God, omnibenevolent or omnipotent and omniscient?

[GoldenKingGaze]

This is a given ... God is an absolute, no beginning, no end, unmovable, unknowable ... in whom we live, move, and have our being, and by whose grace and mercy we are even able to conceive that there is a God.

I believe there is no place God is not; that there has never been a time where God has not filled all things … according to the mind of God … my question stated a bit different is, By what did God measure the depth of sin by if it never existed? … before time, before the heavens, and the earth, before angels … before anything ... Christ was not crucified before the foundation of the world, but from the foundation of the world ...

I'd say God knew Satan in advance and it was conscious anticipation.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

In theodicies we consider God almighty and how evil still occurs. Can God really turn Satan's heart into repentance at any time He wants, or annihilate him?

Some suppose that God has a special purpose for evil we don't know yet. Or God makes some people for Hell, but that isn't good. Then one can look at the beginning of sin among the angels and, why could not God save them, or bring to a quick repentance, or know ahead of time not to create certain angels. Some say evil leads to an appreciation of the constant good, and prevents conceit and arrogance. But if God is omniscient and omnipotent, then He does not need evil for any purpose, outside or inside Himself. God needs Satan? Can God prevent us from free willing bad choices? Because of free will, I do not think He can.

Which gives, to some limit? Onmibenevolence, Omniscience, omnipotence?

I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully "All will be saved." But my reason retorts, "Without their will, or with it?" If I say "Without their will" I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary If I say "With their will," my reason replies "How if they will not give in?"
C.S. Lewis

 

[Aseyesee]

I'd say God knew Satan in advance and it was conscious anticipation.

... knew it was in the end, going to be what came out of himself?

 

[com7fy8]

What do you think about God's omnipotence and our free will in regards to choice?

I'd say God knew Satan in advance and it was conscious anticipation.

Well . . . God did create Satan. So, He not only knew him, ahead of time, but He made him.

Now, about free choice. We did not freely choose to be created and be born in this evil world, into the situations that we were born into. So . . . no free will there.

"God resists the proud" > to me, this means God effectively resists evil people, howsoever God pleases. This is in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5 > so, this limits any freedom that proud people might have.

You can look at what happened with Joseph, in Genesis 37-50. His evil brothers sold him into slavery and then Joseph was blessed by God to become ruler of Egypt, except for the Pharaoh who remained higher than Joseph. And God used Joseph to manage resources in order to save many people's lives. So, the evil of his brothers was used for not only good for Joseph, but for all-loving good. Again . . . things worked very differently than what those brothers were willing and doing.

Plus, we have Romans 8:28 >

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.'" (Romans 8:28)

So, right while evil people are doing their "thing", God is using all for His all-loving good. Because God is all-loving.

This brings us to the character of God > God is all-loving, and from His character comes how God manages all things for His all-loving good. My opinion is that God, then, does not "choose" to do what is all-loving. He simply has character that is all-loving, so that He does what is all-loving. And, because He also is almighty, God does whatever He pleases.

Meanwhile, proud people "choose" and act from their prideful character. But their choosing is limited to how their character is. So, yes they make choices; however, how much control do they really have?

Those brothers of Joseph did have certain control; but it lasted and worked only in accordance with God's all-loving plan.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Well . . . God did create Satan. So, He not only knew him, ahead of time, but He made him.

Now, about free choice. We did not freely choose to be created and be born in this evil world, into the situations that we were born into. So . . . no free will there.

"God resists the proud" > to me, this means God effectively resists evil people, howsoever God pleases. This is in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5 > so, this limits any freedom that proud people might have.

You can look at what happened with Joseph, in Genesis 37-50. His evil brothers sold him into slavery and then Joseph was blessed by God to become ruler of Egypt, except for the Pharaoh who remained higher than Joseph. And God used Joseph to manage resources in order to save many people's lives. So, the evil of his brothers was used for not only good for Joseph, but for all-loving good. Again . . . things worked very differently than what those brothers were willing and doing.

Plus, we have Romans 8:28 >

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.'" (Romans 8:28)

So, right while evil people are doing their "thing", God is using all for His all-loving good. Because God is all-loving.

This brings us to the character of God > God is all-loving, and from His character comes how God manages all things for His all-loving good. My opinion is that God, then, does not "choose" to do what is all-loving. He simply has character that is all-loving, so that He does what is all-loving. And, because He also is almighty, God does whatever He pleases.

Meanwhile, proud people "choose" and act from their prideful character. But their choosing is limited to how their character is. So, yes they make choices; however, how much control do they really have?

Those brothers of Joseph did have certain control; but it lasted and worked only in accordance with God's all-loving plan.

The same argument could be made about why God created the tree of knowledge, knowing that humanity would fall into sin. I believe the simplest answer is that God wanted humanity to have a choice. Just imagine what would have happened if Adam and Eve had confessed their sin and asked for forgiveness. When God asked Adam if he had eaten from the forbidden tree, that was a decision-making opportunity. Adam was allowed to confess his sin and seek forgiveness. If he had done so, God would have demonstrated his glory and grace through forgiveness. But Adam and Eve chose not only to blame each other, but they also blamed God. Therefore, Adam and Eve chose God's wrath.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

... knew it was in the end, going to be what came out of himself?

Evil didn't come out of God, He knew a perfectly good spirit would invent the absence of light.... but some others think God fore-installed evil.

 

[Aseyesee]

Evil didn't come out of God, He knew a perfectly good spirit would invent the absence of light.... but some others think God fore-installed evil.

So God knowing this, and what would come of it, did it anyway ...

 

[Aseyesee]

Therefore, Adam and Eve chose God's wrath.

They no more understood death then they would have understood wrath ... knowledge being the path to this ...

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Evil didn't come out of God, He knew a perfectly good spirit would invent the absence of light.... but some others think God fore-installed evil.

I agree. If anything, God is responsible for the possibility of evil, but we are responsible for the actuality of evil. Evil is not a thing, but an absence of something that ought to be there. I would argue that at its root, love is the thing that is absent. God is omni benevolent, meaning that only goodness can come from Him. Evil is an absence of God, and an absence of love.

 

[com7fy8]

Evil didn't come out of God,

As it is written >

"God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone." (in James 1:13)

From this, I understand that God who is all good could not have brought evil into existence. So, I would say from this, that God did not create "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" > in Ephesians 2:2. And His creation was "very good"; so what is very good would not have produced this evil spirit of Satan, plus what is very good by character could not have gotten its own self to choose what is evil.

He knew a perfectly good spirit would invent the absence of light.... but some others think God fore-installed evil.

In my opinion, what is perfectly good by character could not invent what is evil or "the absence of light".

What do you mean by "fore-installed evil"? If you mean God created evil from nothing, I would say, no; because God who is all good would not create the spirit of evil > "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2).

But does God have control of what Satan's evil spirit can do and not do? Yes. In God's all-control and order, Satan is a vessel, even, for holding the spirit of evil so it is not all over the place, doing any old thing. God has control with order, so you can see there is a certain sort of control and order, even of evil > evil people are not totally free to do all that they would do; and we see how totally evil people actually change to become followers of Jesus.

 

[Aseyesee]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[Aseyesee]

1 Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

God doesnt tempt anyone (but he will both allow (as with Job), and lead you into it) ... but by the above verses one would have to come to the conclusion, that he gets the devil to do it for him ...

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Look at the Hebrew word for evil in that text. Hint: only the KJV says evil. The rest says something else for a very good reason.

 

[Aseyesee]

Look at the Hebrew word for evil in that text. Hint: only the KJV says evil. The rest says something else for a very good reason.

The same word (in the hebrew text) is used to describe the thoughts of the hearts of men ... or a fruit of the tree ... or the same word "ra" in the following ...

Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Isa 41:22-23 Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

If you excuse this one scripture, you must excuse a couple hundred others, where God states "I will bring evil upon them"

 

[Godcrazy]

In theodicies we consider God almighty and how evil still occurs. Can God really turn Satan's heart into repentance at any time He wants, or annihilate him?

Some suppose that God has a special purpose for evil we don't know yet. Or God makes some people for Hell, but that isn't good. Then one can look at the beginning of sin among the angels and, why could not God save them, or bring to a quick repentance, or know ahead of time not to create certain angels. Some say evil leads to an appreciation of the constant good, and prevents conceit and arrogance. But if God is omniscient and omnipotent, then He does not need evil for any purpose, outside or inside Himself. God needs Satan? Can God prevent us from free willing bad choices? Because of free will, I do not think He can.

Which gives, to some limit? Onmibenevolence, Omniscience, omnipotence?

You have to think about the angels and satan were given total free will, total see everything know everything, therefore, they made a full deliberate choice. As well according to what the exorcists say an angel cannot go back on its choice once made. They are created that way, as well what I said previously. It is either obey or disobey for them. Therefore they cannot repent. They know fully well the full scope of their choices. More than humans. they are even made so they can`t repent because of what I mentioned. You can say they mock the holy spirit.
God does not usually prevent us from making a bad choice, as he has given us free will. He protects us many times even when we don`t deserve it. Think about children if we don`t let them make their choices, they don`t learn. we are still there to help them.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Same

The same word (in the hebrew text) is used to describe the thoughts of the hearts of men ... or a fruit of the tree ... or the same word "ra" in the following ...

Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Isa 41:22-23 Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

If you excuse this one scripture, you must excuse a couple hundred others, where God states "I will bring evil upon them"

Yes. The word is often translated as 'evil or 'wickedness,' but it has a wider semantic range that includes 'calamity' or 'disaster.' One variation of the word means 'hunger or 'famine,' a more specific form of disaster. The Tanakh uses the word 'woe.' Calamity or disaster is a much more accurate translation choice because it not only fits with the context of the passage, but also preserves the omnibebevolence of God.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

God is omnipotent . . . to me meaning He is the most powerful of all in existence. And so, God at any moment can do any good, at all, in spite of any evil, at all. And no one stops Him. Ones can seem to, by coinciding against what God is not going to do, "anyway"

And God being almighty means He is able to change our character so we are like Jesus > how He is all-loving, perfectly pleasing to our Father, plus almighty in immunity against any and all cruel and nasty and naughty emotions and feelings and drives and thinking. In His love is this almighty immunity while we are functioning in His gentleness and quietness with compassion for any and all people. And this is family caring and sharing love with our others who are sharing with Jesus like this.

God is omniscient . . . to me meaning God does know all because He is present everywhere. Plus, He has memory to remember any and all of the past, hence He is able to bring up all our past in the day of judgment, among other items. And He knows the future, already, if He is in control of all that will happen.

So, then . . . is God omnibenevolent > or, ones say, "all-loving" and "unconditional" in how He loves?

Jesus died on the cross for all > "for the whole world" >

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

Also, our Apostle Paul says >

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)

So, to me this means: if God is "the Savior of all men", then He is all-loving and there are no conditions for Him to love any and all people. And so, by the way, then, if we are going to become like Jesus and share personally with God Himself in us, then we need how God changes our character so we are all-loving unconditionally in sharing with Him in this love which makes us loving like God through Jesus. And this includes loving like Jesus on the cross > we are commanded to love like this >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

And this works by means of God in His grace working and living in us to share with us how He in us so loves any and all people, unconditionally. Plus, God our Creator in us makes us also creative for how to love each and every person. And Jesus enforces this, by saying >

"if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

So, then, what about the more obviously evil people who are into terrorism and attacking and killing unborn people and violating children with anti-sexual ideas and keeping politicians from doing all the good they could do?

"God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. God who is almighty is now effectively resisting all the wrong people we might know about. God's caring resistance is for our good, but also this is helping evil people to not get into as much trouble and harm as they could. And so God is loving and blessing even the most awful and horrible people that there are.

God leaves a lot up to us as His hands and feet and tongues. King Saul was proud. After a long while he was subdued. The terrorists and some others have great hubris.

1 Tim 4:10 is a good quote. God has great power to save all people and some may be surprised to end up after death, engulfed in light and salvation. All deceased babies. But there is the hardening of the heart to salvation which can result in eternal damnation. I think Satan has such a hard heart. God will not force worship from Satan, God is not forceful with love... it has to be free. What Satan wants is more than God is willing to give him in restoration... so he won't repent. Satan is the root behind temptation and all terrorism and adultery...

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

... knew it was in the end, going to be what came out of himself?

Out of Himself? A perfect angel came out of Him, but He knew a lot of the angels would seek an iniquitous path. That path did not come from God at all. And He could not override their choice. Not that He had some purpose for it, but great foresight and ingenuity makes use of it.

Ezekiel 28:15

Some ask, can God make a rock bigger than He can lift? To contradict omnipotence. I think yes, and He did not create all of the angels possible for that reason. He left out the most dangerous and injurious ones. So evil most diligently comes to nought with minimal losses and anguish.

If God left out the ones who fell, maybe now or even after a trillion years, something could be anticipated that is worse. Strangely thanks to Luc, we can obtain a greater and permanent holiness and glory. But it is not as simple as being touched by grace and making a choice, it takes many choices to install.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I agree. If anything, God is responsible for the possibility of evil, but we are responsible for the actuality of evil. Evil is not a thing, but an absence of something that ought to be there. I would argue that at its root, love is the thing that is absent. God is omni benevolent, meaning that only goodness can come from Him. Evil is an absence of God, and an absence of love.

I also think Satan lost his love, but evil goes beyond lovelessness, but seeks ambitiously to overpower God and have the Godhead as a tool...

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

You have to think about the angels and satan were given total free will, total see everything know everything, therefore, they made a full deliberate choice. As well according to what the exorcists say an angel cannot go back on its choice once made. They are created that way, as well what I said previously. It is either obey or disobey for them. Therefore they cannot repent. They know fully well the full scope of their choices. More than humans. they are even made so they can`t repent because of what I mentioned. You can say they mock the holy spirit.
God does not usually prevent us from making a bad choice, as he has given us free will. He protects us many times even when we don`t deserve it. Think about children if we don`t let them make their choices, they don`t learn. we are still there to help them.

The angels had access to everything God had, Hebrews 6:6 and knew everything about God very well, and so they can't repent because they want the Godhead itself, and won't have restoration of say seven fold. And there is nothing to soften their hearts that they have not hated, except for the Blood of Jesus and the resurrection power, which by nature they oppose.