device. When that device makes a measurement, the wave function of the systems collapses, irreversibly reducing to an eigenstate of the observable that is registered. The result of this process is a tangible record of the event, made by a potentiality becoming an actuality."

 

[Ed1wolf]

I agree with @Bradskii

See my response to Bradskii above.

 

[Bradskii]

See my response to Bradskii above.

Which was:

Chemical and electrical processes just react with each other, they cannot reason and think.

And my response to your response, which was:

'So if it exists apart from the electrical, chemical and physical processes then I'm keen to find out where it is. Do you have any information?'

So do you have any information?

 

[doubtingmerle]

"During an observation, the system must interact with a laboratory device. When that device makes a measurement, the wave function of the systems collapses, irreversibly reducing to an eigenstate of the observable that is registered. The result of this process is a tangible record of the event, made by a potentiality becoming an actuality."

Again, if God counts as an observer, and God is everywhere, what experiment could possibly prove that quantum mechanics do not occur in the absence of God? You simply ignore that question.

Whistling into the wind does not count as science.

Your paragraph is about what happens when a quantum effect is detected by the detecting equipment. It is not about the need for an intelligent observer.

The effects are mysterious. One way of looking at it is to say it acts as though, at the moment the effect interacts with the rest of the world, the system wave function collapses into a particular state.