Null/Voided Out

[Clare73]

So God is love, but not inordinate love? That what you're saying?

I think you may be worrying too much about sounding righteous and making a few little jibes as you go.

Don't worry, I've been there, the whited sepulchre routine.

Would that be the reason for the over-reaction to God's justice on unbelief in the person and work of Jesus Christ?

 

[Clare73]

No, the end is about reconciliation. (reconciled = past tense)

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ
and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling
the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.
And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

The "reconciled" (past tense) of man (Jew and Gentile) with God (as well as Jew with Gentile) took place at the cross (Eph 2:16).
There is no other reconciliation for anyone not reconciled through faith in that reconciliation.
There is only justice for rejecting so great a salvation.

]Hope we can share the faith that Jesus will free us from those sins and raise us above it.

 

[Hawkins]

No, the end is about reconciliation. (reconciled = past tense)

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ
and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling
the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.
And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

So those thrown into the Lake of Fire because they failed the reconciliation? So no, they failed because they failed the judgment with New Covenant in place.

Judgment originally comes as a result of Law. If no Law then no judgment is required. A covenant acts as an alternative of Law. It is so because humans have no hope to pass the judgment of Law. Covenants can act as such an alternative simply because Jesus paid the price. This applies to all mankind without exception. Reconciliation only applies those who are willing to repent, and in the presence of a mediator. Reconciliation doesn't apply to all mankind, but judgment by covenant does.

 

[Saint Steven]

If they present no final judgment nor justice for unbelief in the person and work of Jesus Christ, then you have provided quite a list of heretical documents.

No, nothing like that. Here are two examples.

Matthew 25:46 The Weymouth New Testament
"And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Saint Steven said: ↑
Here are a few I could recommend.

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46

Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

 

[Saint Steven]

The "reconciled" (past tense) of man (Jew and Gentile) with God (as well as Jew with Gentile) took place at the cross (Eph 2:16).
There is no other reconciliation for anyone not reconciled through faith in that reconciliation.
There is only justice for rejecting so great a salvation.

If that is true, then what is the ministry of reconciliation that we have been given?

Saint Steven said: ↑
No, the end is about reconciliation. (reconciled = past tense)

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ
and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling
the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.
And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

 

[Saint Steven]

So those thrown into the Lake of Fire because they failed the reconciliation? So no, they failed because they failed the judgment with New Covenant in place.

Judgment originally comes as a result of Law. If no Law then no judgment is required. A covenant acts as an alternative of Law. It is so because humans have no hope to pass the judgment of Law. Covenants can act as such an alternative simply because Jesus paid the price. This applies to all mankind without exception. Reconciliation only applies those who are willing to repent, and in the presence of a mediator. Reconciliation doesn't apply to all mankind, but judgment by covenant does.

So, you are arguing against the scripture below?

Saint Steven said: ↑
No, the end is about reconciliation. (reconciled = past tense)

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ
and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling
the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.
And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

 

[1213]

So the Bible doesn't give you what you want or need. What happened to all those promises of Christ to free the slaves and heal the lepers? Not applicable?...

My point was, in here, what the Bible tells is more important than my needs or feelings. The debate should not be about what I feel or need, but about what the Bible tells. It and its message is greater than me. And the message should not be changed by my feelings of needs.

 

[1213]

Fair enough. What do you make of this?

Matt 19:28
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

I would like to know what translations are you using?

For example, World English Bible says:

Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I tell you that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on the throne of his glory, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matt 19:28

I believe things will be restored as He promised. It is not necessary the same as everything will be restored.

 

[Clare73]

No, nothing like that. Here are two examples.

Matthew 25:46 The Weymouth New Testament
"And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."

What do you think "of the Ages" (plural) means?

Do you know what the understood meaning in Greek was "of the Ages" 2,000 years ago, and
not in the classical Greek, but in the koine Greek?
Greek scholars do, and that's where the translations you reject come from.

Perhaps, in addition to writing your own Bible with ShrewdManager, you should also become a Greek scholar before you argue translation.

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Would that mean "enduring Age"?
What do you think "age-during" means?

Keeping in mind man has already been reconciled to God in the cross (Eph 2:16),
God won't be doing that to his Son again, there is no other reconciliation.

All who are crass enough to reject such a price paid for that reconciliation will not be "favored" by God.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Here are a few I could recommend.

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46

Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

 

[Hawkins]

So, you are arguing against the scripture below?

Saint Steven said: ↑
No, the end is about reconciliation. (reconciled = past tense)

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ
and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling
the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.
And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

No, that's not about the New Covenant relation to the Final Judgment.

 

[Clare73]

If that is true, then what is the ministry of reconciliation that we have been given?

To bring men to faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, which is the only way to accept/receive the reconciliation God has made available.

All who do not receive (believe) it are not reconciled, and there is no other reconciliation.
God will not be doing that to his Son a second time.

And those hearts hard enough to reject so great a salvation will not enjoy God's favor. . .trust me.

Saint Steven said: ↑
No, the end is about reconciliation. (reconciled = past tense)

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ
and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling
the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.
And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

 

[Saint Steven]

I would like to know what translations are you using?

NIV

Saint Steven said: ↑
Fair enough. What do you make of this?

Matt 19:28
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

the over-reaction to God's justice

Not sure what you mean there. God hates an unequal balance. Everyone reaps what they sow. That's the principle of divine justice. Perhaps you could explain how that fits with your cherished doctrine of inordinate divine hatred - infinite punishment for finite sin..?

God's justice is about setting right, not getting even. Retribution is only one of the corrective measures for use in the divine equitable plan.

unbelief in the person and work of Jesus Christ?

So the belief that Jesus can and will save ALL honours God less than the belief he can and will save just a few? How do you figure that?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

My point was, in here, what the Bible tells is more important than my needs or feelings. The debate should not be about what I feel or need, but about what the Bible tells. It and its message is greater than me. And the message should not be changed by my feelings of needs.

Okay, so feel free to put aside your needs and feelings that you inherit heaven and your enemies get bbq'd forever.

As God's made man in His image, and He assures us that He is love and knows creation needs saving from the dust-eating serpent, then how can your God-given powers of deduction and a little faith in His sovereignty and righteousness lead you anywhere but the conclusion of salvation of all?

Particularly when there's no precedent in the Bible for a Lake of Fire in the literal sense - apart from incinerating children in the fires of Ba'al in the Hinnom Valley for which 'it never entered God's mind' (Jer 32:35).

The precedents we see are lavers outside the temple for cleansing - a classic example is Solomon's Molten Sea in 1 Kings 7:25 et seq.

The 2nd temple Jews were mad about mikvaot - the ceremonial cleansing baths outside the temple.
Mikveh
Holy Temple Mikveh Discovered

We also see this in John 5, the Pool of Bethesda.

Cleansing for communion has been a Christian ritual from the start.

Since there's all this and more pointing you in the right direction, so why do 'not' your needs and feelings require you to build an oven out of God's love and roast everyone else in it?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

To bring men to faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, which is the only way to accept/receive the reconciliation God has made available.

All who do not receive (believe) it are not reconciled, and there is no other reconciliation.
God will not be doing that to his Son a second time.

And those hearts hard enough to reject so great a salvation will not enjoy God's favor. . .trust me.

You keep talking as though you did something to earn salvation, as though you're more worthy of salvation than others. God pours out His spirit. And when He does, people accept Him and repent.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. (Lk 18:11)

Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you. (Mt 21:31b)

And how will you escape the sentence of hell? (Mt 23:33b)

Really, why 'you' and not 'them' - is it your own righteousness, does God love you more than them for some reason?

 

[1213]

... then how can your God-given powers of deduction and a little faith in His sovereignty and righteousness lead you anywhere but the conclusion of salvation of all?....

I believe salvation is for all, meaning, everyone has it offered to them. But, that is only part of the whole matter. Eternal life is promised for righteous, that and the scriptures below are the reason why I believe not all will have the eternal life.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20

 

[1213]

...What do you make of this?

Matt 19:28
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

I believe that God renews things as He has promised. I don’t think that means that all people will then have eternal life, because:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

 

[Saint Steven]

I believe that God renews things as He has promised. I don’t think that means that all people will then have eternal life, because:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Where was Christ and what did he do for the three days after his crucifixion?
What does Romans 14:9 say about the dead?

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I believe salvation is for all, meaning, everyone has it offered to them. But, that is only part of the whole matter. Eternal life is promised for righteous, that and the scriptures below are the reason why I believe not all will have the eternal life.

So you're sure that a few disparate scriptures that seem to indicate most won't get eternal life is enough to shut it all down?

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

Punishment is kolasin, as distinct from timoria. The former is corrective, the latter retributive punishment. With God it's always kolasin, never timoria. So 'eternal correction' is a bit of a paradox, because correction has an objective/ an outcome. Hence the word 'aionion' is either better translated 'world' or 'age' here, as it is in many other verses in the NT.

Will you have a little faith that God doesn't bury the doctrine of eternal punishment - the scariest doctrine ever - in a few disparate scriptures.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Hang on, I thought Mt 25:46 teaches the wages of sin is eternal punishment. Which is it?

 

[1213]

So you're sure that a few disparate scriptures that seem to indicate most won't get eternal life is enough to shut it all down?...

There are more than those two, but I think all scriptures are meaningful and important in the Bible and so those two are enough in this case for me. I have no reason to try to change them, or their meaning.