God is Said to do that which He Merely Allowed or Permitted

Gxg (G²) · Dec 24, 2014

dkbwarrior said:
I had not heard the idea before that the genocide of the Canaanites may have been related to the purging of the Nephilim. I will look further into this...

Peace...

If you have any books on the matter of God in his conquest of Cannan and how he orchestrated it, I'd love to hear sometime

now faith · Dec 24, 2014

John: 1. 17. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John: 6. 45. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48. I am that bread of life. - Bible Offline

Gxg the New Testament confirms that the Angels of the Lord that were looked upon by men were not God.

I have great respect for your teaching,as well I am not well versed in Hebrew.

This is my opinion,the King James translators were some of the greatest scholars in history.

The Hebrew text had been remarkably preserved by God. At the time the translators were ready to begin their work, they had no less than ten printed editions of the Hebrew Old Testament available to them. There was the Complutensian Polyglot of Cardinal Ximenes published in 1517 which contained the Hebrew text (the fifth complete O. T.) as well as the Latin Vulgate and the Greek Septuagint translations of it. They had four editions by Daniel Bomberg (1516-17, 1516-17, 1521, 1525-28). The last of these was popular with the Reformers. The standard edition was considered to be that of Jacob ben Chayim-the Second Rabbinic Bible. Besides these, there was the Antwerp Polyglot (1572) with the Hebrew text of Arius Montanus and the Latin interlinear translation of Pagninus.

The Greek text was readily available in the Complutensian Polyglot (1514), the five editions of Erasmus (1516-1535), the four editions of Robert Stephanus (1546-1551), and the ten editions of Theodore Beza (1560-1598). They also consulted the editions of Aldus (1518), Colinaeus (1534), and Plantin (1572).

There can be no doubt, therefore, that the King James Version translators went back to the primary sources. Thus they could ask the reader, If truth be (is) to be tried by these tongues (the originals) then whence should a translation be made, but out of them. They recognized the fact that the final authorities in this work were the Hebrew and the Greek texts. Source Steven Hough.

The KJV Bible is translated from the Hebrew/Greek/Chaldean

manuscript, the Textus Receptus, which has been

mathematically* proven to be the Word of God, in so far as

possible. The ultimate proof in all godly matters is faith.

Bible numerologists have found that no word or even a letter

can be added or subtracted from the Textus Receptus without

destroying a God-inspired underlying mathematical pattern,

called numeric features. Bible numerics proves that all the

formerly disputed scripture verses found in the KJV do indeed

belong in the Bible.
Source: cathedral of praise

So my Brother I am not debating translation, but pointing out my reference for post is single minded.

Gxg (G²) · Dec 24, 2014

now faith said:
Gxg the New Testament confirms that the Angels of the Lord that were looked upon by men were not God.

Shalom Nowfaith

I can definitely understand you feel that way on the matter and I don't disregard that whatsoever. Nevertheless, I do have to ask that you understand where I'm coming from when I say that I have yet to see where it says anywhere in the NT that the Angel of the Lrod looked upon by men were not God..... that's not what the full scriptures say when it comes to how even God was referenced as the one giving scripture and yet it says it was angels.

When God is One of Us

And this is a basic in not only Jewish culture - but within the CHurch councils when it comes to the concept of theophanies or Christophanies - the reality that Christ was the one whom men saw in the OT whenever it came to the Angel of the Lord and God since He alone is the only one whom men have seen (and He IS God) ...meaning it had to be Jesus they were seeing in place of God the Father.

We are told that men saw the living God:

Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome." 29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." (NIV)

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? t

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z6_tCQHhNU

Christology 101 Lesson 4 Christophanies

The Preeminence of Christ ~ Part 8 ~ Christophanies ~ The OT Appearances of Jesus | Faith Bible Ministries Blog

Finding Jesus in the Old Testament

As said before:

Gxg (G²);66821012 said:
2 Samuel 24:16 15 So the Lord sent a plague upon Israel from the morning till the appointed time. From Dan to Beersheba seventy thousand men of the people died. 16 And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, It is enough; now restrain your hand. And the angel of the Lord was by the threshing floor of Araunah[c] the Jebusite.

7 Then David spoke to the Lord when he saw the angel who was striking the people, and said, Surely I have sinned, and I have done wickedly; but these sheep, what have they done? Let Your hand, I pray, be against me and against my fathers house.

1 Chronicles 21:18
Therefore, the angel of the Lord commanded Gad to say to David that David should go and erect an altar to the Lord on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.

1 Chronicles 21:30
But David could not go before it to inquire of God, for he was afraid of the sword of the angel of the Lord.

1 Chronicles 21:11-13 New King James Version (NKJV)

11 So Gad came to David and said to him, Thus says the Lord: Choose for yourself, 12 either three[a] years of famine, or three months to be defeated by your foes with the sword of your enemies overtaking you, or else for three days the sword of the Lordthe plague in the land, with the angel of the Lord destroying throughout all the territory of Israel. Now consider what answer I should take back to Him who sent me. 3 And David said to Gad, I am in great distress. Please let me fall into the hand of the Lord, for His mercies are very great; but do not let me fall into the hand of man.

David chose the option of a plague since he knew it would be delivered by the Angel of the Lord - seeing it as a means of falling into God's Hands ....not the Devils, since the enemy was never referenced at any point in scripture as the Angel of the Lord. This goes back to the concept of understanding who the Angel of the Lord is - with him consistently referenced in the Jewish worldview as an agent of God and others saying it was God Himself (Genesis 16:7, Genesis 22:11, Exodus 3:2, Numbers 22:22, Judges 6:21, Judges 2:4, Judges 13:16, 1 Kings 19:7, 2 Kings 1:3, Psalm 35:5, Psalm 34:7, Zechariah 3:1, Acts 7:30, Acts 8:26, etc.). He's also referenced directly in the account of the prophet Baalam when it came to God's judgment:

Numbers 22:21-34 New King James Version (NKJV)

Balaam, the Donkey, and the Angel
22 Then Gods anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the Lord took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him. 23 Now the donkey saw the Angel of the Lord standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand, and the donkey turned aside out of the way and went into the field. So Balaam struck the donkey to turn her back onto the road. 24 Then the Angel of the Lord stood in a narrow path between the vineyards, with a wall on this side and a wall on that side. 25 And when the donkey saw the Angel of the Lord, she pushed herself against the wall and crushed Balaams foot against the wall; so he struck her again. 26 Then the Angel of the Lord went further, and stood in a narrow place where there was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left. 27 And when the donkey saw the Angel of the Lord, she lay down under Balaam; so Balaams anger was aroused, and he struck the donkey with his staff.

28 Then the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?

....31 Then the Lord opened Balaams eyes, and he saw the Angel of the Lord standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand; and he bowed his head and fell flat on his face. 32 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out to stand against you, because your way is perverse before Me. 33 The donkey saw Me and turned aside from Me these three times. If she had not turned aside from Me, surely I would also have killed you by now, and let her live.

And of course, in the time of Hezekiah when he was being attacked by Assyria, the same Angel of the Lord came and wiped out enemy nations:

2 Kings 19:35
[ Sennacheribs Defeat and Death ] And it came to pass on a certain night that the angel of the Lord went out, and killed in the camp of the Assyrians one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when people arose early in the morning, there were the corpsesall dead.

Worship was NEVER allowed to be given to angels alone - and that was said in SEVERAL places.

Colossians 2:18
Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind.

Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, Let all Gods angels worship him.

Revelation 22:7-9

7 Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll. 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, Dont do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!

And yet when it comes to the scriptures, they declare that the Angel of the Lord was distinctly different and worshipped - WHY? Because He was not a mere angel, but God Himself.

If one disagrees, then one would need to show where it was ever appropriate for an Angel of the Lord (if not God) to recieve WORSHIP from the ones He came to:

Genesis 22:11
But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, Abraham! Abraham! Here I am, he replied. Here I am, he replied.12 Do not lay a hand on the boy, he said. Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.

Judges 2
[ The Angel of the Lord at Bokim ] The angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land I swore to give to your ancestors. I said, I will never break my covenant with you, and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars. Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this?

Judges 6:11-14
11 The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, The Lord is with you, mighty warrior.

13 Pardon me, my lord, Gideon replied, but if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt? But now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian. 14 The Lord turned to him and said, Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midians hand. Am I not sending you?

We already have it in Acts 7:38 and Acts 7:53 and later in Hebrews 2:2 that appear to indicate that what the Israelites were encountering, even face to face, in the Old Testament was an angel.

Moreover, Genesis 12:7-9 mentions Abram clearly seeing the Lord - and Genesis 18:1-33 references a similar case. The Lord appears and shares a meal with Abraham and incorporeal spirits do not do that. We also see (again), Genesis 22:11-18 - an interaction with the Angel of the Lord, as He speaks both *as* God as well on Gods behalf. I think this isnt the Father, but the Son. Two more verses down this list identifies the Angel of the Lord as God.... it is more than just an angel. A

We also have Genesis 32:22-30 where Jacob physically wrestled with God here....and it was noted "He wrestled with God and WON" - and l on the Angel of the Lord, Hos 12:3-4 indicates the following plainly:

Hosea 12:3-4 New International Version (NIV)

3 In the womb he grasped his brothers heel;
as a man he struggled with God.
4 He struggled with the angel and overcame him;
he wept and begged for his favor.
He found him at Bethel
and talked with him there

Many passages have noted that no one has ever seen God the Father - but they have seen Jesus clearly. This is noted in , passages like John 1:18 and 1 Timothy 1:17 noting how God the Father is invisible and yet Jesus is the very image of God - and in every account where it was said in the OT that men saw God face to face, it was Christ since no man can see God and live.

It's not a problem going to some of the WOF teachers I grew up with and referencing them if necessary since the concept of Theophanies and Christophanies is a concept the Early Church long taught.

And with Christophanies, there were many things in the OT that were symbols of Christ. The rock that followed them in the wilderness - as I Corinthians 10 said - was noted to be Christ.

I have great respect for your teaching,as well I am not well versed in Hebrew.

Click to expand...

It really wouldn't take a lot of study in the Hebrew (to be truthful) in order to examine exactly what Hebrew Sages/Scholars from OT eras actually said on the matter - although the Hebrew does help a lot. And yes, I respect you as well

This is my opinion,the King James translators were some of the greatest scholars in history.
....

There can be no doubt, therefore, that the King James Version translators went back to the primary sources. Thus they could ask the reader, If truth be (is) to be tried by these tongues (the originals) then whence should a translation be made, but out of them. They recognized the fact that the final authorities in this work were the Hebrew and the Greek texts. Source Steven Hough.
\

Click to expand...

I've seen the work before that you referenced, from the following:

The King James Version is Perfect

[/QUOTE]

That said, there are a number of other works that have actually done a very good job pointing out where the KJV was never the original version of the Scriptures or the best. Several WOF teachers have noted the same before when it comes to an over-reliance on it and not realizing where it was skewed

And on the actual dynamics of what languages were made available, Greek was the dominant one while Aramaic was another major one. People often place in our times way too much focus on the Hebrew than the people of antiquity - and for more reference, discussion happened on the issue elsewhere in Hellenistic Judaism And Our Bible and A Few Facts Why the Talmud (oral law) is a hoax

So my Brother I am not debating translation, but pointing out my reference for post is single minded.
__________________

Click to expand...

Wasn't really thinking you were debating translation at all.

now faith · Dec 24, 2014

Well my Brother you have given me a lot to study!

This is a very interesting topic when you consider Paul's teaching :

Colossians: 2. 18. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, - Bible Offline
Thank You,in a month or so I may respond lol

now faith · Dec 24, 2014

Gxg, here is a good example of our discussion:

Daniel: 3. 23. And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. 24. Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellers, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 25. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. - Bible Offline

Gxg (G²) · Dec 24, 2014

now faith said:
Well my Brother you have given me a lot to study!

This is a very interesting topic when you consider Paul's teaching :

Colossians: 2. 18. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, - Bible Offline
Thank You,in a month or so I may respond lol

For me, what has been helpful is considering that men may not have ever seen God the Father (who is invisible - and to be truthful, too far beyond our comprehension since he's bigger than the universe itself....and that's pretty dang big ) - but men HAVE seen Jesus, who is literally the Image of the Invisible GOd....hence, why Christophanies (appearances of Christ in the OT) were discussed within the Body of Christ for a long time and others knew that they were not allowed to worship angels - and yet Christ (as "The Angel of the Lord") could be worshiped.

If it helps, you may wish to compare Exodus 13:21 ("'And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians and they shall follow them and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen, And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen' ..By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night" ) with Exodus 14:19 ("Then the angel of God, who had been traveling in front of Israel's army, withdrew and went behind them. The pillar of cloud also moved from in front and stood behind them"), as the writers saw the two as the same. One can also consider some of the following texts on where the Angel of the Lord was considered as distinct:

Genesis 48:16 English Standard Version (ESV)

16 the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys;
and in them let my name be carried on, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac;
and let them grow into a multitude[a] in the midst of the earth.”

Exodus 23:20-23 English Standard Version (ESV)

Conquest of Canaan Promised
20 “Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. 21 Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.

22 “But if you carefully obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.

23 “When my angel goes before you and brings you to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, and I blot them out, 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars. 25 “So you shall serve the Lord your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.

Isaiah 63:9 New King James Version (NKJV)

9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the Angel of His Presence saved them;
In His love and in His pity He redeemed them;
And He bore them and carried them
All the days of old.

And for further reference on the Jewish history of understanding who the Angel of the Lord is, I'd highly recommend the following:

Parashat Vayera - The Angel of the LORD - Hebrew 4 Christians

An Angel You Ought to Know - Jews for Jesus

Similarities Between the Angel of the Lord and Y'shua - Jews for Jesus

The Angel of the Lord - Messianic Jewish Alliance of Australia

The ?Heavenly? and ?Earthly? Yahweh: A Trinitarian Interpretation of Genesis 19:24 [Part 2]

The Glory of the Angel of the Lord | Sid Roth - It's Supernatural

Others to consider, if I may offer, would be works such as " The Jewish Roots of Christological Monotheism: Papers from the St. Andrews
Conference on the Historical Origins of the Worship of Jesus" and works by people such as Dr. Michael Heisner (referenced earlier) in what he has pointed out with great study on how Jews interpreted God - more in Old Testament Godhead Language and The Naked Bible » Trinitarian Jewish Thinking Before Jesus and The Divine Council and Jewish Binitarianism - Dr. Michael Heiser)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz8J4DTIkEg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUkhWBKCuXc

Much of the issue itself (when understanding things historically) goes back to seeing what the early Church had to address when it came to how Jewish believers (in the first century before the councils) had battles as it concerns the reality of the Two Powers in Heaven idea that helped many Jews come to faith in Christ and develop a Christological Monotheism since they could understand that the rabbis always taught that God had a lesser power to Him (regent) who was God as well and they co-ruled - with Christ being "The King of Angels"/Lord of Hosts. Many are not aware of the relationships between rabbinic Judaism, Merkabah mysticism, and early Christianity - as it was the case that "Two powers in heaven" was a very early category of heresy and one of the basic categories by which the rabbis perceived the new phenomenon of Christianity...yet they did not understand the reality of what Christianity advocated on the role of the Messiah nor did they know the history of what the rabbis before them had already said in agreement with the Messiah being Divine. One Jewish scholar who did an amazing job on the issue is Daniel Boyarin, who wrote Sparks of the Logos: Essays in Rabbinic Hermeneutics and Two Powers in Heaven; Or the Making of Heresy as well as the book entitled Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity (as well as The Gospel of the Memra: Jewish Binitarianism and the Prologue to John and the work "The Jewish Gospels" where he noted at multiple points where the concept of the Messiah was always rooted in Jewish thought and echoed by what the rabbis said....and for Jews, the two powers are one and a person does not worship one without the other and even Second Temple literature is replete with forms of bitheism, including the philonic logos and the Ezekiel traditions of an Angel of God in the image of a man appearing on the throne. - that Angel of God being representative of the Divine Messiah who was to come).

The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. (John 14:9-14)

Colossians 1:15
[ The Supremacy of the Son of God ] The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Hebrews 1:1-4
God’s Final Word: His Son
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Blessings and thanks for always giving food for thought - as it's a blessing being sharpened

now faith · Dec 24, 2014

John: 8. 56. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58. Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - Bible Offline

The divinity of Christ is indeed referenced in literal terms in Old and New Testament.

ABlessedAnomaly · Dec 25, 2014

Gxg (G²);66823007 said:
And this is a basic in not only Jewish culture - but within the CHurch councils when it comes to the concept of theophanies or Christophanies - the reality that Christ was the one whom men saw in the OT whenever it came to the Angel of the Lord and God since He alone is the only one whom men have seen (and He IS God) ...meaning it had to be Jesus they were seeing in place of God the Father.

So this also extends to verses like Exodus 14:19 -- Angel of God? Correct?

ABlessedAnomaly · Dec 25, 2014

Gxg (G²);66811189 said:
I think that it would be beneficial to have more examples within the scriptures for whichever point one is seeking to make on the issue. For me, when seeing where you're coming from, it all goes back directly to what happened in the Exodus account with the 10 plagues of Egypt. The Lord sent the full force of His might upon the world when disobediance occurred - and it was at his command rather than his allowing for anything to occur.

The plagues certainly are an example where it becomes quite a twist of grammar to try to make the actions passive. They are too specific to be so. But then again, these are in Judgment.

But even as the Lord was bringing the 10 plagues on Egypt, those things were not arising outside of Him. Including the Darkness Plague itself and the others involving the Angel of Death who was brought to slay the firstborn.

This certainly seems so. In the case of the Angel of Death it can be seen as an act of Judgment, but because the Israelites had to place the blood on their doorpost to avoid the judgment, it seems that the judgment is "blind," which certainly doesn't fit an understanding the God won't "touch" the innocent.

Other dynamics can go in regards to acts of nature (i.e. volcanoes, storms, earthquakes, etc.) which the Lord made and were interpreted in terms of "darkness" rather than happiness....but it never seemed to be EVIL itself as a whole which the Lord made. Evil calamities that are used for judgement are one thing - and in that sense, I do agree with victoryword that the proper context is one where executing judgment is the focus since the things God did people often claimed to be "evil" and yet God corrected them by saying it was He who was in control.

Again, one can find harmony in the view that if God is punishing man, it is in Judgment -- and under the New Covenant is only against the unsaved.

As with storms and the like, you seem to be saying that if God controlled the storm then it was judgment. If so, I agree. Normal storms that damage are simply a part of the earth's nature. They aren't wielded by either God or devil to hurt those affected.

But I'm back to "who created the ability for storms in nature?" That would be God. And they have a purpose. But God doesn't wield them in Judgment.

However, to say the Lord made all forms of evil (i.e murder, rape, etc.) is not true since those things came with the Fall of man.

Well, I'm still of the view that God created all things. Satan is a created being and can't create from nothing. Man and devil can dement nature and create hideous results, but the ability to do so and the path along which the change must take, were allowed by God (and in fact must be controlled by God -- like a hedge -- so that we or the devil do not wipe out the whole human race). In other words, the killing of another human being (murder) while vile, is certainly something that is possible because of a perfect creation that allows a perfect free will. (And certainly, the Law calls for the death of certain criminals, does it not? How could the people in Moses' day carry out the Law if God did not allow a path for killing/judgment?)

All things exist for our perfect free will to exist. Certain things simply do not exist (i.e. my example of a path from brick to bread). And it is God who controls what does and does not exist and what is and is not possible. Otherwise, if the devil controlled some of the possibilities, even to the point of creation, then we make the devil of the same stature as God Himself.

The final note is that I am Word/Faith, and I see this, as explained, doing no violence to the goodness of God. He gave us free will. He placed Blessing and the curse before us, and He told us to choose. He even told us what we should choose, although He won't force it. He does not wield anything bad against His children and He prompts us to so the same. Follow in His will. Do good. Love.

God is good!

ABlessedAnomaly · Dec 26, 2014

Gxg (G²);66811189 said:
I think that it would be beneficial to have more examples within the scriptures for whichever point one is seeking to make on the issue.

You asked for other examples. Someone please offer explanations for this story:

Gen 32:1, 24-32(NET)
So Jacob went on his way and the angels of God met him.

24 So Jacob was left alone. Then a man wrestled with him until daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not defeat Jacob, he struck the socket of his hip so the socket of Jacob's hip was dislocated while he wrestled with him. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for the dawn is breaking." "I will not let you go," Jacob replied, "unless you bless me." 27 The man asked him, "What is your name?" He answered, "Jacob." 28 "No longer will your name be Jacob," the man told him, "but Israel, because you have fought with God and with men and have prevailed." 29 Then Jacob asked, "Please tell me your name." "Why do you ask my name?" the man replied. Then he blessed Jacob there. 30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, explaining, "Certainly I have seen God face to face and have survived." 31 The sun rose over him as he crossed over Penuel, but he was limping because of his hip. 32 That is why to this day the Israelites do not eat the sinew which is attached to the socket of the hip, because he struck the socket of Jacob's hip near the attached sinew.

It is generally agreed that Jacob wrestled the Lord, Jesus Christ. Is this not true? With this being true, please read the story carefully.

Gxg (G²) · Dec 26, 2014

ABlessedMan said:
So this also extends to verses like Exodus 14:19 -- Angel of God? Correct?

Shalom, ABM

Yes, regarding your question, this would also extend to the verse you had in mind. In the event it was missed, I had said in #108 that it makes sense when comparing Exodus 14:19 with Exodus 13:21 in how God is described as the pillar/going before the Israelites.

ABlessedMan said:
You asked for other examples. Someone please offer explanations for this story:

Gen 32:1, 24-32(NET)
So Jacob went on his way and the angels of God met him.

24 So Jacob was left alone. Then a man wrestled with him until daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not defeat Jacob, he struck the socket of his hip so the socket of Jacob's hip was dislocated while he wrestled with him. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for the dawn is breaking." "I will not let you go," Jacob replied, "unless you bless me." 27 The man asked him, "What is your name?" He answered, "Jacob." 28 "No longer will your name be Jacob," the man told him, "but Israel, because you have fought with God and with men and have prevailed." 29 Then Jacob asked, "Please tell me your name." "Why do you ask my name?" the man replied. Then he blessed Jacob there. 30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, explaining, "Certainly I have seen God face to face and have survived." 31 The sun rose over him as he crossed over Penuel, but he was limping because of his hip. 32 That is why to this day the Israelites do not eat the sinew which is attached to the socket of the hip, because he struck the socket of Jacob's hip near the attached sinew.

It is generally agreed that Jacob wrestled the Lord, Jesus Christ. Is this not true? With this being true, please read the story carefully.

Indeed, I fully agree and have said earlier (back in #108) that it was Christ himself whom Jacob had wrestled with - with Jacob even stating elsewhere that the angel had redeemed him. Genesis 31:11-13 notes the following:

Genesis 31:11-13 New King James Version (NKJV)

11 Then the Angel of God spoke to me in a dream, saying, ‘Jacob.’ And I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And He said, ‘Lift your eyes now and see, all the rams which leap on the flocks are streaked, speckled, and gray-spotted; for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and where you made a vow to Me. Now arise, get out of this land, and return to the land of your family.’”

And when Jacob blessed the sons of Joseph, he again referenced this same angel:

Genesis 48:16
The Angel who has redeemed me from all evil, Bless the lads; Let my name be named upon them, And the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; And let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.”

And as the prophets later spoke of Jacob when they were speaking to his descendants:

Hosea 12:3-6

3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb,
And in his strength he struggled with God.[a]
4 Yes, he struggled with the Angel and prevailed;
He wept, and sought favor from Him.
He found Him in Bethel,
And there He spoke to us—
5 That is, the Lord God of hosts.
The Lord is His memorable name.
6 So you, by the help of your God, return;
Observe mercy and justice,
And wait on your God continually.

The Angel of God/Angel of the Lord was Christ - and there are many other references besides this. Of course, what also should be considered is that the Angel of the Lord was also one who brought judgment into the world and did many acts of destruction - or threatened them on a number of occassions (1 Chronicles 21:12, 2 Kings 19:35, Isaiah 37:36 and especially Numbers 22:22-28 with Balaam when the Angel of the Lord noted that Balaam had angered him for disobeying his instructions and he was about to kill the prophet had his donkey not saved the man's life - later telling Baalam what He commanded him to do in order to honor Him the Lord)

Gxg (G²) · Dec 26, 2014

ABlessedMan said:
The plagues certainly are an example where it becomes quite a twist of grammar to try to make the actions passive. They are too specific to be so. But then again, these are in Judgment.

It really doesn't make sense, IMHO, to claim the plagues in the case of the Exodus account (when reading Exodus 3-9 ) are somehow passive since it was quite forceful what the Lord had done.

Anytime there was judgment on others (including times of disciplining Israel when they turned to idolatry), there was a focus on him sending:

Leviticus 26:25
And I will bring the sword on you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands.

Exodus 15:23-27
23 When they came to Marah, they could not drink its water because it was bitter. (That is why the place is called Marah.[f]) 24 So the people grumbled against Moses, saying, “What are we to drink?”

25 Then Moses cried out to the Lord, and the Lord showed him a piece of wood. He threw it into the water, and the water became fit to drink.

There the Lord issued a ruling and instruction for them and put them to the test. 26 He said, “If you listen carefully to the Lord your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the Lord, who heals you.”

Deuteronomy 28:59
58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Ezekiel 5:17
5 “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her. 6 Yet in her wickedness she has rebelled against my laws and decrees more than the nations and countries around her. She has rejected my laws and has not followed my decrees.

7 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: You have been more unruly than the nations around you and have not followed my decrees or kept my laws. You have not even[a] conformed to the standards of the nations around you.

8 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself am against you, Jerusalem, and I will inflict punishment on you in the sight of the nations. 9 Because of all your detestable idols, I will do to you what I have never done before and will never do again. 10 Therefore in your midst parents will eat their children, and children will eat their parents. I will inflict punishment on you and will scatter all your survivors to the winds. 11 Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your vile images and detestable practices, I myself will shave you; I will not look on you with pity or spare you. 12 A third of your people will die of the plague or perish by famine inside you; a third will fall by the sword outside your walls; and a third I will scatter to the winds and pursue with drawn sword.

13 “Then my anger will cease and my wrath against them will subside, and I will be avenged. And when I have spent my wrath on them, they will know that I the Lord have spoken in my zeal.

14 “I will make you a ruin and a reproach among the nations around you, in the sight of all who pass by. 15 You will be a reproach and a taunt, a warning and an object of horror to the nations around you when I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath and with stinging rebuke. I the Lord have spoken. 16 When I shoot at you with my deadly and destructive arrows of famine, I will shoot to destroy you. I will bring more and more famine upon you and cut off your supply of food.

I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will leave you childless. Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I the Lord have spoken.”

Amos 4:10
"I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares the LORD.

Exodus 32:33-35
The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. "But go now, lead the people where I told you Behold, My angel shall go before you; nevertheless in the day when I punish, I will punish them for their sin." Then the LORD smote the people, because of what they did with the calf which Aaron had made.

Numbers 11:31-34
Now there went forth a wind from the LORD and it brought quail from the sea, and let them fall beside the camp, about a day's journey on this side and a day's journey on the other side, all around the camp and about two cubits deep on the surface of the ground. The people spent all day and all night and all the next day, and gathered the quail (he who gathered least gathered ten homers) and they spread them out for themselves all around the camp. While the meat was still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the anger of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD struck the people with a very severe plague

This certainly seems so. In the case of the Angel of Death it can be seen as an act of Judgment, but because the Israelites had to place the blood on their doorpost to avoid the judgment, it seems that the judgment is "blind," which certainly doesn't fit an understanding the God won't "touch" the innocent.

Good points, as it concerns the judgment being blind and not selective simply because Israelites were Israelites.

Again, one can find harmony in the view that if God is punishing man, it is in Judgment -- and under the New Covenant is only against the unsaved.

As with storms and the like, you seem to be saying that if God controlled the storm then it was judgment. If so, I agree. Normal storms that damage are simply a part of the earth's nature. They aren't wielded by either God or devil to hurt those affected.

But I'm back to "who created the ability for storms in nature?" That would be God. And they have a purpose. But God doesn't wield them in Judgment.

Actually, what I am saying is that not every act of God controlling storms or the weather is automatically an act of Judgment. It is simply God sustaining nature as He does since it cannot exist without Him energizing it - just as it is with gravity.

God made gravity and sustains it - but if someone jumps out a plane and gravity does its work, that doesn't mean God wanted the person harmed. He is simply sustaining nature. And with storms, some acts were done in judgment on the world - but many were simply nature displaying the Glory of GOD.....and us needing to respect that. You don't go near a volcano, see lava, and then if harmed by it say that GOD was judging you.

But in the OT, God did that on a number of occassions. In our time, we cannot always be certain if/when a storm was sent by God for judgment since we don't have a Scripture saying "And GOD sent the Tsunami in Indonesia because the people sinned" like it was when we had all the facts in hindsight from older scriptural accounts. We know of God's grace in our time and his judgment on the Earth to come when Christ returns..

Some of this was actually brought up earlier when I shared the following with Troy:

Gxg (G²);66817816 said:
God himself noted that HE was the one responsible for the great event.

Genesis 6: 5-8
The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.....11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

Genesis 7:7-4
7 The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”

This was not a demonic force that did so - but the Lord himself who warned that He would send the Flood to wipe out the evil men were doing...regardless of whether men called the act "evil" since it was justice.

God - not the Devil - is the one who controls the weather, as he made the system. And within Judaism, it is noted that God alone is the one who brings rain. That's a basic fact within Jewish culture.

One cannot understand the scriptures as the early Jewish people saw them without actually dealing with what the early Hebrew sages said on the matter, both in the times of Christ and before.

Jeremiah 5:24
'They do not say in their heart, "Let us now fear the LORD our God, Who gives rain in its season, Both the autumn rain and the spring rain, Who keeps for us The appointed weeks of the harvest."

Psalms 68:9
You shed abroad a plentiful rain, O God; You confirmed Your inheritance when it was parched.

Jeremiah 10:13
When He utters His voice, there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, And He causes the clouds to ascend from the end of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain, And brings out the wind from His storehouses.

\

When it comes to understanding the way that the world works, others have a view of CLASSICAL Theism that says that God causes all things to occur---including those things that are natural diasters. I remember when I was younger when a tornado occurred and one of the family was quick to say, "See, God's the one BEHIND THAT!!!"

Of course, there was a heated debate on the issue....with others thinking that its possible for God to create something without having to guide all aspects of it when it occurs naturally---as if He's behind every Tsunami, Hurricane, Drought, Monsoon, Blizzard, Landslide and all other destructive acts in nature that harm others.

Indeed, we realize according to Psalm 19 and Psalm 104 amongst other scriptures that God is intimately involved in nature.

God is Sovereign over the weather (Exodus 9:29; Psalm 135:6-7; Jeremiah 10:13).

God controls the skies and the rain (Psalm 77:16-19).

God controls the wind (Mark 4:35-41; Jeremiah 51:16).

God upholds and sustains the universe (Hebrews 1:3).

God has power over the clouds (Job 37:11-12, 16).

God has power over lightning and Satan (Psalm 18:14).

God has power over all nature (Job 26).

Nevertheless, as many may trip over others seeing all natural diasters as something they can control simply by prayer, others don't take into account the other side where others often feel completely out of control with it..as if its all a matter of God orchestrating it and us having to sit back/chill instead of realizing that many things are events our prayers/actions cannot affect. Some things like Hurricanes and Tornados can be a form of God expressing His attributes via nature (as shared earlier when talking on God's artwork in nature in #81 ).

Again, I'm reminded of how many see every natural disaster as a sign of Divine Retribution... thinking every tornado or storm is a matter of the wrath of God and God choosing to be at work in the world. Honestly, some things simply happen---yet God can still use them to speak and work through us to handle them so that others are protected. Biblically, this seems to have occurred in /Luke 13:21 . For there Pilate had apparently placed to death some Galileans as they were offering worship sacrifices in Jerusalem. No explanation of the reason was given. THey had perhaps trangressed a Roman Law prompting the respons from the notoriously hard-hearted Pilate. Since their theology attributed individual suffering to individual sin, the Jews interpreted the fate of the Galileans as God's punishment of their guilt. This view of God's activity is known as Retribution Theology......and with that in mind, one sees how Jesus transfered the meaning of these incidents to the spiritual sphere. He does not deal with a Retribution Theory (similar to what occured with many concerning Hurricane Katrina and many saying it was of the Lord as JUDGEMENT). He instead points to the Lord and urgent demand of the present--that unless you repent, you will perish.
__________________

But that's besides the point.

God was never exonerated from the flood - or from Sodom and Gomorrah or from when Christ comes back in Revelation 20-22 on the White Horse breathing judgment on the nations.

Gxg (G²) · Dec 26, 2014

ABlessedMan said:
Well, I'm still of the view that God created all things. Satan is a created being and can't create from nothing. Man and devil can dement nature and create hideous results, but the ability to do so and the path along which the change must take, were allowed by God (and in fact must be controlled by God -- like a hedge -- so that we or the devil do not wipe out the whole human race). In other words, the killing of another human being (murder) while vile, is certainly something that is possible because of a perfect creation that allows a perfect free will. (And certainly, the Law calls for the death of certain criminals, does it not? How could the people in Moses' day carry out the Law if God did not allow a path for killing/judgment?)

All things exist for our perfect free will to exist. Certain things simply do not exist (i.e. my example of a path from brick to bread). And it is God who controls what does and does not exist and what is and is not possible. Otherwise, if the devil controlled some of the possibilities, even to the point of creation, then we make the devil of the same stature as God Himself.

The final note is that I am Word/Faith, and I see this, as explained, doing no violence to the goodness of God. He gave us free will. He placed Blessing and the curse before us, and He told us to choose. He even told us what we should choose, although He won't force it. He does not wield anything bad against His children and He prompts us to so the same. Follow in His will. Do good. Love.

God is good!

I can definitely understand where you're coming from - God is the ultimate creator.

I would say, on the same token, that the ability to pervert things in the creation is a real reality when it comes to men and nature - but on the same token, God also gave man the ability to create out of what exists and make new things. Something I've seen many WOF teachers note before when it comes to our words having power to create and shape reality.

And on the issue, with creating as being made in His image, I do think it's noteworthy that the enemy never had that ability - but he was ....and STILL....is a musician who created music. That is something I firmly believe when it comes to seeing how the Lord designed him as a worship/guardian cherub who glorified God. Other WOF teachers such as G.Craig Lewis noted this on a number of occassions with his series called "Truth Behind Hip Hop"

Having the ability to create comes in many differing levels and ONLY God can make something from nothong with all of existence. But on the same token, he gave us creative abilities - part of the process of having dominion as Genesis 1-2.

ABlessedAnomaly · Dec 26, 2014

Gxg (G²);66826843 said:
I can definitely understand where you're coming from - God is the ultimate creator.

I would say, on the same token, that the ability to pervert things in the creation is a real reality when it comes to men and nature - but on the same token, God also gave man the ability to create out of what exists and make new things. Something I've seen many WOF teachers note before when it comes to our words having power to create and shape reality.

And on the issue, with creating as being made in His image, I do think it's noteworthy that the enemy never had that ability - but he was ....and STILL....is a musician who created music. That is something I firmly believe when it comes to seeing how the Lord designed him as a worship/guardian cherub who glorified God. Other WOF teachers such as G.Craig Lewis noted this on a number of occassions with his series called "Truth Behind Hip Hop"

The Truth Behind Hip Hop

Exodus Into Egypt - Part 1 - (Truth Behind Hip Hop 2)

Exodus Into Egypt - Part 2 - (Truth Behind Hip Hop 2)

Having the ability to create comes in many differing levels and ONLY God can make something from nothong with all of existence. But on the same token, he gave us creative abilities - part of the process of having dominion as Genesis 1-2.

I think you are saying what I have been saying, especially in what I bolded above in your quote. I take minor issue with the language that Lucifer created music. Did he make a note that didn't exist before? Was he the first to think that a string will vibrate and make that vibration produce sound? That would be creation. Making a song that didn't exist before with notes and vibrations that did exist is certainly in the realm of what man and Lucifer can do. Make new things from existing things: rearrange, glue together, cut apart (which can certainly be seen as a perversion). But the first and final result has no new items that make up the things. No bread from a brick.

dkbwarrior · Dec 26, 2014

ABlessedMan said:
The plagues certainly are an example where it becomes quite a twist of grammar to try to make the actions passive.

Agreed, but then, as I said before:

dkbwarrior said:
To me, it doesn't really matter if the Passive and Active voice argument holds any merit, because the same outcome can be deduced by study of comparable scriptures, like Davids numbering of Israel, the death of the firstborn in Egypt, and the crucifixion of Jesus Himself. There are multiple scriptural examples where one passage of scripture says that God did ___________, yet another passage of scripture says the enemy satan did it. We can conclude from the greater context of scripture the exact same doctrine of evil being committed by satan but permitted by God through forbearance, without having to prove Passive or Active voice in the original Hebrew, of which there is no one on this forum that I am aware of adequately qualified in the language to argue, and even if there was, there is disagreement on this issue by Hebrew scholars themselves.

That is to say, I think there are enough scriptures that use the passive voice in the Old Testament to get one researching the subject (which is a good start), but it is not used consistently enough to close the argument with this, only to open it. I have been in enough of these debates to realize that there are multiple instances where that argument cannot hold merit from the text, (that is where the text indicates an active rather than passive voice for an occurrence of judgement.) But this is not the issue for me. The issue comes from verses like this one:

1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
-II Samuel 24:1

And this one:

1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
-I Chronicles 21:1

This is the clearest, but by far not the only example of the Bible specifically saying in one spot that God did something and then in another spot saying that satan did it.

One can only come to one of two conclusions from these verses.

1) The Bible is annacurate and contradicts itself; or

2) The language used to describe God being responsible for evil/judgement/tempting men does not mean what we think it means.

If you accept number 2, then you have to reinterpret the meaning of God being responsible for such acts across the entire spectrum of scripture. In other words, SUCH DESCRIPTIONS must be idiomatic language use or allegorical expression used by the Holy Spirit to imply that God is ultimately responsible for ALL THINGS (even evil) BECAUSE THE POSSIBILITY WAS ALLOWED FROM THE BEGINNING OF CREATION, but NOT because GOD CHOSE TO DO THAT PARTICULAR ACT AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME.

To be even clearer, this would mean that all such acts described in the scripture are passive insofar as God goes, regardless of the 'voice' used in scripture to describe it. This isn't so far fetched as you might think at first glance. Nearly all new revelations have come from redefining word usages in the Bible. Think of how the entire faith movement was born out of redefining what the word 'faith' actually means. Faith went from meaning 'trusting in a higher power' (which God cannot do-there is no higher power) to 'believing that the words you speak will come to pass' (which God is fully capable of-and does regularly). Is this redefinition of words justified? You bet it is, because words change meaning over time (I do not doubt for a minute that satan himself is not encouraging this) and the scripture specifically tells us how to avoid misinterpretation:

20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
-II Peter 2:20-21

Or, in other words, to put it in DanSpeak, "No word, phrase, passage or story in the Bible can be interpreted by modern, evoluted language definitions. Rather, every word, phrase, passage or story in the Bible must be interpreted in light of their contextual use by the Holy Spirit in the greater context of the scriptures which were imparted to holy men of God down through the ages".

You have to start with the nature of God; and that nature is revealed most accurately in the life of Jesus. I agree with the following posting that Gxg made:

Gxg (G²);66820577 said:
Christ is ultimately the end goal of all the Scriptures and all things have to point back to how He saw things - with Him often noting the original intent behind how things were and how they were to be seen in relation to him.

Although it seems he draws a slightly different end result from that affirmation than I do. Reading through the gospels, I do not see a God (as manifested in Christ) that creates or uses evil/death/destruction in an active sense anywhere.

Once you determine that the nature of God does not allow for these things, you can interpret what actions are passive and what actions are active by measuring them against that yardstick. God is perfect and holy in all His ways; and the originator and administrator of good in all its forms, including the application and enforcement of the blessing. Satan is the originator and administrator of evil in all its forms, included the application and enforcement of the curse itself.

Peace...

Gxg (G²) · Dec 26, 2014

dkbwarrior said:
I think there are enough scriptures that use the passive voice in the Old Testament to get one researching the subject (which is a good start), but it is not used consistently enough to close the argument with this, only to open it. I have been in enough of these debates to realize that there are multiple instances where that argument cannot hold merit from the text, (that is where the text indicates an active rather than passive voice for an occurrence of judgement.) But this is not the issue for me. The issue comes from verses like this one:

1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
-II Samuel 24:1

And this one:

1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
-I Chronicles 21:1

This is the clearest, but by far not the only example of the Bible specifically saying in one spot that God did something and then in another spot saying that satan did it.

One can only come to one of two conclusions from these verses.

1) The Bible is annacurate and contradicts itself; or

2) The language used to describe God being responsible for evil/judgement/tempting men does not mean what we think it means.

If you accept number 2, then you have to reinterpret the meaning of God being responsible for such acts across the entire spectrum of scripture. In other words, SUCH DESCRIPTIONS must be idiomatic language use or allegorical expression used by the Holy Spirit to imply that God is ultimately responsible for ALL THINGS (even evil) BECAUSE THE POSSIBILITY WAS ALLOWED FROM THE BEGINNING OF CREATION, but NOT because GOD CHOSE TO DO THAT PARTICULAR ACT AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME.

If I may say,

I think one crucial factor that we often forget is that scripture has a context - and was written with an audience having an original understanding which can never be dismissed. And that goes for the 3rd option that rarely gets considered when we do not choose to understand the text as it was understood:

Let the IMMEDIATE context of a scripture and suceeding interpretations of it impact our understanding of it

None of the Jewish believers in the 1st century - knowing far more than us and being much closer to things as we are - never assumed things were simply allegorical when it came to the text being taken as literal....as they couldn't be inconsistent - like saying it was literal when God came in the burning Bush but allegorical when it came to God sending the Plagues on the Egyptians. They were consistent knowing the Character of God as the Judge - not just someone who was Merciful or Good....and they also saw His JUDGEMENTS as a sign of his Goodness as well.

dkbwarrior said:
I don't believe God was responsible for causing the flood, nor the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, nor any of the acts of death and destruction that are described in the Bible. These are simple explanations to me. Keep in mind that both of these events are in the book of Genesis, part of the Torah, authored by Moses; the earliest texts of the Bible, with the possible exception of Job. The idea of progressive revelation reveals a limited knowledge of God (and no knowledge of satan) starting with Moses and progressing through the generations as God speaks to the fathers by the prophets and the canon is expanded.

Something to consider is how can one say that things were progressive when it was noted that GOD HIMSELF was the one who gave the Mosaic Law and instructed the people on how to act. It wasn't just a limited knowledge of God - but God himself revealing to the people what to do....and His prescriptions included things which may go against some of our sensibilities today.

Some things do not have to be re-interpreted, especially if we're not from the culture that was closet to understanding what was said. It'd be akin to saying that murder is wrong and therefore ALL acts of others dying are condemned by God because we already have a pre-set view we want God to fit into.....but we ignore what God already said when he noted in Genesis 9:6-7 that the consequence of murder was that the life of the murderer was to be taken ("Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man") and throughout the OT Mosaic Law when it came to God commanding others be killed for breaking his law since under the law of Moses, the death penalty was required in cases of premeditated murder (Exodus 21:12-14,22-23; Leviticus 24:17; Numbers 35:16-21):

Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death" (Ex 21:12 ...

It was always the case that Moses (through God's commands) noted that a person could be put to death for striking or cursing his parents (Exodus 21:15,17; Leviticus 20:9) - with a stubborn, disobedient, rebellious son who would not submit to parents or civil authorities required to be stoned to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) and with rebellion, we already have it in Joshua 7 where God had Achan killed for keeping items that were not his to keep and cursing the camp....with the Israelites stoning him and his family.

And on other places where God commanded in the active form for something to be destroyed if it broke HIS Commandments:

Exodus 31:14
“‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

Exodus 35:2
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Numbers 15
The Sabbath-Breaker Put to Death

32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord commanded Moses.

God's Own system of Mosaic Code required for others to actively be put to death for dishonoring Him - and as the early Hebrews understood, it was always honoring the character of the Lord to do so.

I can see no way outside of acknowledging how often God commanded judgement on others disobeying Him with death as the penalty - and that never being something that Satan was given credit for. God's Holiness is nothing to play with -

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

And to note, there were other things people were killed for as well:

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Some of this goes into the territory of asking "What does it mean for God to declare judgment?" or "Is God allowed to declare judgment upon others?" if he is truly God....

Gxg (G²) · Dec 26, 2014

dkbwarrior said:
1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
-II Samuel 24:1

And this one:

1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
-I Chronicles 21:1

This is the clearest, but by far not the only example of the Bible specifically saying in one spot that God did something and then in another spot saying that satan did it.

One can only come to one of two conclusions from these verses.

1) The Bible is annacurate and contradicts itself; or

2) The language used to describe God being responsible for evil/judgement/tempting men does not mean what we think it means.

Personally

Seeing that what we often understand as "contradiction" is really a dynamic of "truth in tension" and not realizing where we can often have false scenarios where we create an "either or" dynamic that the early audience never held to, I have never seen those verses in any kind of contradiction when seeing the entire council of the Word - and it used to stump me until I came to consider the following realities:

I Chronicles 21:1 notes that Satan incited David to take a census. But can Satan force people to do wrong? Of course not. For Satan only tempted David with the idea...and yet David decided to act on the temptation. The census David did was not against God's Law - but his reason for doing so (pride) was wrong in God's sight. Even Joab, who was quite ruthless and evil himself, knew that the decision was wrong. It can easily be seen that God provided a way out in Joab's counsel, but David's curiosity was spurred on by his arrogance and his faith in His own strength.
Something to also consider is that God does not cause others to sin - and thus, it's rather easy to answer "Did God cause David to sin?" - for God does not cause people to sin, but he DOES allow sinners to reveal their sinfulness ...the sinfulness of their hearts by their actions. God presented the opportunity to David in order to deal with a disastrous national tendency and he wanted thise desire to show itself. Although I Chronicles 21:1 says that Satan incited David to do the action, the Hebrew writers do not always distinguish between primary and secondary causes. Thus, if God allowed Satan to tempt David, to them it was as if God did it.
When reading the ENTIRE text of I Chronicles 21, we have to see fully what was said. God gave David three choices. Each was a form of punishment and God told the people they could expect if they disobeyed his laws (disease - Deuteronomy 28:20-22; famine - Deuteronomy 28:23-24; war - Deuteronomy 28:25-26). For David, he wisely chose the form of punishment that came most directly from God since he knew how brutal and harsh men could be in war....but he also knew God's great mercy.

I like how another noted the issue to be when saying the following (for a brief excerpt):

..a dog can be described as brown. In his later years, though, he could turn grey. So the statement "My brown dog is grey" is not a contradictory one. You see the "at the same time" phrase is important. Further, suppose when the dog was young he became jealous of another animal. Then, the phrase "My brown dog is green with envy" is not contradictory because the statement doesn't use color in the same way. Now, let's examine the passages in question. 1 Chronicles 21:1 states that, "Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel." Notice the idea behind this passage is the temptation of David. Satan was actively involved in David being moved to have a census. Further in the chapter, David admits this is a sin when he declares "I have sinned greatly, in that I have done this thing.(vs. 8)" So the context of the passage plainly demonstrates that the census was an act against God. In 2 Samuel 24:1, though, we read this, "Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel and it incited David against them to say, 'Go number Israel and Judah.' " Notice the emphasis in this sentence is the anger of God. Though linguistically the sentences are very similar, we must understand the context and what the writers' intents were as they penned these accounts. There would be no contradiction if BOTH statements are true ones.

We know that God will not tempt anyone(James 1:13). In fact He can keep us from temptation. We are taught to pray for such in Matthew 6:13. In fact, 1 Cor. 10:13 says, "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, that you may be able to endure it." The statement that God doesn't allow some types of temptations (those which you aren't able to resist) shows that He is in control of what chances for sin you may have. In other words, God will place a barrier between Satan and the believer and only allow him certain access. Also implied in this is the idea that Satan and his minions do seek to make the believer fall. So, taking what we know to be true about the nature of God, we draw the conclusion that God wouldn't have tempted David to sin. However, the statement is not a contradiction. Remember, we agreed that in order for a contradiction to occur the words must mean the same thing in the same way. The Jewish line of reasoning always saw God as the ultimate cause of all actions, either positive or negative, because of his overseeing power. This is the reason God speaks of "creating evil" in Isaiah 45. It's much like the president of a corporation claiming that he sold 45 million units last year. He didn't do it physically, but his programs and ideas allowed it to happen.....In our instance, we have God allowing the devil the opportunity to tempt David. The king was becoming prideful, as Joab warns later by asking David " Why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?"
"

I appreciated the dynamic of seeing where the Lord was ultimately given credit for all that occurred when it came to his testing David - who had already been in sin LONG before the Census.

This is really no different than what occurred with Pharoah - as “God hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (Exodus 7:3, Exodus 7:13; Exodus 9:12; Exodus 10:1), but it was not that God directly forced Pharaoh to reject His willl since God hardened his heart by providing the circumstances and the opportunity for Pharaoh to reject His will.

For David to be in sin and God allowing the scenario to occur is also consistent with where Scripture already shows God testing others - such as with King Hezekiah when he allowed the Babylonian Envoys (BEFORE Babylon was great) to come and sought to test Hezekiah (Isaiah 39:1 and 2 Kings 20:11-13 ):

2 Chronicles 32:31
But when envoys were sent by the rulers of Babylon to ask him about the miraculous sign that had occurred in the land, God left him to test him and to know everything that was in his heart.
In Context

And as it concerns the situation with David and the Plague itself, the largest factor that cannot be avoided (IMHO) is who was noted to be DIRECTLY in charge of the plague in both cases (II Samuel and I Chronicles) - and that was God.

Concerning what has been said in the WOF movement, I cannot ignore what Charles Capps noted directly when it came to his series on angels - as s Charles Capp said in his book on Angels/ series on Angels/Judgment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2HqW9ud0A0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjGvBPr0w5c

He noted the dynamic of not provoking the Angelic Messenger that God sent to help His people - as the Angel has divine Authority and acted in the name of God himself.

And with I Chronicles, the way that David saw the Angel of the Lord being the one connected to the Lord (as it was the Angel destroying), there's no logical way to claim the Angel of the Lord was never seen as godly/good or (as other texts show) a representation of Christ himself:

2 Samuel 24:16 15 So the Lord sent a plague upon Israel from the morning till the appointed time. From Dan to Beersheba seventy thousand men of the people died. 16 And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, “It is enough; now restrain your hand.” And the angel of the Lord was by the threshing floor of Araunah[c] the Jebusite.

7 Then David spoke to the Lord when he saw the angel who was striking the people, and said, “Surely I have sinned, and I have done wickedly; but these sheep, what have they done? Let Your hand, I pray, be against me and against my father’s house.

1 Chronicles 21:18
Therefore, the angel of the Lord commanded Gad to say to David that David should go and erect an altar to the Lord on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.

1 Chronicles 21:30
But David could not go before it to inquire of God, for he was afraid of the sword of the angel of the Lord.

1 Chronicles 21:11-13 New King James Version (NKJV)

11 So Gad came to David and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Choose for yourself, 12 either three[a] years of famine, or three months to be defeated by your foes with the sword of your enemies overtaking you, or else for three days the sword of the Lord—the plague in the land, with the angel of the Lord destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.’ Now consider what answer I should take back to Him who sent me.” 3 And David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Please let me fall into the hand of the Lord, for His mercies are very great; but do not let me fall into the hand of man.”

As said before, David chose the option of a plague since he knew it would be delivered by the Angel of the Lord - seeing it as a means of falling into God's Hands ....not the Devils, since the enemy was never referenced at any point in scripture as the Angel of the Lord. This goes back to the concept of understanding who the Angel of the Lord is - with him consistently referenced in the Jewish worldview as an agent of God and others saying it was God Himself (Genesis 16:7, Genesis 22:11, Exodus 3:2, Numbers 22:22, Judges 6:21, Judges 2:4, Judges 13:16, 1 Kings 19:7, 2 Kings 1:3, Psalm 35:5, Psalm 34:7, Zechariah 3:1, Acts 7:30, Acts 8:26, etc.)...and also referenced directly in the account of the prophet Baalam when it came to God's judgment:

Numbers 22:21-34 New King James Version (NKJV)

Balaam, the Donkey, and the Angel
22 Then God’s anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the Lord took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him. 23 Now the donkey saw the Angel of the Lord standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand, and the donkey turned aside out of the way and went into the field. So Balaam struck the donkey to turn her back onto the road. 24 Then the Angel of the Lord stood in a narrow path between the vineyards, with a wall on this side and a wall on that side. 25 And when the donkey saw the Angel of the Lord, she pushed herself against the wall and crushed Balaam’s foot against the wall; so he struck her again. 26 Then the Angel of the Lord went further, and stood in a narrow place where there was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left......

28 Then the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?”

29 And Balaam said to the donkey, “Because you have abused me. I wish there were a sword in my hand, for now I would kill you!”

30 So the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey on which you have ridden, ever since I became yours, to this day? Was I ever disposed to do this to you?”

And he said, “No.”

31 Then the Lord opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the Angel of the Lord standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand; and he bowed his head and fell flat on his face. 32 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out to stand against you, because your way is perverse before Me. 33 The donkey saw Me and turned aside from Me these three times. If she had not turned aside from Me, surely I would also have killed you by now, and let her live.”

ABlessedAnomaly · Dec 26, 2014

dkbwarrior said:
The issue comes from verses like this one:

1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
-II Samuel 24:1

And this one:

1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
-I Chronicles 21:1

This is the clearest, but by far not the only example of the Bible specifically saying in one spot that God did something and then in another spot saying that satan did it.

I'd say not the clearest if we look at the Hebrew. I've bolded the verbs in question above, which are the actions toward David in either verse.

Both are סוּת (cuwth) and translate to mean "persuade, move, stir up, entice, provoke."

In both of these verses this word in is the Hiphil stem, meaning it is causative, something has happened, is happening or going to happen. It is also in the Imperfect aspect, meaning that it is in process and is incomplete. Perfect aspect would be a fact; Imperfect aspect implies more movement toward something. It is certainly possible that God's (and Satan's) actions are permissive. It is possible that BOTH are getting David to move.

BTW, there are a number of other seeming contradictions between these two chapters, as I'm sure you're aware.

now faith · Dec 26, 2014

Gxg (G²);66826825 said:
It really doesn't make sense, IMHO, to claim the plagues in the case of the Exodus account (when reading Exodus 3-9 ) are somehow passive since it was quite forceful what the Lord had done.

Anytime there was judgment on others (including times of disciplining Israel when they turned to idolatry), there was a focus on him sending:

Leviticus 26:25
And I will bring the sword on you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands.

Exodus 15:23-27&
23 When they came to Marah, they could not drink its water because it was bitter. (That is why the place is called Marah.[f]) 24 So the people grumbled against Moses, saying, What are we to drink?

25 Then Moses cried out to the Lord, and the Lord showed him a piece of wood. He threw it into the water, and the water became fit to drink.

There the Lord issued a ruling and instruction for them and put them to the test. 26 He said, If you listen carefully to the Lord your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the Lord, who heals you.

Deuteronomy 28:59
58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome namethe Lord your God 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Ezekiel 5:17
5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her. 6 Yet in her wickedness she has rebelled against my laws and decrees more than the nations and countries around her. She has rejected my laws and has not followed my decrees.

7 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: You have been more unruly than the nations around you and have not followed my decrees or kept my laws. You have not even[a] conformed to the standards of the nations around you.

8 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself am against you, Jerusalem, and I will inflict punishment on you in the sight of the nations. 9 Because of all your detestable idols, I will do to you what I have never done before and will never do again. 10 Therefore in your midst parents will eat their children, and children will eat their parents. I will inflict punishment on you and will scatter all your survivors to the winds. 11 Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your vile images and detestable practices, I myself will shave you; I will not look on you with pity or spare you. 12 A third of your people will die of the plague or perish by famine inside you; a third will fall by the sword outside your walls; and a third I will scatter to the winds and pursue with drawn sword.

13 Then my anger will cease and my wrath against them will subside, and I will be avenged. And when I have spent my wrath on them, they will know that I the Lord have spoken in my zeal.

14 I will make you a ruin and a reproach among the nations around you, in the sight of all who pass by. 15 You will be a reproach and a taunt, a warning and an object of horror to the nations around you when I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath and with stinging rebuke. I the Lord have spoken. 16 When I shoot at you with my deadly and destructive arrows of famine, I will shoot to destroy you. I will bring more and more famine upon you and cut off your supply of food.

I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will leave you childless. Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I the Lord have spoken.

Amos 4:10
"I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares the LORD.

Exodus 32:33-35
The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. "But go now, lead the people where I told you Behold, My angel shall go before you; nevertheless in the day when I punish, I will punish them for their sin." Then the LORD smote the people, because of what they did with the calf which Aaron had made.

Numbers 11:31-34
Now there went forth a wind from the LORD and it brought quail from the sea, and let them fall beside the camp, about a day's journey on this side and a day's journey on the other side, all around the camp and about two cubits deep on the surface of the ground. The people spent all day and all night and all the next day, and gathered the quail (he who gathered least gathered ten homers) and they spread them out for themselves all around the camp. While the meat was still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the anger of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD struck the people with a very severe plague

Good points, as it concerns the judgment being blind and not selective simply because Israelites were Israelites.

Actually, what I am saying is that not every act of God controlling storms or the weather is automatically an act of Judgment. It is simply God sustaining nature as He does since it cannot exist without Him energizing it - just as it is with gravity.

God made gravity and sustains it - but if someone jumps out a plane and gravity does its work, that doesn't mean God wanted the person harmed. He is simply sustaining nature. And with storms, some acts were done in judgment on the world - but many were simply nature displaying the Glory of GOD.....and us needing to respect that. You don't go near a volcano, see lava, and then if harmed by it say that GOD was judging you.

But in the OT, God did that on a number of occassions. In our time, we cannot always be certain if/when a storm was sent by God for judgment since we don't have a Scripture saying "And GOD sent the Tsunami in Indonesia because the people sinned" like it was when we had all the facts in hindsight from older scriptural accounts. We know of God's grace in our time and his judgment on the Earth to come when Christ returns..

Some of this was actually brought up earlier when I shared the following with Troy:

On control of the weather:would Christ create a storm to rebuke it?
No doubt on 2 occasions Christ had dominion over storms,rebuking one and walking on the water in another.
Why would he create them then turn and quite them.

Could Satan have sent them?

ABlessedAnomaly · Dec 26, 2014

now faith said:
On control of the weather:would Christ create a storm to rebuke it?
No doubt on 2 occasions Christ had dominion over storms,rebuking one and walking on the water in another.
Why would he create them then turn and quite them.

Hmm. You decide:

23 Some traveled on the sea in ships,
and carried cargo over the vast waters.
24 They witnessed the acts of the Lord,
his amazing feats on the deep water.
25 He gave the order for a windstorm,
and it stirred up the waves of the sea.
26 They reached up to the sky,
then dropped into the depths.
The sailors strength left them because the danger was so great.
27 They swayed and staggered like a drunk,
and all their skill proved ineffective.
28 They cried out to the Lord in their distress;
he delivered them from their troubles.
29 He calmed the storm,
and the waves grew silent.
30 The sailors rejoiced because the waves grew quiet,
and he led them to the harbor they desired.
31 Let them give thanks to the Lord for his loyal love,
and for the amazing things he has done for people!

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