God, omnibenevolent or omnipotent and omniscient?

[GoldenKingGaze]

This is a given ... God is an absolute, no beginning, no end, unmovable, unknowable ... in whom we live, move, and have our being, and by whose grace and mercy we are even able to conceive that there is a God.

I believe there is no place God is not; that there has never been a time where God has not filled all things … according to the mind of God … my question stated a bit different is, By what did God measure the depth of sin by if it never existed? … before time, before the heavens, and the earth, before angels … before anything ... Christ was not crucified before the foundation of the world, but from the foundation of the world ...

I'd say God knew Satan in advance and it was conscious anticipation.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

In theodicies we consider God almighty and how evil still occurs. Can God really turn Satan's heart into repentance at any time He wants, or annihilate him?

Some suppose that God has a special purpose for evil we don't know yet. Or God makes some people for Hell, but that isn't good. Then one can look at the beginning of sin among the angels and, why could not God save them, or bring to a quick repentance, or know ahead of time not to create certain angels. Some say evil leads to an appreciation of the constant good, and prevents conceit and arrogance. But if God is omniscient and omnipotent, then He does not need evil for any purpose, outside or inside Himself. God needs Satan? Can God prevent us from free willing bad choices? Because of free will, I do not think He can.

Which gives, to some limit? Onmibenevolence, Omniscience, omnipotence?

I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully "All will be saved." But my reason retorts, "Without their will, or with it?" If I say "Without their will" I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary If I say "With their will," my reason replies "How if they will not give in?"
C.S. Lewis

 

[Aseyesee]

I'd say God knew Satan in advance and it was conscious anticipation.

... knew it was in the end, going to be what came out of himself?

 

[com7fy8]

What do you think about God's omnipotence and our free will in regards to choice?

I'd say God knew Satan in advance and it was conscious anticipation.

Well . . . God did create Satan. So, He not only knew him, ahead of time, but He made him.

Now, about free choice. We did not freely choose to be created and be born in this evil world, into the situations that we were born into. So . . . no free will there.

"God resists the proud" > to me, this means God effectively resists evil people, howsoever God pleases. This is in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5 > so, this limits any freedom that proud people might have.

You can look at what happened with Joseph, in Genesis 37-50. His evil brothers sold him into slavery and then Joseph was blessed by God to become ruler of Egypt, except for the Pharaoh who remained higher than Joseph. And God used Joseph to manage resources in order to save many people's lives. So, the evil of his brothers was used for not only good for Joseph, but for all-loving good. Again . . . things worked very differently than what those brothers were willing and doing.

Plus, we have Romans 8:28 >

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.'" (Romans 8:28)

So, right while evil people are doing their "thing", God is using all for His all-loving good. Because God is all-loving.

This brings us to the character of God > God is all-loving, and from His character comes how God manages all things for His all-loving good. My opinion is that God, then, does not "choose" to do what is all-loving. He simply has character that is all-loving, so that He does what is all-loving. And, because He also is almighty, God does whatever He pleases.

Meanwhile, proud people "choose" and act from their prideful character. But their choosing is limited to how their character is. So, yes they make choices; however, how much control do they really have?

Those brothers of Joseph did have certain control; but it lasted and worked only in accordance with God's all-loving plan.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Well . . . God did create Satan. So, He not only knew him, ahead of time, but He made him.

Now, about free choice. We did not freely choose to be created and be born in this evil world, into the situations that we were born into. So . . . no free will there.

"God resists the proud" > to me, this means God effectively resists evil people, howsoever God pleases. This is in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5 > so, this limits any freedom that proud people might have.

You can look at what happened with Joseph, in Genesis 37-50. His evil brothers sold him into slavery and then Joseph was blessed by God to become ruler of Egypt, except for the Pharaoh who remained higher than Joseph. And God used Joseph to manage resources in order to save many people's lives. So, the evil of his brothers was used for not only good for Joseph, but for all-loving good. Again . . . things worked very differently than what those brothers were willing and doing.

Plus, we have Romans 8:28 >

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.'" (Romans 8:28)

So, right while evil people are doing their "thing", God is using all for His all-loving good. Because God is all-loving.

This brings us to the character of God > God is all-loving, and from His character comes how God manages all things for His all-loving good. My opinion is that God, then, does not "choose" to do what is all-loving. He simply has character that is all-loving, so that He does what is all-loving. And, because He also is almighty, God does whatever He pleases.

Meanwhile, proud people "choose" and act from their prideful character. But their choosing is limited to how their character is. So, yes they make choices; however, how much control do they really have?

Those brothers of Joseph did have certain control; but it lasted and worked only in accordance with God's all-loving plan.

The same argument could be made about why God created the tree of knowledge, knowing that humanity would fall into sin. I believe the simplest answer is that God wanted humanity to have a choice. Just imagine what would have happened if Adam and Eve had confessed their sin and asked for forgiveness. When God asked Adam if he had eaten from the forbidden tree, that was a decision-making opportunity. Adam was allowed to confess his sin and seek forgiveness. If he had done so, God would have demonstrated his glory and grace through forgiveness. But Adam and Eve chose not only to blame each other, but they also blamed God. Therefore, Adam and Eve chose God's wrath.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

... knew it was in the end, going to be what came out of himself?

Evil didn't come out of God, He knew a perfectly good spirit would invent the absence of light.... but some others think God fore-installed evil.

 

[Aseyesee]

Evil didn't come out of God, He knew a perfectly good spirit would invent the absence of light.... but some others think God fore-installed evil.

So God knowing this, and what would come of it, did it anyway ...

 

[Aseyesee]

Therefore, Adam and Eve chose God's wrath.

They no more understood death then they would have understood wrath ... knowledge being the path to this ...

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Evil didn't come out of God, He knew a perfectly good spirit would invent the absence of light.... but some others think God fore-installed evil.

I agree. If anything, God is responsible for the possibility of evil, but we are responsible for the actuality of evil. Evil is not a thing, but an absence of something that ought to be there. I would argue that at its root, love is the thing that is absent. God is omni benevolent, meaning that only goodness can come from Him. Evil is an absence of God, and an absence of love.

 

[com7fy8]

Evil didn't come out of God,

As it is written >

"God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone." (in James 1:13)

From this, I understand that God who is all good could not have brought evil into existence. So, I would say from this, that God did not create "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" > in Ephesians 2:2. And His creation was "very good"; so what is very good would not have produced this evil spirit of Satan, plus what is very good by character could not have gotten its own self to choose what is evil.

He knew a perfectly good spirit would invent the absence of light.... but some others think God fore-installed evil.

In my opinion, what is perfectly good by character could not invent what is evil or "the absence of light".

What do you mean by "fore-installed evil"? If you mean God created evil from nothing, I would say, no; because God who is all good would not create the spirit of evil > "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2).

But does God have control of what Satan's evil spirit can do and not do? Yes. In God's all-control and order, Satan is a vessel, even, for holding the spirit of evil so it is not all over the place, doing any old thing. God has control with order, so you can see there is a certain sort of control and order, even of evil > evil people are not totally free to do all that they would do; and we see how totally evil people actually change to become followers of Jesus.

 

[Aseyesee]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[Aseyesee]

1 Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

God doesnt tempt anyone (but he will both allow (as with Job), and lead you into it) ... but by the above verses one would have to come to the conclusion, that he gets the devil to do it for him ...

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Look at the Hebrew word for evil in that text. Hint: only the KJV says evil. The rest says something else for a very good reason.

 

[Aseyesee]

Same

Look at the Hebrew word for evil in that text. Hint: only the KJV says evil. The rest says something else for a very good reason.

The same word (in the hebrew text) is used to describe the thoughts of the hearts of men ... or a fruit of the tree ... or the same word "ra" in the following ...

Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Isa 41:22-23 Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

If you excuse this one scripture, you must excuse a couple hundred others, where God states "I will bring evil upon them"

 

[Godcrazy]

In theodicies we consider God almighty and how evil still occurs. Can God really turn Satan's heart into repentance at any time He wants, or annihilate him?

Some suppose that God has a special purpose for evil we don't know yet. Or God makes some people for Hell, but that isn't good. Then one can look at the beginning of sin among the angels and, why could not God save them, or bring to a quick repentance, or know ahead of time not to create certain angels. Some say evil leads to an appreciation of the constant good, and prevents conceit and arrogance. But if God is omniscient and omnipotent, then He does not need evil for any purpose, outside or inside Himself. God needs Satan? Can God prevent us from free willing bad choices? Because of free will, I do not think He can.

Which gives, to some limit? Onmibenevolence, Omniscience, omnipotence?

You have to think about the angels and satan were given total free will, total see everything know everything, therefore, they made a full deliberate choice. As well according to what the exorcists say an angel cannot go back on its choice once made. They are created that way, as well what I said previously. It is either obey or disobey for them. Therefore they cannot repent. They know fully well the full scope of their choices. More than humans. they are even made so they can`t repent because of what I mentioned. You can say they mock the holy spirit.
God does not usually prevent us from making a bad choice, as he has given us free will. He protects us many times even when we don`t deserve it. Think about children if we don`t let them make their choices, they don`t learn. we are still there to help them.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Same

The same word (in the hebrew text) is used to describe the thoughts of the hearts of men ... or a fruit of the tree ... or the same word "ra" in the following ...

Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Isa 41:22-23 Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

If you excuse this one scripture, you must excuse a couple hundred others, where God states "I will bring evil upon them"

Yes. The word is often translated as 'evil or 'wickedness,' but it has a wider semantic range that includes 'calamity' or 'disaster.' One variation of the word means 'hunger or 'famine,' a more specific form of disaster. The Tanakh uses the word 'woe.' Calamity or disaster is a much more accurate translation choice because it not only fits with the context of the passage, but also preserves the omnibebevolence of God.