God ordained the Fall

[Daaa]

God is sovereign over all things.

Something as important as the fall of all humanity did not catch God by surprise nor did Satan deceive God or Adam did not sin of his own free will.

It was God’s plan before the earth was created that all will die in Adam and will be made alive in Christ .

Without a sinner who needs Jesus.

 

[Daaa]

Notice it was God not little Adam who turned man to destruction

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, you have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

Adam had no choice.

NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I don't know if ordained is the best word but I would say it was in God's plan.

The fall revolves around the tree of knowledge.
Man had to eat of it to learn of good and evil.
God does not tempt so Satan was needed to tempt man into eating.
Man ate of the tree.
Man became like God, knowing good and evil.
Jesus came to redeem God's people.
At the next age, Satan will be locked up and there will be no more evil, temptation, sinning.
This will be our eternal perfection dwelling with God. This is what we were made to become eventually.
This is God's plan. God's plan did not change from Satan or the fall.

Remember Romans 9. God can make some things for glory and some for destruction.

 

[OzSpen]

I don't know if ordained is the best word but I would say it was in God's plan.

The fall revolves around the tree of knowledge.
Man had to eat of it to learn of good and evil.
God does not tempt so Satan was needed to tempt man into eating.
Man ate of the tree.
Man became like God, knowing good and evil.
Jesus came to redeem God's people.
At the next age, Satan will be locked up and there will be no more evil, temptation, sinning.
This will be our eternal perfection dwelling with God. This is what we were made to become eventually.
This is God's plan. God's plan did not change from Satan or the fall.

Remember Romans 9. God can make some things for glory and some for destruction.

Anticipate,

I prefer the attribute of God's omniscience.

What is the meaning of God’s knowing everything? This is called God’s omniscience. I found Henry Thiessen's definition helpful:

‘By the omniscience of God we mean that He knows Himself and all other things, whether they be actual or merely possible, whether they be past, present, or future, and that He knows them perfectly and from all eternity. He knows things immediately, simultaneously, exhaustively and truly. He also knows the best ways to attain His desired ends’ (Thiessen 1949:124)

How does this apply to God’s knowing the future and His foreknowledge?


Henry Thiessen again:

‘From man’s standpoint God’s knowledge of the future is foreknowledge, but not from God’s since He knows all things by one simultaneous intuition’ (Thiessen 1949:125).

This means that God’s omniscience includes:

• Knowledge of the past, present and future (Isa 46:9; Daniel 2 and 7; Matthew 24 and 25; Acts 15:18);

• Knowing that Israel would become prosperous and then practice idolatry, despise God and the intentions of these people – their wickedness (Deut 31:20-21);

• The future work of Cyrus (Isa 44:26-45:7);

• The Messiah would come (Micah 5:2);

• What would happen to Jesus at his crucifixion and what wicked people would do to him in fulfillment of Scripture (Acts 2:23; 3:18);

In Christ,
Oz


Works consulted
Thiessen, H C 1949. Introductory lectures in systematic theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

This is God's plan. God's plan did not change from Satan or the fall.

Remember Romans 9. God can make some things for glory and some for destruction.

Anticipate,
I prefer the attribute of God's omniscience.

What is the meaning of God’s knowing everything? This is called God’s omniscience.

Sorry Oz, you ignore the more difficult thought of God's plan since creation for this world.

Your many quotes only state what everyone on this forum should already confess. The purpose of the OP was to consider an aspect that is not so well comprehended. That being; God's plan with creation and the fall.

Can you quote some scripture and "expert" on how God's plan involves bad things happening to further his goal, which is us with him in heaven? Since you quoted my post but seem to not agree with it, can you refute a single point I made in it?

 

[OzSpen]

This is God's plan. God's plan did not change from Satan or the fall.

Remember Romans 9. God can make some things for glory and some for destruction.

Sorry Oz, you ignore the more difficult thought of God's plan since creation for this world.

Your many quotes only state what everyone on this forum should already confess. The purpose of the OP was to consider an aspect that is not so well comprehended. That being; God's plan with creation and the fall.

Can you quote some scripture and "expert" on how God's plan involves bad things happening to further his goal, which is us with him in heaven? Since you quoted my post but seem to not agree with it, can you refute a single point I made in it?

Anticipate,

You seemed to have missed the point that my entire post was designed to address your first point:

I don't know if ordained is the best word but I would say it was in God's plan.

I tried to demonstrate that instead of 'ordained', I would choose the attribute of God of His omniscience.

I agreed with your first point that 'ordained' was not the best word.

I provided scriptural examples to demonstrate God's omniscience/foreknowledge. I don't understand your complaint.

Oz

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Anticipate,

You seemed to have missed the point that my entire post was designed to address your first point:
I tried to demonstrate that instead of 'ordained', I would choose the attribute of God of His omniscience.

I agreed with your first point that 'ordained' was not the best word.

I provided scriptural examples to demonstrate God's omniscience/foreknowledge. I don't understand your complaint.

Oz

I figured that since you quoted my whole post you would have something to say about my thoughts on God's plan.

If all you were going to argue was the word ordained, than that was the thread topic that you should be arguing with and quoting. I didn't pick that word.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

There is definitely scripture that speaks to God's plan.
To say that there is scripture that speaks to God's foreknowledge is not a valid argument against it also being God's plan.

We know that Jesus was chosen to be our savior before creation
1 Pet 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Scripture also says it was according to God's plan that Jesus would die.
Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

So if God's plan since before creation was for Jesus to die for our sins, it can be inferred that sinners were needed as part of God's plan since creation. A further inference, it was God's plan that we sinned. The next age will be the sinless paradise where we will live in the presence of God for eternity. The first created world was never meant to be eternal.

God's plan before creation also includes the saints.
Eph 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

 

[holyrokker]

God is sovereign over all things.

God's sovereignty does not mean that He controls all things or that He dictates how all things will be. To say that God is sovereign means that He holds the final judgment.

There will come a day when all flesh will answer to Him. He will judge each person according to what is right, and there will be no option for an appeal, because God is sovereign.

Sovereignty refers to governance, not control.

 

[holyrokker]

Without a sinner who needs Jesus.

All of creation needs Jesus: sinner or not. He is the creator and sustainer of all that exists. Without Him, there is nothing.

It is not sin that renders Jesus as King of Kings. He is.

Sin can never bring any glory to Jesus. Only righteousness can.

 

[iluvtheSims]

That would be saying God is evil... It was not Gods plan that Adam and Eve were to Sin, He didn't make them do it . Why would God create them to fail? He didn't, they just had free will and sadly they chose to listen to the trickster devil .

 

[OzSpen]

God's sovereignty does not mean that He controls all things or that He dictates how all things will be. To say that God is sovereign means that He holds the final judgment.

There will come a day when all flesh will answer to Him. He will judge each person according to what is right, and there will be no option for an appeal, because God is sovereign.

Sovereignty refers to governance, not control.

To the contrary, God's sovereignty does mean that He has sovereign dominion over everything. Sovereignty at its basic level of meaning is to be in control of something. So biblically God's sovereignty refers to his complete control of the universe.

The Westminster Confession of Faith gives an excellent summary of this understanding of God's sovereignty: 'God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass' (Ch 3). To support this position, the WCF provides this Scripture:

EPH 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. ROM 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! HEB 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath. ROM 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.​

So God's sovereignty means much more than he holds the final judgment, as you say. Yes, sovereignty refers to governance but governance means 'to be in control of', 'to be in charge of'.

So God is in charge of, controls, what happens in our world.

Oz

 

[holyrokker]

To the contrary, God's sovereignty does mean that He has sovereign dominion over everything. Sovereignty at its basic level of meaning is to be in control of something. So biblically God's sovereignty refers to his complete control of the universe.

The Westminster Confession of Faith gives an excellent summary of this understanding of God's sovereignty: 'God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass' (Ch 3). To support this position, the WCF provides this Scripture:

EPH 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. ROM 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! HEB 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath. ROM 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.​

So God's sovereignty means much more than he holds the final judgment, as you say. Yes, sovereignty refers to governance but governance means 'to be in control of', 'to be in charge of'.

So God is in charge of, controls, what happens in our world.

Oz

No where else in all of the English language does sovereignty mean "control" in that sense. It is a distortion of the word and a poor representation of God's character to state that God is in control of everything.

As for the WCF "supporting" its stance with Bible verses, the passages that are cited do not "support" such a doctrine contextually. Only by removing each verse from its context, and misapplying their relationships to each other can the doctrine look valid.

That is not "support". It's more distortion.

 

[OzSpen]

No where else in all of the English language does sovereignty mean "control" in that sense. It is a distortion of the word and a poor representation of God's character to state that God is in control of everything.

As for the WCF "supporting" its stance with Bible verses, the passages that are cited do not "support" such a doctrine contextually. Only by removing each verse from its context, and misapplying their relationships to each other can the doctrine look valid.

That is not "support". It's more distortion.

My Australian Macquarie Dictionary gives this definition of 'sovereignty':

1. The quality or state of being sovereign. 2. the status, dominion, power, or authority of a sovereign. 3. supreme and independent power or authority in government as possessed or claimed by a state or community. 4. a sovereign state, community or political unit (The Macquarie dictionary. S v sovereignty).
​

If dominion, power, authority, supreme and independent power or authority do not mean 'control', then the English language has lost its meaning.

You may not like the definition I provided, but it is consistent with the dictionary definition and the following exposition by J I Packer.

J I Packer's Concise Theology on God's sovereignty is:

SOVEREIGNTY

GOD REIGNS

At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever. His dominion is an eternal dominion; his kingdom endures from generation to generation. DANIEL 4:34 ​

The assertion of God’s absolute sovereignty in creation, providence, and grace is basic to biblical belief and biblical praise. The vision of God on the throne—that is, ruling—recurs (1 Kings 22:19; Isa. 6:1; Ezek. 1:26; Dan. 7:9; Rev. 4:2; cf. Pss. 11:4; 45:6; 47:8-9; Heb. 12:2; Rev. 3:21); and we are constantly told in explicit terms that the LORD (Yahweh) reigns as king, exercising dominion over great and tiny things alike (Exod. 15:18; Pss. 47; 93; 96:10; 97; 99:1-5; 146:10; Prov. 16:33; 21:1; Isa. 24:23; 52:7; Dan. 4:34-35; 5:21-28; 6:26; Matt. 10:29-31). God’s dominion is total: he wills as he chooses and carries out all that he wills, and none can stay his hand or thwart his plans.

That God’s rational creatures, angelic and human, have free agency (power of personal decision as to what they shall do) is clear in Scripture throughout; we would not be moral beings, answerable to God the judge, were it not so, nor would it then be possible to distinguish, as Scripture does, between the bad purposes of human agents and the good purposes of God, who sovereignly overrules human action as a planned means to his own goals (Gen. 50:20; Acts 2:23; 13:26-39). Yet the fact of free agency confronts us with mystery, inasmuch as God’s control over our free, self-determined activities is as complete as it is over anything else, and how this can be we do not know. Regularly, however, God exercises his sovereignty by letting things take their course, rather than by miraculous intrusions of a disruptive sort.

In Psalm 93 the fact of God’s sovereign rule is said to

1. guarantee the stability of the world against all the forces of chaos (v. 1b-4),
2. confirm the trustworthiness of all God’s utterances and directives (v. 5a), and
3. call for the homage of holiness on the part of his people (v. 5b). The whole psalm expresses joy, hope, and confidence in God, and no wonder. We shall do well to take its teaching to heart (Packer 1993:33-34).

Works consulted

The Macquarie dictionary: Australia's national dictionary, 3rd ed 1997.

Packer, J I 1993. Concise theology. Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.

 

[holyrokker]

control: to direct the behavior of another; to cause another to act

These ideas are not included in your definition of sovereign

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

These threads always turn into a war of semantics and concepts rather than exegetical truth of scripture.

Opinions and speculations based on inserted and preferred meanings to justify pre-conceived beliefs that are merely conceptual rather than actual.

Unless and until someone can define tov (translated "good") and ra'a (translated "evil") along with da'ath (translated "knowledge) and sakhal (translated "make*one*wise"), nobody has a clue.

This thread is an example of all the meanderings of man's faulty logic (logos) attempting to produce a substance (hypostasis) of rhema (content) rather than hearing and knowing God's.

And most won't understand what I've said because virtually everyone is putting new wine in old wineskins.

 

[justinangel]

God is sovereign over all things.
Something as important as the fall of all humanity did not catch God by surprise nor did Satan deceive God or Adam did not sin of his own free will.
It was God's plan before the earth was created that all will die in Adam and will be made alive in Christ .
Without a sinner who needs Jesus.

True, the fall of humanity did not catch God by surprise. However, God did not ordain the fall or decree that it should happen, if by that one means that God intentionally established and ordered it. Rather God permitted it to happen for the sake of a greater good. He intended nothing more than that creation and humanity should exist freely within His providence. In His sovereignty, God is physically responsible for the fall - but not morally responsible. Human beings are indeed culpable for their own sins, or else they could not be justly rewarded or punished by the Lord. God has given them the freedom to choose between right and wrong.

No one, when tempted, should say, ‘I am being tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one.
James 1, 13

“The wicked man is justly punished, having become depraved of himself; and the just man is worthy of praise for his honest deeds, since it was in his free choice that he did not transgress the will of God.”
Tatian the Syrian, Address to the Greeks 7 [A.D. 170]

Jesus came into the world because of sin; God did not create the world so that we should sin to allow Him to flaunt His divine mercy. If God permitted the fall of humanity, it was because Jesus would come into the world. God does not let anything happen on a whim, but for a good purpose.

He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
Deuteronomy 32, 4

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace,
1 Corinthians 14, 33

“The root of every good work is the hope of the resurrection, for the expectation of a reward nerves the soul to good work. Every labourer is prepared to endure the toils if he looks forward to the reward of these toils”
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 18:1 [A.D. 350]

If God has intentionally created evil, then God could not be good. And if God were not good, then there could be nothing good in His creation (cf. Gen 1:31). Obviously if we know the difference between right and wrong, we are in a position to choose either of them in our actions. Perhaps God had permitted the fall to happen in order for us to demonstrate our genuine love for Him above all created things. But He made sure that it would not be impossible for us to resist evil - that which isn't good - by giving us sufficient grace to be able to direct our wills to what is good and pleasing to Him. If we notice a difference between what is good and evil, it is not so much that God has created a duality of positive forces in order to test us, but rather we simply acknowledge that which isn't good but might be more appealing to us. We couldn't perceive anything as evil unless we first knew what is good in its proper measure according to our conscience. Love is good and originates from God who is love, but an inordinate self-love isn't. Selfishness is an evil that freely arises from within our natural selves. God expects us to love ourselves, but in proper measure. Certainly we cannot hold God morally culpable for our own innate selfishness, which original sin basically is. Human beings are the moral cause of entertaining dark thoughts and committing wicked deeds regardless of who created them physically.

And he called the people to him again, and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him.”
Mark 7, 14-15

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
Colossians 3, 1-6

Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin....And if it should seem necessary to do so, there may be added to the aforementioned considerations [referring to previous Scriptures cited that we all sin] the fact that in the Church, Baptism is given for the remission of sin; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given even to infants. And indeed if there were nothing in infants which required a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of Baptism would seem superfluous.
Origin, Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [AD. 244]

Temptations arise within the order of creation, which Satan has been granted to a certain limit to exploit. It is because of the devil's involvement that human temptations are more challenging to overcome. Thus God blamed the serpent for having instigated what had happened. (Gen. 3:14). Nevertheless, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin by choosing to act on the serpent's words which appealed to them in their inordinate self-love. Still everything God has created is good; nor are human beings totally corrupt despite their inclination towards evil and their imperfections. This is because evil is not a positive force that exists in its own right, but rather a privation of goodness. Evil is not something that was created by God or Satan in accordance with God's design. It is something that transpires by the negation of goodness. God may have allowed the fall of man to happen to measure our love for Him and to let us see for ourselves whether we love Him more than any created thing, including us. Human beings have been created to be tested. What God has originally planned is for them to see if they want to live together with Him in a state of existence which immeasurably surpasses the bliss of a terrestrial paradise. Nothing in creation, even before the fall, can compare with the Beatific Vision. If Adam and Eve had possessed the Beatific Vision, they would have understood what it truly meant to be God or God-like. They would have known for sure whether they could love anything or anyone more than God without having to judge for themselves because of the intuitive knowledge in their possession. Adam and Eve would have been in no position to choose God before they could live with Him or fall from His grace. What God has ordered is not that we should fall, but that we might live.

See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Deuteronomy 30, 15-20

For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we wake or sleep we might live with him.
1 Thessalonians 5, 9-10

Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith.
1 Peter 5, 8-9

"God became man so that man might become God."
Athanasius, On the Incarnation 54:3 [A.D. 318]
(cf. 2 Pet. 1:4; 1 Jn. 3:1-3)

I'm reminded of the traditional Japanese tea bowls, the wabi sabi, which are deliberately made to be imperfect (a small chip on the rim, or a fine crack even) so that people can learn moral lessons concerning their natural selves by looking at these tea bowls which are supposed to remind them of their own imperfections. In a similar way, God did not overlook anything when He allowed the fall to happen. He did not originally create Adam and Eve with chips and cracks, but made them so that they had the ability to chip and crack themselves by their own volition in disobedience to God. The reason must have been that by falling they would humbly learn how vulnerable and base they were apart from God, just as the tea bowl holders can learn something about themselves in their relationship with other human beings by contemplating on their own moral imperfections. Meanwhile, the tea bowls are still good despite the chips and the cracks in them. And it is through the cracks that the light gets in. In truth this is the light of Christ which can penetrate the souls of all human beings of all faiths and serves to bring people to God by loving and appreciating Him as they should if they do in fact want to be with Him. What is darkness if not the absence of light which God decreed (cf. Gen 3:1).

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5, 48

This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no dark. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1 John 1, 5-7

"You are mistaken, and are deceived, whosoever you are, that think yourself rich in this world. Listen to the voice of your Lord in the Apocalypse, rebuking men of your stamp with righteous reproaches: 'Thou sayest,' says He, 'I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not appear in thee; and anoint thine eyes with eye-salve, that thou mayest see.' You therefore, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself of Christ gold tried by fire; that you may be pure gold, with your filth burnt out as if by fire, if you are purged by almsgiving and righteous works. Buy for yourself white raiment, that you who had been naked according to Adam, and were before frightful and unseemly, may be clothed with the white garment of Christ. And you who are a wealthy and rich matron in Christ's Church, anoint your eyes, not with the collyrium of the devil, but with Christ's eye-salve, that you may be able to attain to see God, by deserving well of God, both by good works and character."
Cyprian, On Works and Alms, 14 [A.D.254]

Hence, evil and sin are not things in and of themselves which exist in their own right. They are the absence of divine goodness and perfection. God is directly responsible for the goodness and spiritual perfection we can attain in this life, but not for their privation. Take the natural world for example. Degrees of cold temperature are the privation of amounts of energy which produce heat. To make a room less warm and uncomfortable in the winter, we have to turn down the heat to perfect the room temperature. By doing so, we don't put cold in but rather take heat out. The less heat, the more perfect the room temperature is. It is because of natural conditions that a room might become uncomfortably warmer for us. Perhaps by chance (God has provided room for chance in His universe.) the temperature outside rose considerably. Are we to say that God determined to make the room uncomfortable for us? Of course not! But what God did determine was that the room temperature could be perfected to our satisfaction; since He is a perfect God who desires what is good for us.

Since we are imperfect and naturally inclined to sin, we must strive for perfection by trying to remove whatever darkness is inside of us. If we lack generosity, we must strive for being generous and thus perfect ourselves in this quality of being human. Because of certain conditions or circumstances in this life, we have to make adjustments to ourselves no less than with our living room. To become generous, we must remove all those internal causes that make us ungenerous. We don't put generosity in, but we allow it to assert itself as God had originally ordered. Somewhere along the road we lose our original state of generosity. Since a perfect and good God does exist, according to our belief, we can make our lives wholesome again internally by trying to be more generous with the help of divine grace and reverse our personal fall.

Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.
2 Corinthians 7, 1

"... so likewise men, if they do truly progress by faith towards better things, and receive the Spirit of God, and bring forth the fruit thereof, shall be spiritual, as being planted in the paradise of God. But if they cast out the Spirit, and remain in their former condition, desirous of being of the flesh rather than of the Spirit, then it is very justly said with regard to men of this stamp, 'That flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God;' just as if any one were to say that the wild olive is not received into the paradise of God."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5:10,1 [A.D. 180]

Human beings possess a sinful nature and are imperfect; yet they are still essentially good having been created in God's image. It is because of their wounded sinful nature that they tend to sin. Further, this evil, as I have pointed out, arises within a vacuum on account of a combination of conditions and circumstances. Evil is the privation of the good which comes from God. Our inclination towards the good does not emerge from a vacuum, but by God's sufficient grace which is good in and of itself. We have all received this grace so that we may begin our journey back towards the original state of human perfection - that is the original state of sanctity and justice. Finally, if God were the author of evil, then He wouldn't grant us this grace so that we may be reconciled with Him by emulating Christ's righteousness.

See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
1 John 3, 1-3

Perfection is more or less absent because the universe itself is imperfect in its natural freedom. Imperfection isn't an absolute positive trait or condition unlike perfection, but rather a relative negative one measured by degrees. It isn't synonymous with immutability or something we should strive for as a standard to go by as perfection is, for we would then be heading in a negative direction or downward movement. If the universe hadn't been perfect before the fall - that first instant when creation was set in motion along with chance and when what was simple began to become ever more complex - there could be no positive upward movement back in the natural world towards retrieving what had been lost. In order for perfection to be absent in some measure - it is not entirely absent - it would first have to be or else it couldn't exist as a standard to pursue. Imperfection is mutable and relative, for it can be measured as more or less meeting the objective standard of perfection.

The same principle applies to goodness in its relation to evil. A perfect world is an immutable absolutely good world with no potential to incline towards evil. An imperfect world is a relatively more or less good world whose objective standard is more or less attained according to the measure of good. Evil is not our standard of pursuit and attainment - but being good or what is good for us is. A man who commits murder so that he can marry his neighbor's wife is acting wickedly and selfishly in pursuit of what he feels is good for himself. But what we think might be good for us isn't necessarily good and could even be evil. Adam and Eve fell into that quagmire with the help of the serpent. Such goodness or being good cannot rightly be called that, and in this context has no relation to God who is absolutely and immutably perfect and good.

PAX

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

If God has intentionally created evil, then God could not be good. And if God were not good, then there could be nothing good in His creation (cf. Gen 1:31).

After the quotation of much scripture, you think to add to truth with something you made up. Read Romans 9. Scripture is clear. God makes some for destruction, some for his mercy. None are good or deserving of God's grace. This is according to God's good pleasure and who are we to argue with the potter?

You qualify God's creation with "intentionally created evil". What purpose do you inject the word "intentionally"? I feel you still wrestle with explaining how evil is in the world. How can God do anything not intentionally? How can there be unintended consequences of what God does? How can God not know what will result from his actions? You seem to still wrestle with the basic humanistic argument against an all powerful God that is all loving and good.

God's plan since creation involves bad things, even his Son suffering.

1 Pet 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

Hence, evil and sin are not things in and of themselves which exist in their own right. They are the absence of divine goodness perfection. God is directly responsible for the goodness and spiritual perfection we can attain in this life, but not for their privation.

All your much discussion on evil does not agree with scripture's account of creation. The tree of knowledge of good and evil existed before the fall. Therefore evil is a concept that existed before the fall.

Since we are imperfect and naturally inclined to sin, we must strive for perfection by trying to remove whatever darkness is inside of us.

Please explain how Adam's nature changed when he first sinned. You seem to acknowledge that we now have a sinful nature. I agree with this as the apostle Paul spoke of this. Sinful nature means that man sins when tempted. Not always, but sometimes. More or less depending on how strongly we follow God's spirit in us.

Now if Adam sinned when tempted the first time, how is that any different than him sinning a second time when tempted again? I laugh when my wife says she blames Eve for the woman's curse; as if she would have acted any differently when tempted. Nature means how we are made. It does not mean that an action by one is genetically transferred to descendants. The fall did not change our nature. Adam and Eve were created with the same nature we now have. There were consequences of the the first fall though, being punished by God.

 

[justinangel]

Read Romans 9. Scripture is clear.

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2 Peter 3, 16

God makes some for destruction, some for his mercy. None are good or deserving of God's grace. This is according to God's good pleasure and who are we to argue with the potter?

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

You fail to see what is actually meant by the idea of God hardening one's heart. It doesn't mean that God somehow predetermined or moulded Pharaoh from wanting to release the Israelites from slavery as he may have contemplated after having already suffered from a few plagues. Rather it means in the negative sense that God permitted Pharaoh to remain unyielding to His command. Pharaoh, unfortunately, was obstinate in heart. He refused to be persuaded even after Egypt had been hit by several preceding plagues. In fact, because of his pride, he grew even more obstinate after each plague was sent by God. In this way, too, God had hardened his heart, only because of the plagues. Pharaoh grew more defiant and unheeding with each plague. They served to boost his ego on account of his own selfishness. We read in Scripture:


But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said.
Exodus 8, 15


But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.
Exodus 8, 32


And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.
Exodus 9,34


I'm afraid that Pharaoh hardened his own heart by obstinately refusing to obey the Divine command. By saying that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, we mean that His command to let the Israelite's go did it by challenging his pride and ego. It was his pride and ego that kept him from heeding the divine command.. God was physically responsible for Pharaoh’s obstinacy by having sent the plagues. But Pharaoh was morally responsible for his own decisions and acts. If God hadn’t sent the plagues, Pharaoh’s heart wouldn’t have hardened more or less at all, but would have been still as hard as stone. Hence, when Scripture says that God did this, it means that God permitted Pharaoh to become more obstinate of his own accord, and then purposefully used his pride and ego to free the Israelite’s from slavery in such an awesome way, so as to display His glory and might to the Egyptians.

“And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.”
Exodus 14, 4

"And this is your condition, because of the blindness of your soul, and the hardness of your heart. But, if you will, you may be healed. Entrust yourself to the Physician [God], and He will couch the eyes of your soul and of your heart."
Theophilus, Bishop of Antioch, To Autolycus 7. [A.D. 168-181]

The basic principle embedded in Romans 9 is this: Those who will not see and hear, shall not see and hear. ‘Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills’ (cf. Jn. 9:41). In v. 14: What then are we to say? Is there injustice on the part of God? Of course not!’ Paul is affirming that there is no injustice on God’s part in not granting what another has no right to, since all men having sinned deserve punishment. If, on the other hand, God shows His mercy on some people, it is because of His goodness and liberality despite their sins. If he leaves others in their sins (Pharaoh or the Pharisees) by withholding his grace because of their stubbornness of heart, they are punished for their just deserts. God’s mercy shines upon His elect, but the divine justice is handed out to the wicked and the reprobate according to what they deserve through their moral liberty.

In v. 19, Paul responds to the objection that if God rules over faith through the principle of divine election, God cannot then accuse unbelievers of sin: ‘You will say to me then, “Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?”’. The apostle shows that God is far less arbitrary than what might appear at first glance. He suggests in v. 22 that God does endure with much patience people like Pharaoh who obstinately resist His will: ‘What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?’. Here again he reiterates why God might, without any injustice, have mercy on some and not on others; grant particular graces and favours on His elect and not equally to everyone. All humankind is liable to damnation, composed of sinful clay which is the state of original sin. Whom God chooses to remove from this sinful lump to bestow His graces and favour upon are for the purpose of displaying His justice and hatred for sin: v. 23: ‘This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory.’ By leaving others as “vessels of wrath” which are lost in their sins, Paul means that God has endured patiently as much as He could, thereby abandoning them in their obstinate sinfulness and withholding His graces and favour from them through their own faults.

Hence, the allegory of the Potter and the clay is by no means intended to show that human beings are destitute of free will and liberty, and so are completely passive in God’s plan of redemption, unable to decide for themselves whether they want to be saved. It is used only to stress that we are not to question God why He confers his graces and favours on some and not on others; since we are no better than each other in our sinfulness. It is owing to the divine goodness and mercy that God wills to create vessels of honour by His grace and gifts of the Holy Spirit. And it is no more than just that others, because of their refusal to repent and convert, should be given up as vessels of wrath. Meanwhile the point is that God sovereignly chooses how He wants us to be used by giving us gifts for his good purpose. He has a plan for those who choose to love Him and follow Him, just as He has a plan for those who choose to reject Him.

The true sons of promise and descendants of Abraham are those who live in the spirit as opposed to in the flesh. The Jews might be of Abraham’s race, but they are made of the same clay that the Gentiles are made of, and so they could partake of the promise and be made vessels of election out of that clay by the grace of God provided they draw near to Him when He calls: Vv. 6-8: ‘But it is not that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel are Israel, nor are they all children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “It is through Isaac that descendants shall bear your name.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.’ Esau was rejected as God’s choice because he rejected his own birth right for a morsel of food. He did not act as true servant of Israel in the spirit, but as carnal Israel. Thus Esau brought God’s wrath down upon himself through his own volition. He practically begged to be put in second place by his own action. God did not predetermine that Jacob should be elected instead. It was Esau himself who tarnished his relationship with God. The word ‘hate’ signifies that there was a broken relationship between God and Esau for what the latter chose to do so dishonourably. His appetite was more important to him than God. As an object of wrath Esau became pottery for common use rather than a noble purpose.

PAX

 

[justinangel]

You qualify God's creation with "intentionally created evil". What purpose do you inject the word "intentionally"? … How can God do anything not intentionally? How can there be unintended consequences of what God does? How can God not know what will result from his actions?

If God is “all loving and good”, how could he intend to create anything evil? Obviously we have a blatant contradiction. I prefer just to keep the paradox. God does know what will result in the course of real time, but the sequence of events in time occur in the immediate present with God. Just because God knows what shall happen, it doesn’t mean that He has determined these events. What happens in the past, present, and future on earth immediately occurs in the eternal present. God consequently wills and decrees simply by knowing what is that He has created in spite of what He personally desires. God did not plan and determine the fall, but saw it happening when He created the world. Again, God is only its physical cause, not its moral cause. God’s omnipotence is a non-moral attribute of His divine essence; His righteousness is a moral attribute of His. Neither attribute negates the other. There is no conflict in God’s essence. A righteous God would be untrue to Himself if he purposely created man so that he should fall only to command him not to sin. Moreover, if this were true, Adam and Eve could not have been justly punished for what is supposed to be a personal transgression against God who is actually just.

Now to answer your questions, God intended to create a world in which each person would be free to respond to his grace as a sign of their love for Him. There can be no true love without human free will and liberty. The fall of Adam and Eve was a consequence of their moral freedom which God intended that they should possess in order to truly love Him and make their abode with Him. Because of the fall which God foresaw when he created the world, it was His predestined (not predetermined) plan and His grace that went before Him to enable us to be saved. By His antecedent will, God desires that everyone be saved. Therefore, a person must wilfully reject God’s ‘predestined’ plan for his salvation in order to be damned. God had intended that a soul be saved this way: by not rejecting His word and resisting His grace. In consequence of the reprobate’s act God has predestined him to eternal damnation by His consequent will. With this will we can perceive God as not being self-contradictory – willing two different things at once – but as completely faithful to Himself. God does desire that everyone come to repentance and be saved, but He is also a just God who doesn’t tolerate sin and will punish those who refuse to repent. ‘The soul who sins is the one who will die’ (Ezek. 18:4). Thus what God has not intended is to predetermine the eternal destiny of souls which is why He appeals to us to cooperate with His saving grace: “Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!” (Ezek. 18:32).

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2, 3-4

The Lord is not slow to fulfil his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2 Peter 3, 9

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8

"Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"
Matthew 25, 41

“So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.”
Matthew 18, 14

My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2, 1-3

Christ is the expiation of the sins of the whole world – not only the elect. But not all who have been predestined to grace are predestined to glory of their own choosing. We can receive the grace of God in vain by choosing not to cooperate with God’s actual helping graces (cf. 2 Cor. 6:1). Predestination means that God knows what we will do before we do it, not that God determines what we do to the preclusion of our free will and liberty. Predestination is derived from the Greek word prooridzo which means to know and declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. If God infallibly knows who the elect are, then their salvation is assured, since what God knows must be. But God’s knowledge does not determine our actions as an efficient cause.

Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

Your interpretation of this verse is erroneous. As I mentioned above, God infallibly foresees human activity in the course of real time outside of it in the immediate eternal present. God foresees our actions precisely as each of us is willing to shape it. And what God foresees, He may use for His good purpose. Predestination is not predetermination of the human will. All human beings are responsible for their own sins.

So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
Romans 14, 12

The tree of knowledge of good and evil existed before the fall. Therefore evil is a concept that existed before the fall.

Evil appears to be something positive in and of itself when as subject it is predicated in a proposition. The same can be said for nothingness: "Nothing you say makes much sense." In other words, "There is no sense in what you say." (There is no good in Adam and Eve’s transgression.) Not unlike evil, unintelligibility accidentally arises by its own accord when someone fails to convey an intended meaning to another person. The speaker might be the physical cause of the nonsense he managed to orally produce, but his intention was to convey an intelligible and reasonable message to his listener in spite of his failure. The intended meaning of his words, therefore, would not arise of its own accord - apart from the speaker's will - in a vacuum if he had made sense in what he said. Similarly, evil accidentally arises of its own accord against God's antecedent will and His good purpose. Both God and the speaker are physically responsible for what has arisen through their mental acts of intention. Evil (nonsense) potentially existed before the fall only because goodness had already existed. If there were no good, there could be no evil by which goodness can be measured. Evil results from the privation of good as a deviation from what God desires. It is actualised each time we partake of the forbidden fruit. Evil arises from a vacuum in a world that is perfect, but not absolutely. Potentiality is a category of the actual natural world. An absolutely perfect world would hold no potentiality, since it would be an immutable world where nothing required was absent.

Aquinas argued that perfection in this world amounts to someone or something achieving its purpose. Human perfection lies in us achieving our proper end, viz. our intellectual capacities of understanding God and directing our will towards God by conforming it to His will. As I see it, Adam and Eve were created perfect in this way, but they were not created absolutely perfect. It's a dogma of the Catholic Church that only God is absolutely perfect. Only a Pantheist would dare to claim that created human nature has an equal share in God's divine nature. Aquinas would have argued that such an assumption would have compromised God's actuality. According to the angelic Doctor of the Church, God is absolutely perfect because He is entirely actual with no potential. All beings and things are perfect in proportion to their actuality. Adam and Eve were created perfect, but not absolutely, since they had the potential to freely fall short of achieving their purpose, which was to be good.

Ontologically absolute perfection or immutability is an attribute of God as a composition of His divine essence which binds all His other attributes together. God's faithfulness and justice, for instance, stem from His non-moral attribute of immutability which presuppose God cannot do any wrong as a consequence of contradicting Himself. So God can never be better or worse than He essentially is. Perfection cannot be improved upon. His righteousness and justice are immutable; in His essence God cannot ever be less righteous and just or unrighteous and unjust as we human beings can be. By nature, in comparison with His creatures, God is perfect. In His essence, God is absolute perfection, just as He is absolute love, righteousness, and justice. There is no such thing as less-than-perfect perfection or a less-than-perfect God – one who deliberately damns people for no fault of their own. Such a postulation is a contradiction in terms. If we are imperfect beings lacking in perfection, since there is such a thing as imperfection inherent in us, which we ourselves experience in our daily lives, then there must be an absolutely perfect being for all other beings to be like as far as they are able in their finite human nature. This absolutely perfect Being who sets a moral standard for us is God made visible in Christ. He embodies that perfection which we ourselves must try to attain in our imperfection. And this requires that all human beings have free will.

Please explain how Adam's nature changed when he first sinned. You seem to acknowledge that we now have a sinful nature…Now if Adam sinned when tempted the first time, how is that any different than him sinning a second time when tempted again? … Nature means how we are made. It does not mean that an action by one is genetically transferred to descendants. The fall did not change our nature. Adam and Eve were created with the same nature we now have. There were consequences of the first fall though, being punished by God.

As a Catholic, I believe original sin (a state) is proper to each human being; that we all have inherited Adam’s moral weakness in our humanity. But original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of us. Adam’s personal guilt is something no human being has inherited. I suppose, since we are all inclined to sin, and do in fact sin, we are guilty by association. Our human nature is certainly genetically transferred by our original ancestor. As soon as we are conceived in the womb, we acquire a nature that has the potential to draw us away from being good and thereby perfect. Thus we are deprived of the original state of sanctity and justice because of this potentiality. Our first nature is the originally good one that naturally is inclined towards what is good and comes from God. The ability we all have to direct our wills towards what is good comes from God’s sufficient grace. Our second nature is that of darkness which accidentally arises out of a vacuum because of our human condition. It prompts us to do what isn’t good and pleasing to God through our ego. Pride comes before the fall. Adam and Eve do in fact live inside each one of us. We all have inherited their selfishness which lies in our second nature.

In guilt I was born; a sinner was I conceived.
Psalm 51, 5


I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.
Romans 7, 15-19

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