God is Said to do that which He Merely Allowed or Permitted

[Gxg (G²)]

This is where a lot of WoF people get off track. They're not mature enough or sufficiently grounded in the Word to recognize the different between Christian confession and New Age affirmation. They don't see the different between self-centered spirituality and Christ-centered spirituality. They don't understand that The Law of Attraction isn't the same thing as receiving the promises of God through biblical faith. As a result they fall prey to New Age concepts and teaching. And it's not just the newbies. Some WoF teachers also don't seem to discern the difference. That's what has inspired so many of the anti-WoF books and videos. It's time we bring WoF people back in line with biblical faith, confession, and visualization.

Good point...

 

[tbeachhead]

Sorry this took so long to answer...As soon as I found time, y'all got a little heated! New forum, new culture. Imagine a world where "mutual respect" does not mean "unilateral capitulation." It will take getting used to!

Warning...this argument sickened me for weeks. I had to settle that Hebrew Mythology got it wrong, and no one teaches this doctrine. I had to be comfortable with my discomfiture, and wary not to argue....what's ahead is not blasphemy, though it is a direct contradiction of everything the church has always taught.

With that in mind, remember please: I am a French teacher and no prophet...a friend and no enemy.

This may actually be a better thread. Hmm. I believe that Satan was something higher than a beast of the field. I believe he was an archangel who was cast from heaven. Jesus tells us this in Luke 10:18. We also see:

Isa 14:12 (KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!​

​

You are assuming that "Lucifer", the one who bears the light, is satan. Everyone does. That would assume that Satan was the morning star...the star of the morning. Obviously I have real problems with that, given that Jesus is the Rose of Sharon, the bright and morning star. He is not the last satan...He is, however the last Adam.

Now...All I know of the serpent, nachash, is this: He was more wilely than all the beasts of the field. To me that places him in the garden with all the beasts Adam named. In fact, Adam named Nachash "Nachash...", because he was so bright and shiny. But Adam, who had already been given dominion over all the beasts of the field, gave him the name. Nachash, before his debut in the garden, has no history...none. Jesus says he was a liar from the beginning and the father of all lies. This agrees with Genesis being actually the genesis.

So what's going on in Isaiah, and in the parallel passage in Ezekiel?

Well...to being with, several more verses:

13. You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God. I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mont of assembly...I will make myself like the most High.​

I don't see the serpent doing that...But I do see someone. Who is it that says, "I will be like God...?"

And then he's brought down low...and what is the reaction when this happens. What do folks say?

16 "Is this the man who made the earth tremble...?
​

If it was an angel, why do those who gaze ask if this is the "man?" The Hebrew uses the word "ish", here, not "Adam", but even so, "ish" is not used for supernatural beings. We are all ishi and beni Adam.

Now let me think. Of all creation, who was created perfect...as in the image and likeness of God Himself? Who never had to strive to be like God? Who was given command and rule, like God? Dominion and power? Who is destined for the throne?

Was satan ever destined for the throne?

He fell (already, in the past) from heaven. (And I agree that prior to the fall Adam had authority over him.[1]) He was cut down to earth -- that's a violent picture. But his falling weakened the nations (his deception is great).

If satan fell and was cut down to earth...what's he doing among the sons of God in Job? What's he doing accusing the brethren day and night before the throne? Satan has no place in heaven...yet he holds great dominion and influence...how can this be?

Here's a strange enigma. Why does proverbs say that one of the five things that the earth cannot abide is a "...servant, when he rules over a master...?"

The earth is cursed when that over which I have delegated rule rules over me. That is the reality of the fall, and the perfect one, perfect in all his ways, the cherub that covers the whole earth, was so, until iniquity was found in him.

Then he was expelled from the garden.

The rest of this Isaiah set of verses describes Lucifer's desire to rise above God. His pride made him want to be like God. In verse 16 we see that he was one who made the earth tremble, he shook kingdoms; he made the world a wilderness, destroyed cities.

But in Luke 10:19 Jesus gives us authority over the full force of the enemy. We do not have to fear Satan at all. Not because he is just a beast of the field -- for he was not a snake, but inhabited the body of a snake -- but because as strong as he may have been, we have been given authority over him. He can't hurt us. We resist and he must flee.

Except the Bible calls him the serpent from Genesis all the way to Revelation. The dragon is "the serpent of old..." Never an angel, never fighting to be restored...only seeking to usurp the reign that was never ever his.

Why would it make Jesus a liar?

Because he was a liar "from the beginning."

First you must define "the beginning." The beginning of what? This is the bible and is a book describing the beginning of our earth and of mankind. It does NOT show us the creation of the angels. Nowhere. So from what beginning? I say the beginning described in Genesis -- of our world and of mankind.

I define "beginning" in Genesis the same way I define it in John and Proverbs. I like consistency. I see no reason to say "in the second beginning God..." I would probably, for clarity, say, "In God's second attempt He..."

So Jesus is saying that Satan was a liar from the beginning....from whence (and because of which) he was cast down to the earth.

This is interesting. He lost mobility, and was consigned to the dust...It looks like he lost his spiritual body, and his only recourse and sustenance was flesh. Hell is a life without spirit...His is realm of the flesh, and the only way he can influence anything spiritual is to distract and obsess a spiritual being...Rick Joyner has him riding Christians around...We accuse the brethren, and we alone have the right to stand before God. His is the influence that impels us.

When iniquity was found in him. This is the beginning of when Satan is a liar.

I see no evidence at all that the father of lies was ever perfect in all his ways.

Let's let the Word show us who Lucifer, who is Satan, is:

Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.​

​

Could we just look at creation for a second? I see only one created perfect in all his ways...Only one made in the image and likeness of The Perfect One. Only one. And unto that one was given the anointing, the mantel of authority, rule and majesty. Unto him alone was consigned the naming of things. It was not unto the serpent.

No. I have the Bible in my understanding as complete...no chapters missing. No prequel. The Word was made Flesh, because there was nothing higher. God put perfection in us...because we were destined to be the Bride. It is not good for man to be alone: Love with no object was not love. He did not create all things to improve on his past mistakes...He created all things to love to the fullest measure, because He is Love, and His Word is the seed that produces fruit...but only through man is that fruit to come. In us, with us, for us, and through us so that all nature know love.

16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.

Where did satan trade?

But man traded.

17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.

Parallel to Isaiah...and they say, "Is this the man..."​

Verse 15 does not make Jesus a liar. Lucifer was perfect as the anointed cherub that covers. But once iniquity was found in him he was a liar. He grew in pride. He attempted to rise above God. Then he was cast down to the created earth, the beginning for mankind. And in man's age Satan has always been a liar.

Without two separate creations this does not work. I do not believe in a second creation...That is all.

Nothing points to the serpent in those verses...Everything points to a man. Jesus even called Peter satan... because the adversary only works by seducing and misleading the man. Of himself, the serpent never could do anything.

Even in the garden, had Adam stepped on the serpent's head, the story would have come to an end. He had no higher power than the deception he practiced on Eve. And even now, as the last Adam has crushed his head, there is nothing satan can do but deceive. He has the full authority of those whose power he has usurped. It is never his...

Satan said, "All these kingdoms I will give to you, for they are given to me..." by whom? What kings in the OT gave themselves over to Baal to be ruled by him? That is the nature of rebellion: It is planted deep in the heart of Adam.

I don't know, Pete. The bible says that before iniquity was found in him he "walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones." He was in heaven, in the throne room of God. He was anointed. Then he sinned, was cast down, and has lied ever since.

Yes...A perfect description of Adam before he fell...Try to describe Adam better. How much better than perfecction is the image and likeness of God?

I believe that because of the magnitude of his sin he was execrated. Cut off with no possibility of salvation. No repentance. No forgiveness. And because of this he wants to take as many with him as he can.

The serpent had no place but the garden...and in his deception, he lost that. Heaven was never creatquoed for him, but for Man to dwell with the Most High...as His spouse.

But Satan is a created being. Would you agree? Did God create something that was never good? Something that simply had no chance? Did God create something evil?

God created a serpent that was wily...and willful...and Man to be lord, who fell into deception.

I'll get to your other post later. I hope you see this one. It takes forever to write like this.

And I have to warn you...I did not take the time to edit it. It is raw and unfiltered. Please feel free to critique and criticize. I'm endeavoring to interpret a mystery...the mystery of iniquity. Not win friends or influence Bible scholars.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Sorry this took so long to answer...As soon as I found time, y'all got a little heated! New forum, new culture. Imagine a world where "mutual respect" does not mean "unilateral capitulation." It will take getting used to!

Warning...this argument sickened me for weeks. I had to settle that Hebrew Mythology got it wrong, and no one teaches this doctrine. I had to be comfortable with my discomfiture, and wary not to argue....what's ahead is not blasphemy, though it is a direct contradiction of everything the church has always taught.

With that in mind, remember please: I am a French teacher and no prophet...a friend and no enemy.

Ok. I agree, no argue. Maybe a little debate. And I'd never accuse you of blasphemy knowing your knowledge and handle on things biblical. Doesn't mean you're always right, thus a debate. Let's go....

You are assuming that "Lucifer", the one who bears the light, is satan. Everyone does.

Yes, I do think that Lucifer (no quotes) is Satan and is the serpent, nachash.

That would assume that Satan was the morning star...the star of the morning. Obviously I have real problems with that, given that Jesus is the Rose of Sharon, the bright and morning star. He is not the last satan...He is, however the last Adam.

Job 38:4-7
“Where were you
when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you possess understanding!
5 Who set its measurements—if you know—
or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its bases set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 when the morning stars sang in chorus,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

They are plural. "The morning stars sang in chorus." Now this is as God laid the foundation of the earth. The sons of God (angels) shouted for joy. The morning stars (all of them) sang.

Jesus is the "Bright Morning Star." The brightest of them all. BUT...but...but...this does
NOT mean that the others who sang with Him are equal or in any way the same as Him....except that they sang and they are morning stars.

Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!​

In the KJV, NKJV and others "morning star," which in Hebrew is literally the "star of the morning," Daystar, "light-bringer." And this is also translated Lucifer.

Back up a verse:

Isaiah 14:11-12a
Your pomp and magnificence have been brought down to Sheol,
Along with the music of your harps;
The maggots [which prey on the dead] are spread out under you [as a bed]
And worms are your covering [Babylonian rulers].’
12
“How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning [light-bringer], son of the dawn!​

The morning star was called pompous, cast to Sheol, with maggots and worms, fallen from heaven.

So "morning star" is not a phrase that defines Jesus, but rather that Jesus is THE Brightest Morning Star.

Now...All I know of the serpent, nachash, is this: He was more wilely than all the beasts of the field. To me that places him in the garden with all the beasts Adam named. In fact, Adam named Nachash "Nachash...", because he was so bright and shiny. But Adam, who had already been given dominion over all the beasts of the field, gave him the name. Nachash, before his debut in the garden, has no history...none. Jesus says he was a liar from the beginning and the father of all lies. This agrees with Genesis being actually the genesis.

It's called Genesis because that means beginning. But I'll ask again: beginning of what? My answer: man. (And I'll get to it below when you bring it up, but this does not require two creations....just time.)

So what's going on in Isaiah, and in the parallel passage in Ezekiel?

Well...to being with, several more verses:

13. You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God. I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mont of assembly...I will make myself like the most High.​

I don't see the serpent doing that...But I do see someone. Who is it that says, "I will be like God...?"

This confused me. I thought you were making a case that Satan was the serpent in the garden, created there as serpent (which wouldn't make sense). But where you go I don't think I read this right. Confirm?

And then he's brought down low...and what is the reaction when this happens. What do folks say?

16 "Is this the man who made the earth tremble...?
​

If it was an angel, why do those who gaze ask if this is the "man?" The Hebrew uses the word "ish", here, not "Adam", but even so, "ish" is not used for supernatural beings. We are all ishi and beni Adam.

Really? Is not Jesus called the Son of Man (ben-adam) (or one like the Son of Man)?

Now let me think. Of all creation, who was created perfect...

At this point in your sentence, I say hmmm. Are the angels sinful before the eye of God? Angels that sinned (in my eschatology) are cast down to the earth.

...as in the image and likeness of God Himself?

Now we have man, created perfect and then sinned.

Who never had to strive to be like God? Who was given command and rule, like God? Dominion and power? Who is destined for the throne?

Was satan ever destined for the throne?

No, Satan wasn't because he wasn't a man.

If satan fell and was cut down to earth...what's he doing among the sons of God in Job? What's he doing accusing the brethren day and night before the throne? Satan has no place in heaven...yet he holds great dominion and influence...how can this be?

What precludes him from a place in heaven with the sons of God, or more specifically the divine council (Ps. 82:1)

Ps 82:1 (NET)
God stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment.​

I think there are many in this council: rulers and judges (gods), including archangels, and even man. Satan is shown to be the "prince of the power of the air." He rules and judges: are any subject to him? are any unsaved? are any the children of the devil (e.g. 1 Jn 3:10)?

He certainly has a place to rule, and a reason to be before the throne, and certainly a reason to try for Job.

Here's a strange enigma. Why does proverbs say that one of the five things that the earth cannot abide is a "...servant, when he rules over a master...?"

The earth is cursed when that over which I have delegated rule rules over me. That is the reality of the fall, and the perfect one, perfect in all his ways, the cherub that covers the whole earth, was so, until iniquity was found in him.

Then he was expelled from the garden.

I don't think this explanation fits the whole of the set of verses shown, which just do not cover the teachings about man in scripture. Nor does it fit a devil created in the garden as a serpent, or possessing a serpent. No. It fits better a cherub, an angelic being, that thought God's throne was not too high to reach for -- and was punished for that sin. Man sinned and fell away; this cherub was execrated with no chance of redemption.

Except the Bible calls him the serpent from Genesis all the way to Revelation. The dragon is "the serpent of old..." Never an angel, never fighting to be restored...only seeking to usurp the reign that was never ever his.

Once the analogy of "dragon" is assigned, we are focused on his destruction, on his destination. We don't need to see the connection to his beginnings.

Because he was a liar "from the beginning."

I define "beginning" in Genesis the same way I define it in John and Proverbs. I like consistency. I see no reason to say "in the second beginning God..." I would probably, for clarity, say, "In God's second attempt He..."

Yes, the beginning of biblical man. In the garden. But I'm not considering a "second beginning," a second creation or a second attempt. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. One creation for all. But "genesis" means beginning...hmm...um...no, actually it doesn't. Our title comes from the Septuagint: it means Creation. In the creation we have the beginning of the creation, beginning of sun/moon/stars, beginning of life, beginning of man.

Let me say it this way: in the beginning when the sun was created, what was man doing at the time? Nothing, he hadn't been created yet. He hadn't had a beginning. Another way: When man began how old was the sun? Different beginnings.

So when Jesus says that Satan was a liar from the beginning we can use the biblical record to indicate when this was. Iniquity was found in him and at that time he was cast down. He wasn't cast down before he was cast down. So he wasn't cast down in his beginning, therefore the iniquity was not in him at his beginning (or he would have been cast down). I'm being obtuse, but you see my point, my viewpoint.

This is interesting. He lost mobility, and was consigned to the dust...It looks like he lost his spiritual body, and his only recourse and sustenance was flesh. Hell is a life without spirit...His is realm of the flesh, and the only way he can influence anything spiritual is to distract and obsess a spiritual being...Rick Joyner has him riding Christians around...We accuse the brethren, and we alone have the right to stand before God. His is the influence that impels us.

All living things have a spirit. Eternal punishment is a condition of spirit.

I see no evidence at all that the father of lies was ever perfect in all his ways.

The scripture says he was (if you believe that's him) until iniquity was found in him, then he was cast down.

Could we just look at creation for a second? I see only one created perfect in all his ways...Only one made in the image and likeness of The Perfect One. Only one. And unto that one was given the anointing, the mantel of authority, rule and majesty. Unto him alone was consigned the naming of things. It was not unto the serpent.

You are combining things that don't need to be combined. IF man and Lucifer were INITIALLY created perfect does not mean that both were given a mantle of authority.

No. I have the Bible in my understanding as complete...no chapters missing. No prequel. The Word was made Flesh, because there was nothing higher. God put perfection in us...because we were destined to be the Bride. It is not good for man to be alone: Love with no object was not love. He did not create all things to improve on his past mistakes...He created all things to love to the fullest measure, because He is Love, and His Word is the seed that produces fruit...but only through man is that fruit to come. In us, with us, for us, and through us so that all nature know love.

To be clear, I don't think the Bible is incomplete either. Nothing is missing. But this concept of completeness is the necessary things for man to know. For instance, from a definition of completeness: where is the history of angels? What are they? Who are they? How many are they? How many archangels? How many cherubim?

So, even though I may or may not believe in a tohu bohu between verse 1 and 2, IF there is something there it is of no consequence to man and the plan of redemption.

Where did satan trade?

But man traded.

Parallel to Isaiah...and they say, "Is this the man..."​

​

Covered the "man" part already. Trading? In the eschatology I speak from Satan took 1/3 of the angels with him in the fall. He traded something to get them to follow him.

Without two separate creations this does not work. I do not believe in a second creation...That is all.

I understand. I don't either. One creation. And I think that somewhere through the history of the angels iniquity was found in Lucifer and he was cast out.

Nothing points to the serpent in those verses...Everything points to a man. Jesus even called Peter satan... because the adversary only works by seducing and misleading the man. Of himself, the serpent never could do anything.

Peter was not called satan; the spirit trying to guide Peter's understanding was demonic.

Even in the garden, had Adam stepped on the serpent's head, the story would have come to an end. He had no higher power than the deception he practiced on Eve. And even now, as the last Adam has crushed his head, there is nothing satan can do but deceive. He has the full authority of those whose power he has usurped. It is never his...

Agreed. And these who he has authority over, who he is the father of, these he rules.

Satan said, "All these kingdoms I will give to you, for they are given to me..." by whom? What kings in the OT gave themselves over to Baal to be ruled by him? That is the nature of rebellion: It is planted deep in the heart of Adam.
Yes...A perfect description of Adam before he fell...Try to describe Adam better. How much better than perfecction is the image and likeness of God?
The serpent had no place but the garden...and in his deception, he lost that. Heaven was never creatquoed for him, but for Man to dwell with the Most High...as His spouse.

Remember, Satan is a liar and tries to deceive.

But Satan is a created being. Would you agree? Did God create something that was never good? Something that simply had no chance? Did God create something evil?

God created a serpent that was wily...and willful...and Man to be lord, who fell into deception.

But you didn't answer my questions above specifically. And this is the point of what started us down this path.

I'll get to your other post later. I hope you see this one. It takes forever to write like this.

I'm patient. Discussions with one like you are always welcome and very fruitful. I've learned much from you; I've had to strengthen other learnings because of you. Iron sharpens iron.

And I have to warn you...I did not take the time to edit it. It is raw and unfiltered. Please feel free to critique and criticize. I'm endeavoring to interpret a mystery...the mystery of iniquity. Not win friends or influence Bible scholars.

That's cool. And I won't hold you to mis-speaks if you want to correct anything.

Likewise, I don't know everything. And you know that I will write what I know and what I think I know. If I didn't know I wouldn't write it as if I did. Doesn't make me right: so teach away and even if I stand strong against it know that I will take it away and study it. I trust you and know you wouldn't believe anything you teach without reason.

Eventually you will give up and come to my side, right? right? right? ugh!

 

[now faith]

Sorry this took so long to answer...As soon as I found time, y'all got a little heated! New forum, new culture. Imagine a world where "mutual respect" does not mean "unilateral capitulation." It will take getting used to!

Warning...this argument sickened me for weeks. I had to settle that Hebrew Mythology got it wrong, and no one teaches this doctrine. I had to be comfortable with my discomfiture, and wary not to argue....what's ahead is not blasphemy, though it is a direct contradiction of everything the church has always taught.

With that in mind, remember please: I am a French teacher and no prophet...a friend and no enemy.

​

You are assuming that "Lucifer", the one who bears the light, is satan. Everyone does. That would assume that Satan was the morning star...the star of the morning. Obviously I have real problems with that, given that Jesus is the Rose of Sharon, the bright and morning star. He is not the last satan...He is, however the last Adam.

Now...All I know of the serpent, nachash, is this: He was more wilely than all the beasts of the field. To me that places him in the garden with all the beasts Adam named. In fact, Adam named Nachash "Nachash...", because he was so bright and shiny. But Adam, who had already been given dominion over all the beasts of the field, gave him the name. Nachash, before his debut in the garden, has no history...none. Jesus says he was a liar from the beginning and the father of all lies. This agrees with Genesis being actually the genesis.

So what's going on in Isaiah, and in the parallel passage in Ezekiel?

Well...to being with, several more verses:

13. You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God. I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mont of assembly...I will make myself like the most High.​

I don't see the serpent doing that...But I do see someone. Who is it that says, "I will be like God...?"

And then he's brought down low...and what is the reaction when this happens. What do folks say?

16 "Is this the man who made the earth tremble...?
​

If it was an angel, why do those who gaze ask if this is the "man?" The Hebrew uses the word "ish", here, not "Adam", but even so, "ish" is not used for supernatural beings. We are all ishi and beni Adam.

Now let me think. Of all creation, who was created perfect...as in the image and likeness of God Himself? Who never had to strive to be like God? Who was given command and rule, like God? Dominion and power? Who is destined for the throne?

Was satan ever destined for the throne?



If satan fell and was cut down to earth...what's he doing among the sons of God in Job? What's he doing accusing the brethren day and night before the throne? Satan has no place in heaven...yet he holds great dominion and influence...how can this be?

Here's a strange enigma. Why does proverbs say that one of the five things that the earth cannot abide is a "...servant, when he rules over a master...?"

The earth is cursed when that over which I have delegated rule rules over me. That is the reality of the fall, and the perfect one, perfect in all his ways, the cherub that covers the whole earth, was so, until iniquity was found in him.

Then he was expelled from the garden.

Except the Bible calls him the serpent from Genesis all the way to Revelation. The dragon is "the serpent of old..." Never an angel, never fighting to be restored...only seeking to usurp the reign that was never ever his.

Because he was a liar "from the beginning."

I define "beginning" in Genesis the same way I define it in John and Proverbs. I like consistency. I see no reason to say "in the second beginning God..." I would probably, for clarity, say, "In God's second attempt He..."

This is interesting. He lost mobility, and was consigned to the dust...It looks like he lost his spiritual body, and his only recourse and sustenance was flesh. Hell is a life without spirit...His is realm of the flesh, and the only way he can influence anything spiritual is to distract and obsess a spiritual being...Rick Joyner has him riding Christians around...We accuse the brethren, and we alone have the right to stand before God. His is the influence that impels us.

I see no evidence at all that the father of lies was ever perfect in all his ways.

​

Could we just look at creation for a second? I see only one created perfect in all his ways...Only one made in the image and likeness of The Perfect One. Only one. And unto that one was given the anointing, the mantel of authority, rule and majesty. Unto him alone was consigned the naming of things. It was not unto the serpent.

No. I have the Bible in my understanding as complete...no chapters missing. No prequel. The Word was made Flesh, because there was nothing higher. God put perfection in us...because we were destined to be the Bride. It is not good for man to be alone: Love with no object was not love. He did not create all things to improve on his past mistakes...He created all things to love to the fullest measure, because He is Love, and His Word is the seed that produces fruit...but only through man is that fruit to come. In us, with us, for us, and through us so that all nature know love.

Where did satan trade?

But man traded.

Parallel to Isaiah...and they say, "Is this the man..."​

Without two separate creations this does not work. I do not believe in a second creation...That is all.

Nothing points to the serpent in those verses...Everything points to a man. Jesus even called Peter satan... because the adversary only works by seducing and misleading the man. Of himself, the serpent never could do anything.

Even in the garden, had Adam stepped on the serpent's head, the story would have come to an end. He had no higher power than the deception he practiced on Eve. And even now, as the last Adam has crushed his head, there is nothing satan can do but deceive. He has the full authority of those whose power he has usurped. It is never his...

Satan said, "All these kingdoms I will give to you, for they are given to me..." by whom? What kings in the OT gave themselves over to Baal to be ruled by him? That is the nature of rebellion: It is planted deep in the heart of Adam.
Yes...A perfect description of Adam before he fell...Try to describe Adam better. How much better than perfecction is the image and likeness of God?
The serpent had no place but the garden...and in his deception, he lost that. Heaven was never creatquoed for him, but for Man to dwell with the Most High...as His spouse.
God created a serpent that was wily...and willful...and Man to be lord, who fell into deception.

I'll get to your other post later. I hope you see this one. It takes forever to write like this.

And I have to warn you...I did not take the time to edit it. It is raw and unfiltered. Please feel free to critique and criticize. I'm endeavoring to interpret a mystery...the mystery of iniquity. Not win friends or influence Bible scholars.

Isaiah: 14. 12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


Revelation: 22. 16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

If you read the King James you will find no conflict between these two passages.

Most of the verisions translated from corrupt text will saye Jesus and Lucifer are the morning star,it's nonsense.

When the King James refers to Satan jointly as a man,the context is satan behind the man.
Examplerince of Persia.

At that time the Prophesy was held back from Daniel, satan had a hold on the ruler of Persia,but after Babylon fell a new prince took authority and was kind to Isreal.

It is a deep subject and time does not allow for a study of these circumstances.

In summary : Adam is not Lucifer,Lucifer is mentioned very little due to literature and context.
Satan is the main name that Christ rebuked from Peter,satan or the devil was the cause for Peter's statement Peter was not Satan nor is man or Jesus.

Idioms in the Bible or phrases by different authors need to be understood by the Context and narrative of the author.
It also helps to use a less confusing translation.

 

[now faith]

Why do smile faces pop up when I did not put them there?

 

[now faith]

Quote a blessed man
Jesus is the "Bright Morning Star." The brightest of them all. BUT...but...but...this does
NOT mean that the others who sang with Him are equal or in any way the same as Him....except that they sang and they are morning stars.

Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!


No!
The King James does not state the Passage or reference Satan as the star Brite or star lite or anything such.
Let's try this again

Isaiah: 14. 12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Show me where Satan is the morning star or star of anything.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Quote a blessed man
Jesus is the "Bright Morning Star." The brightest of them all. BUT...but...but...this does
NOT mean that the others who sang with Him are equal or in any way the same as Him....except that they sang and they are morning stars.

Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!


No!
The King James does not state the Passage or reference Satan as the star Brite or star lite or anything such.
Let's try this again.

Isaiah: 14. 12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Show me where Satan is the morning star or star of anything.

Look at the original Hebrew -- or other translations other than the King James (or those that directly quoted the Latin Vulgate). The name Lucifer is not in the original. It is a "name" added that means "DayStar" or "light-bearer."

I accept this as a designated name for Satan prior to the fall. But quoting Isa 14:12 does nothing to diminish the fact that Satan was also called a morning star -- and nor does it do anything to unpluralize Job 38:7 or to take away the disparaging terms applied in Isaiah 14:11-12 (where other translations more word for word translate to "morning star," "daystar," or "light-bearer."

He was an angel of light until sin was found in him and he was cut down to the earth (fell to the earth; fall like lightening; etc.). He was execrated -- made worthless, made unredeemable, cursed.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Isaiah: 14. 12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


Revelation: 22. 16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

If you read the King James you will find no conflict between these two passages.

Come out from the King James and use other translations in parallel in your study.

Most of the verisions translated from corrupt text will saye Jesus and Lucifer are the morning star,it's nonsense.

Never knew you were KJV-only? That's a separate discussion.

In summary : Adam is not Lucifer,Lucifer is mentioned very little due to literature and context.
Satan is the main name that Christ rebuked from Peter,satan or the devil was the cause for Peter's statement Peter was not Satan nor is man or Jesus.

Idioms in the Bible or phrases by different authors need to be understood by the Context and narrative of the author.

No one claimed Adam to be Lucifer here. And Pete wasn't claiming Peter to be Satan, just that Jesus wielded that name at him.

It also helps to use a less confusing translation.

Truly. So put down the KJV, use it as one reference, and come to less confusing translations that know much more about Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew than they did in that translation.

Not that "Lucifer" is a wrong term there. It is an accepted name for Satan before the fall. But in Isa 14 the original Hebrew term is "morning star" or "light-bearer."

 

[hhodgson]

QUOTE="now faith, post: 69096515, member: 289707"]Why do smile faces pop up when I did not put them there?[/QUOTE]

---->

ABlessedMan​

Be Blessed to be a BLESSING

​

 

[de1929]

do they speak english well ?

 

[now faith]

Look at the original Hebrew -- or other translations other than the King James (or those that directly quoted the Latin Vulgate). The name Lucifer is not in the original. It is a "name" added that means "DayStar" or "light-bearer."

I accept this as a designated name for Satan prior to the fall. But quoting Isa 14:12 does nothing to diminish the fact that Satan was also called a morning star -- and nor does it do anything to unpluralize Job 38:7 or to take away the disparaging terms applied in Isaiah 14:11-12 (where other translations more word for word translate to "morning star," "daystar," or "light-bearer."

He was an angel of light until sin was found in him and he was cut down to the earth (fell to the earth; fall like lightening; etc.). He was execrated -- made worthless, made unredeemable, cursed.

Ok Bro,if we go to the sources that you are using we have our Lord and Satan being under the same name.
So how do we reconcile this?

We know the truth they are not the same,so which translation separates our Lord from the same name?

 

[now faith]

Isaiah: 14. 12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! KJV


Isaiah: 14. 12. How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! -NIV

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Ok Bro,if we go to the sources that you are using we have our Lord and Satan being under the same name.
So how do we reconcile this?

Well, first quit thinking of it as a name. It is a title.

7 when the morning stars sang in chorus,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:7​

There are more than one "morning stars." I have no biblical reason to justify it, but I believe this is more than 2. At the very least, it is two or more that are called "morning star." So, biblically, Jesus does not hold this title alone.

Second, it is NOT applied to Satan. It is applied to Lucifer. God saw it necessary to change his name (notice that God changes a lot of people's names?) Lucifer was (although Pete rejects this, I think) perfect in his ways; Satan is a horror. You know why I think that Lucifer was perfect in his ways? Well, God said so:

‘Thus says the Lord God:
“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
...
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Ezekiel 28:12b-13a;14-15​

To note. Lucifer was a morning star; Satan was not. Note:

“Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
...
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”
Ezekiel 28:17a, 19b​

We know the truth they are not the same,so which translation separates our Lord from the same name?

Yes. They are not the same. And it isn't a name.

God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods.
Psalm 82:1 (NKJV)

God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
Psalm 82:1 (ESV)​

To be complete, although I think you know this part. But scripture tells us there are no gods beside God Almighty (Isa 44:6). But Ps. 82:6 tells us that we are called gods. We are judges and rulers. Well, in heaven there is a divine council. And God takes His place in it.

Why? These are gods -- judges, rulers. Well is not God a Judge? Is He not a Ruler? (How dare we share these "names" with Jesus!)

This latter concept is a much larger topic. But think in terms of these gods being archangels. Michael. Gabriel.

Look again at this verse, different translation:

God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.
Psalm 82:1 (NASB)​

God judges in the midst of the rulers. What are they ruling? Again, look at Michael, Gabriel. What did they rule? Michael (the name means "Who is like God?" In Daniel, he is called a chief prince. Satan is the prince of the power of the air (Eph 2:2). There's that same name stuff again.

Well, I've rambled enough.

 

[now faith]

Not to go off topic,nor build a strawman but..

I find this odd the Fox is bringing a action show out on the 25th this month.

Title: Lucifer morning star in the trailer.
The plot go's with the devil retiring to a casino,and the demons are coming up to rebellion, He is threatened by what looks like a Angel to go back.
On of the main characters comments :When the Angel threatened him he replied try it if you think my father is upset now..
You can find this preview on you tube via FOX.

Kinda odd that this morning star topic is being debated with this show on the horizon.

The Angel has a name Amenadiel.
You will find this Angel being worshiped in the Kabalah, he is Lucifers brother.

I will not post the you tube you have to look yourself , it's showtime people time to put away debates.

Revelation: 22. 13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.



Isaiah: 14. 10. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11. Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

 

[now faith]

Well, first quit thinking of it as a name. It is a title.

7 when the morning stars sang in chorus,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:7​

There are more than one "morning stars." I have no biblical reason to justify it, but I believe this is more than 2. At the very least, it is two or more that are called "morning star." So, biblically, Jesus does not hold this title alone.

Second, it is NOT applied to Satan. It is applied to Lucifer. God saw it necessary to change his name (notice that God changes a lot of people's names?) Lucifer was (although Pete rejects this, I think) perfect in his ways; Satan is a horror. You know why I think that Lucifer was perfect in his ways? Well, God said so:

‘Thus says the Lord God:
“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
...
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Ezekiel 28:12b-13a;14-15​

To note. Lucifer was a morning star; Satan was not. Note:

“Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
...
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”
Ezekiel 28:17a, 19b​

Yes. They are not the same. And it isn't a name.

God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods.
Psalm 82:1 (NKJV)

God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
Psalm 82:1 (ESV)​

To be complete, although I think you know this part. But scripture tells us there are no gods beside God Almighty (Isa 44:6). But Ps. 82:6 tells us that we are called gods. We are judges and rulers. Well, in heaven there is a divine council. And God takes His place in it.

Why? These are gods -- judges, rulers. Well is not God a Judge? Is He not a Ruler? (How dare we share these "names" with Jesus!)

This latter concept is a much larger topic. But think in terms of these gods being archangels. Michael. Gabriel.

Look again at this verse, different translation:

God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.
Psalm 82:1 (NASB)​

God judges in the midst of the rulers. What are they ruling? Again, look at Michael, Gabriel. What did they rule? Michael (the name means "Who is like God?" In Daniel, he is called a chief prince. Satan is the prince of the power of the air (Eph 2:2). There's that same name stuff again.

Well, I've rambled enough.

The king James does not use the context as a deity, it refers to him as son of the morning.

God Bless I am withdrawing this thread has been a very long one.
Thank you my Brothers in Christ.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

The king James does not use the context as a deity, it refers to him as son of the morning.

Not sure what this means?

I've said somewhere in my posts that morning star does not necessarily refer to deity. So in Job 38:7 where the morning stars (plural) sang, they could not be deity.

Also, Isaiah 14:12 IN THE GREEK says morning star (or specifically light-bearer). KJV used the pre-fall name, Lucifer, in it's place to attempt to be clear who was being spoken of. You are not proving anything by using an English translation (and one that is proven to have errors due to the understanding of Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew at the time).

 

[now faith]

Why Greek for the Old Testament?

Isaiah 14:12(Hebrew Transliteral) "How you-fell from heavens howl you son of dawn you-were-hacked-down to the earth one defeating over nations."

Hebrew: הֵילֵ֣ל בֶּן־שָׁ֑חַר | hêlēl ben-šāḥar dawn star/ son of morning.
Source Hebrew Translated

 

[now faith]

Agree to disagree ?

Second star to the right and on till morning!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Consider the possibility that God permits and allows everything by default.
The only time we see Him is when He is intervening into the normal course of nature, decayed since the fall:


Rom 8: WNT
19. For all creation, gazing eagerly as if with outstretched neck, is waiting and longing to see the manifestation of the sons of God.
20. For the Creation fell into subjection to failure and unreality (not of its own choice, but by the will of Him who so subjected it).
21. Yet there was always the hope that at last the Creation itself would also be set free from the thraldom of decay so as to enjoy the liberty that will attend the glory of the children of God.(or “forced decay”)

So everything is allowed by default. Accidents, fate, chance all contribute to the events of this world. When God acts, it is not to allow or permit anything... it is to intervene against that which is occurring by course of nature.

Creation is currently subject to decay, corruption, ruin, and destruction. This is the reason why we have calamities, earthquakes, tsunamis, epidemics, riots, revolutions, and every other chaotic event that man suffers. God is not doing these things. They are the result of the “confused” and “corrupt” state of creation.
God is not giving permission or allowance to any of this. He set creation in motion in the beginning and it is tooling along according to the rules put in place at creation.

The vast majority of events that we see around us are merely the fallen/falling nature of creation “taking its course” within the bounds, rules, and laws that God put in place since creation. When God does act, it is to intervene against nature taking its depraved downward course toward total corruption. Normal life means that rain falls, fills a gully, overruns the dam, and floods a town. Hundreds of lives are lost but not because of something God did. These lives were lost because nature took its course. God is only seen in the intervention and we cannot always tell when He does this. It may happen a thousand times a day in our lives. We cannot always tell unless the intervention against nature happens before our eyes in the form of a "miracle."
But the idea of "allow" and "permit" are meaningless when you consider that He is "allowing" and "permitting" everything.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Agree to disagree ?

Second star to the right and on till morning!

I cannot believe you just quoted Peter Pan on that one, but respect, lol