God is Said to do that which He Merely Allowed or Permitted

[Gxg (G²)]

Gxg[G2]
Amazing post!
Bless God for your anointing!

It was Fred Price way back that influenced the way I study God's Word today.
At the beginning of service you would here Evidence!

I knew who was teaching and would stop what I was doing and listen.
He would run out of time but still quote :we walk by faith not by sight!

I am a fan of Fred JR.as well,his teaching is spot on.

Thank You for your post.

Fredrick Price is someone I'll always be thankful for in the Body of Christ - and the same goes for his son and the work he has done with others in the Faith Movement like G.Craig Lewis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJFmSrO5pHM

Fredrick Price has done a good job setting the stage for the future - and yes, I LOVE how every week he would stop and note that "We walk by Faith and Not BY site!" - it is a blessing. I will always be thankful for being able to grow up learning from people like the Prices - and their boldness to always examine what the Scriptures say...

Thanks for the encouragement as well

 

[Truthfrees]

Hi GXG,
I know what's been about ABM from both sides.

You're a supporter of ABM, I'm a supporter of wof.

The 2 opinions differ.

I'll ask the MJs if I've done any rule breaking and make sure I don't do it again. Thanks for the heads up, but I'll have to check it out with the MJs because it's their forum.

Copeland's name is no where found in the Midas Touch, so you're speaking conjecture here to include his name.

I say the individuals Hagin was speaking about are people who twisted Copeland's teachings, not Copeland himself.

You have no proof about your claims against Copeland.

Are you debating in the wof forum my brother against a wof founding teacher like Copeland?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hi GXG,
I know what's been about ABM from both sides.

Hi Truth.

As I already said, it really does nothing claiming things about ABM when others have long since disagreed - including those who have disagreed with him on many issues (myself included). Whatever issues you have with him are your own - but it's not really my focus. You came here within the last two years - and thus, you really have no way of knowing fully who ABM is or what he has done outside of the forum.

You're a supporter of ABM, I'm a supporter of wof. The 2 opinions differ.

As I said before, speaking without evidence does not really do much in giving verification since I have already disagreed with ABM just as I have agreed with him and victoryword - as far back as 2007. He as well as others are a part of the WOF movement and I myself, growing up in it, relate well to him just as I do with victoryword. Thus, trying to reduce things to "You're just a supporter of ABM" isn't really accurate and would be no more fitting than ABM saying "You're a supporter of Truth, I'm a supporter of WOF" the moment I agreed with you on something that he disagrees on.

Respectfully, You seeing yourself as a supporter of WOF does not really change or address where others agreeing with WOF are not simply for disagreeing with you - and if you disagree, that's the end of it it. You disagree.

I will continue to be thankful for others in the Faith Movement such as Hagin, Lester Sumrall, T.L Osborn, Fredrick Price (as well as Fredrick Price Jr.) and others AND where they contributed to the Body of Christ.

I'll ask the MJs if I've done any rule breaking and make sure I don't do it again. Thanks for the heads up, but I'll have to check it out with the MJs because it's their forum.

I saw where you asked recently - as seen in #42. It would be beneficial to actually give evidence of what postings were brought up since you simply said your postings were brought up....but you did not show the ones in reference that were teaching. You don't have to ask the MJs in that forum, although you can. It has, of course, already been addressed before and this was noted to you directly earlier - as seen in [EP Active] MJ Emergency Protocol and Icons and the last few years on CF ....or Non-Messianic Posters and MJ (Messianic Jews) Only Threads. Other places are:

• The authority of Rabbinic Judaism
  
• Are Messianics/Jews4Jesus just evangelicals with yarmulkes?
  
• Identity Chrisis: Slander
  
• When your Torah observance falls short

And as it stands, you're already TALKING to a Messianic since I am Messianic - and have been part of ALL of those discussions where we clarified our own SOP in the forum. And we already covered directly where those who are both Messianic and involved with another camp have to state such in their SIGNATURE. I was Messianic in ICON long before I was Oriental Orthodox in Icon - and others there (Daughter of Ararat in example) are in the same camp and know that. Others who have spoken on the matter are ContraMundum, or Shimshon when it comes to Jewish believers having background in Eastern Christianity but still focusing on their Jewish heritage. I myself am of Jewish background - and Thus, IMHO, you need to respect what other Jewish Messianics have already said on the issue instead of acting like nothing has been said plainly or others have not already pointed you out to where things were hashed out so you'll be aware of how to do things in the future

And as others in the MJ Forum have long been gracious with you, the bottom line point is that you owe it others to give that same graciousness to others here. I don't see where it was ever allowed to call other WOF members on this forum NOT WOF simply because of disagreements - in the same way other Messianics cannot call other Messianics "non-Messianic" or "fake Messianic" when disagreements occur. Calling others "pseudo WOF" is something that I could easily see other WOF members having reason to say "That doesn't belong in the forum."

Copeland's name is no where found in the Midas Touch
so you're speaking conjecture here to include his name.

As other WOFers already noted, Copeland was at the conference given by Hagin when Hagin shared to them where they were in the extreme - with their teachings fitting what he noted in the book. And I am aware of your disagreement with it, as ABM and you already discussed the matter in places such as #30. Thus again, I'm not inclined to agree with you when others throughout the Faith Movement (including Fredrick Price, Jr.) were aware of the matter and have spoken on what to avoid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1x7Q5nJq1s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jJh-wGpsp0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK6Dy9CQ36Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sI1aw8Yfno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQAPVL4l8GM

Even Dollar did so in his series Grace Based Prosperity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNI9i6G2yME

More was shared on the forum in Giving to Get

I say the individuals Hagin was speaking about are people who twisted Copeland's teachings, not Copeland himself.

I know you've said elsewhere " It's an excellent book, but one thing a friend pointed out to me was the last chapters describing errors are ALL twisted versions of what Copeland and the others teach. If that's how you feel on the matter, then cool. All one would need to do is give DIRECT quotes showing where Copeland in his teaching agreed fully with the Midas Touch since others have long pointed out that some of Copeland's teachings did match what Hagin warned against. That Copeland walked from doing that is a good thing but it doesn't mean there was never any verification of his falling into what Hagin warned against. Others can corrupt what people do - and some can come close.

Of course, even with others NOT believing Copeland to have been present (conjecture), others still note where Hagin rightfully called a conference to address the issue of extremes in the movement his spiritual sons not calling out the issues as forecfully as they should have. Victoryword noted this long ago here when saying the following:

You don't have to promote a teaching in order to still be held to account for where you may not have done as much as possible to keep it from getting out of hand - hence, why Hagin's book was a warning.

The late Kenneth Hagin Sr. and Dr. Fred Price both disagree with the 100 fold return teaching (See Hagin's "The Midas Touch" and Price's "The Purpose of Prosperity").

However, I do not believe Copeland to be extreme in this area. There is a downloadable book on his web page concerning prosperity that I would encourage all to get. Copeland certainly places more emphasis on financial prosperity than Hagin and Price, but he does not teach prospering for the sake of prospering.

Originally Posted by victoryword

..allow me to first quote Dad Hagin from his book, The Midas Touch. Hagin disputes the teaching primarily on dispensational grounds:

There has been quite a bit of discussion in the last couple of years about a coming transference of wealth from the world to the Church. The idea is based on part of a scripture that says, “… the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just” (Prov. 13:22). Apparently, some have interpreted this to mean that the day will come when God’s people will have plenty of money for the work of God – money transferred to us from the wealth of the worldly.
First of all, I really don’t see anything about this in the New Testament, especially in terms of what we are supposed to be actively believing God for. And I’m always wary about building a doctrine or basic belief on a single scripture. Jesus said, “… in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established” (Matt. 18:16). – p. 171
​

Hagin uses 3 John 7 to dispute the end time wealth transfer. This passage in the literal translation says, "For on behalf of His name they went out, taking nothing from the nations." Hagin seems to have a good case against it with this passage. He further writes,
Our job is not to try to get the wealth of the world. Our job is to faithfully use the wealth we already have to get the gospel out.

The Bible does teach that when the Church returns with Jesus after the Tribulation and He sets up His Millennial Kingdom on earth, we will be inheriting all of the wealth of the sinners at that time. I don’t see anywhere in the New Testament where we are supposed to be focused on getting their money now. Instead, we should be concentrating on seeking the hearts of the unsaved and faithfully using the finances we already have. – p. 172
​

My Thought: It is unusual for me to agree with Copeland more than Hagin when there is a disparity between the two. However, the Scriptural evidence for God's people to receive the wealth of the nations seems to outweigh the little evidence that Hagin gives in dispute of it. Furthermore, Hagin's prooftext can be interpretted differently within its context.

I am not sure that I would ever use the phrase End-Time Wealth Transfer since it is not a phrase that I can find in Scripture. What I would say inlight of the Scriptures cited is that since all the silver and gold belongs to God, He will make provision for us, including that which is in posession of the sinners. It's all His anyway.

The best resource to counter this selfish teaching is Kenneth Hagin's excellent book, The Midas Touch. Written by one of the most influential leaders in the WoF in order to chastize many of his spiritual offbreed.

However, I have found that even the books by Kenneth Copeland refutes the idea that prosperity is for selfish gain. Many followers of the Faith Message do not always listen to those that teach them. They take the parts that appeal to them and toss away the rest.

There have been several places where discussion has occurred, Hagin's Last Book? being one of them among others.

Are you debating in the wof forum my brother against a wof founding teacher like Copeland?

Seeing that I've already been here for years - long before you arrived (as I grew up in the Faith movement) and other WOFers have long pointed out where it was fellowship/in agreement, trying to talk on debating is a moot issue. Nothing was said against Copeland that has not already been in agreement with several other Faith teachers and members. Moreover, when other founders share words DIRECTLY in regards to others, that is in agreement with the the founding of the movement. Hagin was and always will be the Spiritual Father of Copeland - and thus, I will go with what he noted.

And as said before, if one feels Copeland did NOT say something opposite of what Hagin said, there needs to be evidence of it - DIRECT quotes and REFERENCES. Otherwise, it's all speculation.

Moreover, as it concerns WOF founders, I think it's noteworthy that you already spoke in the forum against other WOF Members claiming they were not WOF when it came to their agreeing with other WOF teachers who supported Hagin. Thus, I'd caution you to pause before going further since Hagin never supported battling against others in making inaccurate claims of them whenever they disagreed and claiming they did not seek to walk in faith.

He noted the dynamic of what Galatians 5 points out with walking in love, as seen in his book called "Love Never Fails" (one of my favorites ) and "What Manner of Man are you?" as well as "Love: The Way to Victory"

Again, I appreciate much of what Copeland has done for the Body of Christ.Discussing where some things he has said I don't suscribe to is not the same as denouncing him or saying he's not a founder in WOF. It is simple discussion happening in the Faith movement..

Respectfully, Of course, if trying to bring up that I somehow denounce him, we can go back to the MJ forum where you already ignored other MJ people who disagreed with you and said you shouldn't be teaching and it continued - despite where you actually were going counter to the founders of the modern Messianic Judaism movement (i.e. Dan Juster, Asher Intrater, Zola Levitt, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, MJAA/UMJC, etc.). Your disagreeing with them (when agreeing with others), of course, is NOT something others in the Messianic world really care to go to war over since we're comfortable with disagreements and knowing that many things evolve. Do we need to go there? Of course not.

But as said before, I do think it would be wisdom for me to not really respond to you until some of my earlier questions can be addressed and what I have said can be dealt with in context since it seems you're responding to things I never advocated.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Lol, this post made me think. I will make it a point to say this (or something like it) more often to people. Encouragement is something we are all called to, as much as instruction. I will start with you. I appreciate all your recent posts my friend, and find your posts both refreshing and inspiring. Thank you for being a part of this community.

Peace...

Love how you seek to encourage others and keep the main thing the Main THING

 

[Truthfrees]

Hi GXG,
Thanks for your concern, but we're on different wavelengths I believe.

Blessings to you my brother, but I will no longer respond to these kinds of posts you've been directing my way.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I agree. God does not use/traffic in evil; or as I've said it, God does not wield evil.

Perhaps it would be beneficial to understand what it means to traffic in evil and how that is different from times the Lord did things which others associated with evil - even though it was far from it.

I have in mind the difference between saying God supports genocide like what occurred in the Armenian Genocide or the African Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade (which is false) and then examining the ways others say God did genocide with events like the Lord bringing the Flood in Genesis 6 and raining Sulfur with Sodom/Gomorrah in Genesis 19 or the cleansing of the Promise Land by commanding the extermination of the Cannanites who resisted - things people in the secular world today claim to be "evil" even though God's perspective is different.

 

[hhodgson]

Gxg (G²) You did it again. Another home run...

Unbelievably awesome... From my POV on the subject. If I were to be a judge in a court room... I would slam my gavel down and say...

Case Closed...

​

 

[victoryword]

For the record I personally am not against healthy debate among WoF adherents. I personally find "kumbaya" stuff boring. Nothing wrong with debating certain teachings of our movement. On the contrary, I enjoy it.

My problem is when God's character is maligned. Making God the creator of evil goes beyond a mere disagreement. We are talking about our FATHER here guys, not some WoF "principle" or "concept". We are talking abou our GOD.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

For the record I personally am not against healthy debate among WoF adherents. I personally find "kumbaya" stuff boring. Nothing wrong with debating certain teachings of our movement. On the contrary, I enjoy it.

My problem is when God's character is maligned. Making God the creator of evil goes beyond a mere disagreement. We are talking about our FATHER here guys, not some WoF "principle" or "concept". We are talking abou our GOD.

I would still wonder what dynamic would be present in saying God is the "creator of evil" - a VERY important question that needs to be addressed since the world already finds itself very weary of believers who always ascribe each and every negative event to "God's Will" (like saying Hurricane Katrina or the Hati Earthquake was God's judgement and doing the same as believers did in Luke 13 or John 9 when they assumed those suffering worse than others were cursed by God). God's CHARACTER is always a big deal.


But as I said to ABM, perhaps it would be beneficial to understand what it means to traffic in evil and how that is different from times the Lord did things which others associated with evil - even though it was far from it. I have in mind the difference between saying God supports genocide like what occurred in the Armenian Genocide or the African Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade (which is false) and then examining the ways others say God did genocide with events like the Lord bringing the Flood in Genesis 6 and raining Sulfur with Sodom/Gomorrah in Genesis 19 or the cleansing of the Promise Land by commanding the extermination of the Cannanites who resisted - things people in the secular world today claim to be "evil" even though God's perspective is different.

And as said earlier, we do see where God appointed/rose others up to power to deliver judgement like releasing a pit-bull into a neighborhood to do damage - God would still be responsible in the ultimate since he allowed it (more shared in #44 ) . And other times, it seems God let things loose on his own, as with the 10 plagues of Egypt.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I can show you sovereignty teaching from Hagin, thru Copeland to Dollar, Seville, Winston, Duplantis and more. It is a part of God's character in our theology.

Why does the Bible say we are gods? - Kenneth Copeland Ministries
(speaking on the topic of men being little gods) --

About these verses Brother Copeland has said:

“You’re created in the same spiritual class as God (in His image—Genesis 1:26). The difference between you and me and God Almighty is that He’s sovereign, and we’re not. There are certain things in your life that you’re lord over, and nobody can do anything about those things but you. God will hold you responsible as an underlord of His in certain things in your household, certain things with your body. Now, your body belongs to Him—He paid for it. But if you don’t do something about it in His Name, there’s nothing going to be done about it. God, on the other hand, is sovereign. He doesn’t have anyone over Him, and there’s nobody He has to answer to. But there’s no such thing as a sovereign human being.”​

You see, the Open Theist denies this (or they redefine what sovereign means).

If I may say...

Studying Dollar growing up, there were NUMEROUS times where I saw him speak in regards to the subject of Open Theism - and it was very easily renconciled with the dynamic of Sovereignty since not all forms of Open Theism were were universal in being the same. Creflo has often spoken on the purpose of God's Will and the ways that some things can be missed - and God works with men to see what they will do. His series "Growth into Sonship" also emphasized the same reality when it came to the dynamic of God learning....or choosing to experience certain dynamics in the same way man does in order to truly relate to man - and the same goes with letting certain things be open/not set in stone..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VLSePeAxFg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nts2yT05yHM

And even Hagin noted the reality of where prophesies were both conditional and unconditional. As he stated in The Gift of Prophecy:

There are conditional prophecies and unconditional prophecies. The story of King Hezekiah's sickness is an example of a
conditional prophecy. In Second Kings 20:1-3 we read, "In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah...said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live. Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord, saying, I beseech thee, O Lord, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah
wept sore."

Notice Hezekiah said he walked before the Lord with a perfect heart. God is more interested in our having a perfect heart than in our always having perfect actions. We read further in this chapter, "...the word of the Lord
came to him [Isaiah], saying, Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the Lord. And I will add unto thy days fifteen years..." (vv. 4-6).

God told Hezekiah that under the present circumstances—if things continued as they were—he should set his house in order, because he was going to die. But the king changed this prophecy. Nobody changed it for him; he changed it for himself. The Bible says he turned his face to the wall, wept, and prayed.
Then God sent further word through the prophet, saying, "I have heard your prayer. I'm going to heal you and give you fifteen more years."


​

Prophecy itself is something that is not automatically a matter of God saying "I said this would happen - and thus, it'll happen regardless." There's a big level of openess as to what goes down when the Lord declares something...

For many, open theism is simply the dynamic that God has the ability to know all things and yet chooses not to know all things at the time. He knows all possible paths and yet he has chosen to see what WE will do before opening those doors for access to those blueprints on how things will go after we've made a choice. It's not absolute, of course, just as SOVEREIGNTY is not absolute/into the extreme where all things are "fated." Some things are open and God has not made up His mind while other things are ordained ....and in the same way that God had said to King Saul "I would have established you forever if you obeyed me - but no longer!" in I Samuel 14-15 when it came to his choosing David to replace him, it's nothing contradictory in saying God could know at all times what Saul would do and yet still saw what would happen if Saul obeyed ...and was present in that reality just as much as he was in the reality where Saul disobeyed (more shared in #21).

• Does the Bible prove open theology? | The Christian Century

I thought another said it best when they stated the following:

God has created a free universe where God stoops down as it were and walks alongside His creation in real time. In place of “perceiving the entire course of human existence in one timeless moment, God comes to know events as they take place. He learns something from what transpires.”... In light of this, one can say that God learns. The term “learn” can convey a series of things yet “God does not have to be pictured as learning absolutely new knowledge, that is, he came to know something which was absolutely new to him.” Take for instance at Genesis chapter 22 where the narrative of the sacrifice of Isaac. Here God tests Abraham by commanding to sacrifice his son Isaac. The readers are told “Then they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son” (Genesis 22:9-10). Then “the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me” (Genesis 22:11-12). The text presents God as saying, “now I know”, statements such as this on the part of God:

can be viewed as God’s knowledge of which choice Abraham would make out of the possible choices Abraham could make. Abraham could disobey the command of God. When God claims that he now knows that Abraham will obey, he is not learning that humans can obey (as if that were something he did not know before), but that this human has chosen to obey rather than disobey, both of which God knew as possibilities beforehand. In this way, God can be viewed as gaining knowledge of which choice a person will make, without literally adding new information to the body of knowledge he has eternally possessed (Isaiah 40:14).​

[8]​

 

[victoryword]

I would still wonder what dynamic would be present in saying God is the "creator of evil" - a VERY important question that needs to be addressed since the world already finds itself very weary of believers who always ascribe each and every negative event to "God's Will" (like saying Hurricane Katrina or the Hati Earthquake was God's judgement and doing the same as believers did in Luke 13 or John 9 when they assumed those suffering worse than others were cursed by God). God's CHARACTER is always a big deal.


But as I said to ABM, perhaps it would be beneficial to understand what it means to traffic in evil and how that is different from times the Lord did things which others associated with evil - even though it was far from it. I have in mind the difference between saying God supports genocide like what occurred in the Armenian Genocide or the African Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade (which is false) and then examining the ways others say God did genocide with events like the Lord bringing the Flood in Genesis 6 and raining Sulfur with Sodom/Gomorrah in Genesis 19 or the cleansing of the Promise Land by commanding the extermination of the Cannanites who resisted - things people in the secular world today claim to be "evil" even though God's perspective is different.

And as said earlier, we do see where God appointed/rose others up to power to deliver judgement like releasing a pit-bull into a neighborhood to do damage - God would still be responsible in the ultimate since he allowed it (more shared in #44 ) . And other times, it seems God let things loose on his own, as with the 10 plagues of Egypt.

Hello Greg

All of your concerns can be answered with the truth that God removed His protection and permitted these things while taking credit for what was done. I am traveling right now and using my iPad so I cannot get to my notes. But here is an example:

The anger of the Lord burned against Israel so that he sold them into the hands of Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram Naharaim, to whom the Israelites were subject for eight years. (Judges 3:8)​

Notice that "He sold them". Also check out Psalm 81. Psalm 78:49-52 tells us that it was evil Angels that were responsible for the Egyptian plagues. It is a thorough study which would make a couple of long posts (a book is planned).

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hello Greg

All of your concerns can be answered with the truth that God removed His protection and permitted these things while taking credit for what was done. I am traveling right now and using my iPad so I cannot get to my notes. But here is an example:

The anger of the Lord burned against Israel so that he sold them into the hands of Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram Naharaim, to whom the Israelites were subject for eight years. (Judges 3:8)​

Notice that "He sold them". Also check out Psalm 81. Psalm 78:49-52 tells us that it was evil Angels that were responsible for the Egyptian plagues. It is a thorough study which would make a couple of long posts (a book is planned).

Don't know where the name "Greg" came from as I've never called myself that - but oh well

As it concerns the issue, God taking credit is still a matter of God associating himself with the event - no different than sending someone to destroy another and then later saying it was done in your name. One couldn't say in that instance "I was not responsible for the harm that came upon you since someone else inflicted it" when the reality is that you already claimed that you would do if if folks were tripping. God was the one who accepted the full blame and glory for an event others claimed to be evil - more said here:

Exodus 9:14

13 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me, or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth.


Deuteronomy 28:58-60
58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you.​

Moreover, going through Exodus, there were many times it was made plain that the Lord was the one who directly brought a plague on others - it was never another fallen angel.

Exodus 12:29-30
29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.​

Psalm 78:49-52 does say the following:

He unleashed against them his hot anger,
his wrath, indignation and hostility—
a band of destroying angels.
50 He prepared a path for his anger;
he did not spare them from death
but gave them over to the plague.
51 He struck down all the firstborn of Egypt,
the firstfruits of manhood in the tents of Ham.
52 But he brought his people out like a flock;
he led them like sheep through the wilderness.​

Of course, we have scriptures showing where there were other mediators involved who dispensned God's Judgement - as we see in Acts 7:53 and Galatians 3:19 that angels were the ones who mediated the giving of the Torah itself via the 10 Commandments. God had given the Law to Moses through angels and it was harmonious with Exodus 31:1-8 which said that God wrote the Ten Commandments himself ("inscribed by the finger of God."). God used angelic messangers as the mediators to deliever his law to Moses - and this is similar to what occurred with the Angel of the Lord whenever he was sent to bring judgment to the world..with it being said that God did something but in fact it was an angelic servant..

Exodus 23:23
My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out.​

There's a reason people within Jewish culture (who are believers ) have noted that it was always Christ who was present throughout the entire OT...that Yeshua was "the Angel of the Lord" - part of the concept behind Theophanies (( Genesis 16:7-12, Exodus 23:20-23 , (Judges 13:18, (1 Chronicles 21:18) - that as much as people say the God of the OT was very violent, that it was truly Christ who was present there the entire time...the same Angel of the Lord who killed 185,000 of them in one night, forcing those remaining to retreat after they harmed Israel/insulted God's people (2 Kings 19:35) - who was a protector of Israel and is lauded in the Psalms as such: "The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and rescues them" (Psalm 34: 7). ...and chose to eat with St. Abraham in Genesis 18 and promise a son through whom the world would be saved.. As it concerns God acting in the Exodus account, from a Christian perspective, I've seen it argued that Death itself is a concept that God created and used on several occassions - with others feeling it is a literal being (based on I Corinthians 15 and other passages dealing with the Angel of Death, more shared here and here) - really an angel sent to execute judgment on the nations.


And with the Plagues themselves, when you read the rest of God’s Word, you get a panoramic view of events …especially an “After-the-fact” perspective that shows what was going down. I used to think the Hebrews were innocent in their slavery – like they were just mistreated and that’s why God came for them…till I read this from centuries after (when God disciplined Israel for a problem they struggled with – and that he said wasn’t new):

Ezekiel 20:6-8
7 Then I said to them, ‘Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.’ 8 But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, ‘I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’ 9 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.​

What just occurred was God alerting the people (in the future time when they were also experiencing a crash – Israel’s exile/punishment) to how his delivering of them out of Egypt wasn’t divorced from his being bothered by things they did WHILE they were in Egypt. He said "Cast you away every man his images that he uses for worship, that are the adorations, but should be the abominations, of his eyes. Let him abominate them, and put them out of his sight, and defile not yourselves with the idols of Egypt.’’

This passage suggests that even prior to leaving Egypt the people were wrapped up in idolatry and the worship of the Egyptian gods. But God’s will was to stick with his people and to bring them out of Egypt, even in their rebellion against him, in order to protect his reputation in the world. Ezekiel basically argues that there has not been a time when the Israelites actually did follow God's ordinances, statues, and properly revered God's sabbaths.. When you see this fact, a lot of things with Exodus make sense – Exodus 32 and the Golden Calf they made after being delivered (which was an idol in Egypt they picked up) ….and why they were so quick to complain against the Lord at nearly every turn. God – when asking them to be devoted to Him – did nothing unreasonable. Being delivered from the Egyptian slavery, they should’ve quit the Egyptian idolatry, especially when God, at bringing them out, executed judgment upon the gods of Egypt (Num. 33:4 ) and thereby showed himself above them…but the Hebrews didn’t understand that. And it is because of this that God did what He did. why God, when delivering the people from Egypt, had to establish His dominance by demolishing ALL of the Egyptian gods (polytheism) in their powers and abilities.....it was essentially a showdown on who the REAL God of the world was

Thus, when the Lord brought his plauges upon the people after the Exodus, it was not simply another force coming on the Hebrews. God Himself had beef with the people and came directly against it .

Exodus 32:35
And the Lord struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

Numbers 11:33
But while the meat was still between their teeth and before it could be consumed, the anger of the Lord burned against the people, and he struck them with a severe plague.

Numbers 16 (Korrah's Rebellion)
23 Then the Lord said to Moses, 24 “Say to the assembly, ‘Move away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.’”

25 Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him. 26 He warned the assembly, “Move back from the tents of these wicked men! Do not touch anything belonging to them, or you will be swept away because of all their sins.” 27 So they moved away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing with their wives, children and little ones at the entrances to their tents.

28 Then Moses said, “This is how you will know that the Lord has sent me to do all these things and that it was not my idea: 29 If these men die a natural death and suffer the fate of all mankind, then the Lord has not sent me. 30 But if the Lord brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the realm of the dead, then you will know that these men have treated the Lord with contempt.”

31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them and their households, and all those associated with Korah, together with their possessions. 33 They went down alive into the realm of the dead, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community. 34 At their cries, all the Israelites around them fled, shouting, “The earth is going to swallow us too!”

35 And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.

Numbers 21:5-7

5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!” 6 Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.



1 Kings 21:21
He says, ‘I am going to bring disaster on you. I will wipe out your descendants and cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel—slave or free.


Isaiah 14:22
“I will rise up against them,” declares the Lord Almighty. “I will wipe out Babylon’s name and survivors, her offspring and descendants,” declares the Lord.​

Many more examples besides that - and of course, the Flood is the biggest one where the Lord wiped out the entire world in Genesis 6.

Genesis 6: 5-8
The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.....11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

Genesis 7:7-4
7 The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”​

This was not a demonic force that did so - but the Lord himself who warned that He would send the Flood to wipe out the evil men were doing...regardless of whether men called the act "evil" since it was justice.

It is a thorough study which would make a couple of long posts (a book is planned)

Would love to see sometime when it comes out..

 

[dkbwarrior]

I would still wonder what dynamic would be present in saying God is the "creator of evil" - a VERY important question that needs to be addressed since the world already finds itself very weary of believers who always ascribe each and every negative event to "God's Will" (like saying Hurricane Katrina or the Hati Earthquake was God's judgement and doing the same as believers did in Luke 13 or John 9 when they assumed those suffering worse than others were cursed by God). God's CHARACTER is always a big deal.


But as I said to ABM, perhaps it would be beneficial to understand what it means to traffic in evil and how that is different from times the Lord did things which others associated with evil - even though it was far from it. I have in mind the difference between saying God supports genocide like what occurred in the Armenian Genocide or the African Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade (which is false) and then examining the ways others say God did genocide with events like the Lord bringing the Flood in Genesis 6 and raining Sulfur with Sodom/Gomorrah in Genesis 19 or the cleansing of the Promise Land by commanding the extermination of the Cannanites who resisted - things people in the secular world today claim to be "evil" even though God's perspective is different.

And as said earlier, we do see where God appointed/rose others up to power to deliver judgement like releasing a pit-bull into a neighborhood to do damage - God would still be responsible in the ultimate since he allowed it (more shared in #44 ) . And other times, it seems God let things loose on his own, as with the 10 plagues of Egypt.

Hello Greg

All of your concerns can be answered with the truth that God removed His protection and permitted these things while taking credit for what was done. I am traveling right now and using my iPad so I cannot get to my notes. But here is an example:

The anger of the Lord burned against Israel so that he sold them into the hands of Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram Naharaim, to whom the Israelites were subject for eight years. (Judges 3:8)​

Notice that "He sold them". Also check out Psalm 81. Psalm 78:49-52 tells us that it was evil Angels that were responsible for the Egyptian plagues. It is a thorough study which would make a couple of long posts (a book is planned).

Good questions Gxg, and good answer Troy. I will say it even plainer, although I am sure to get some reaction to it.

I don't believe God was responsible for causing the flood, nor the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, nor any of the acts of death and destruction that are described in the Bible. These are simple explanations to me. Keep in mind that both of these events are in the book of Genesis, part of the Torah, authored by Moses; the earliest texts of the Bible, with the possible exception of Job. The idea of progressive revelation reveals a limited knowledge of God (and no knowledge of satan) starting with Moses and progressing through the generations as God speaks to the fathers by the prophets and the canon is expanded. Furthermore, the examples (the death of the firstborn, Davids numbering Israel, and the death of Jesus Himself) that I have given before, and that Troy has given paint a clear picture for me that scripture in places holds God accountable for things that the enemy is allowed to do. Add to this a knowledge of the character and nature of God, an understanding that evil and death do not come from Him, as well as the fact that God (as well as satan) had no authority on this earth outside of what man allowed them until the cross when a man (Jesus) took it back for the Father, and one can make the case for a God who does not traffic in such occurrences.

Moses instructions to the Israelites about the genocide of the Caananites is more problematic for me. On the face of it, it appears that these events do not fit within the framework that I have built. I have not yet arrived at an adequate doctrinal solution for this which fits my theology yet, but I am searching. If you have any ideas, I would love to hear them.

Peace...

 

[victoryword]

Don't know where the name "Greg" came from as I've never called myself that - but oh well

As it concerns the issue, God taking credit is still a matter of God associating himself with the event - no different than sending someone to destroy another and then later saying it was done in your name. One couldn't say in that instance "I was not responsible for the harm that came upon you since someone else inflicted it" when the reality is that you already claimed that you would do if if folks were tripping. God was the one who accepted the full blame and glory for an event others claimed to be evil - more said here:

Exodus 9:14

13 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me, or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth.


Deuteronomy 28:58-60
58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you.​

Moreover, going through Exodus, there were many times it was made plain that the Lord was the one who directly brought a plague on others - it was never another fallen angel.

Exodus 12:29-30
29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.​

Psalm 78:49-52 does say the following:

He unleashed against them his hot anger,
his wrath, indignation and hostility—
a band of destroying angels.
50 He prepared a path for his anger;
he did not spare them from death
but gave them over to the plague.
51 He struck down all the firstborn of Egypt,
the firstfruits of manhood in the tents of Ham.
52 But he brought his people out like a flock;
he led them like sheep through the wilderness.​

Of course, we have scriptures showing where there were other mediators involved who dispensned God's Judgement - as we see in Acts 7:53 and Galatians 3:19 that angels were the ones who mediated the giving of the Torah itself via the 10 Commandments. God had given the Law to Moses through angels and it was harmonious with Exodus 31:1-8 which said that God wrote the Ten Commandments himself ("inscribed by the finger of God."). God used angelic messangers as the mediators to deliever his law to Moses - and this is similar to what occurred with the Angel of the Lord whenever he was sent to bring judgment to the world..with it being said that God did something but in fact it was an angelic servant.. There's a reason people within Jewish culture (who are believers ) have noted that it was always Christ who was present throughout the entire OT...that Yeshua was "the Angel of the Lord" - part of the concept behind Theophanies (( Genesis 16:7-12, Exodus 23:20-23 , (Judges 13:18, (1 Chronicles 21:18) - that as much as people say the God of the OT was very violent, that it was truly Christ who was present there the entire time...the same Angel of the Lord who killed 185,000 of them in one night, forcing those remaining to retreat after they harmed Israel/insulted God's people (2 Kings 19:35) - who was a protector of Israel and is lauded in the Psalms as such: "The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and rescues them" (Psalm 34: 7). ...and chose to eat with St. Abraham in Genesis 18 and promise a son through whom the world would be saved.. As it concerns God acting in the Exodus account, from a Christian perspective, I've seen it argued that Death itself is a concept that God created and used on several occassions - with others feeling it is a literal being (based on I Corinthians 15 and other passages dealing with the Angel of Death, more shared here and here) - really an angel sent to execute judgment on the nations.


And with the Plagues themselves, when you read the rest of God’s Word, you get a panoramic view of events …especially an “After-the-fact” perspective that shows what was going down. I used to think the Hebrews were innocent in their slavery – like they were just mistreated and that’s why God came for them…till I read this from centuries after (when God disciplined Israel for a problem they struggled with – and that he said wasn’t new):

Ezekiel 20:6-8
“Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, ‘I am the LORD your God.’ 6 On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’[a] the glory of all lands. 7 Then I said to them, ‘Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.’ 8 But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, ‘I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’ 9 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.​

What just occurred was God alerting the people (in the future time when they were also experiencing a crash – Israel’s exile/punishment) to how his delivering of them out of Egypt wasn’t divorced from his being bothered by things they did WHILE they were in Egypt. He said "Cast you away every man his images that he uses for worship, that are the adorations, but should be the abominations, of his eyes. Let him abominate them, and put them out of his sight, and defile not yourselves with the idols of Egypt.’’

This passage suggests that even prior to leaving Egypt the people were wrapped up in idolatry and the worship of the Egyptian gods. But God’s will was to stick with his people and to bring them out of Egypt, even in their rebellion against him, in order to protect his reputation in the world. Ezekiel basically argues that there has not been a time when the Israelites actually did follow God's ordinances, statues, and properly revered God's sabbaths.. When you see this fact, a lot of things with Exodus make sense – Exodus 32 and the Golden Calf they made after being delivered (which was an idol in Egypt they picked up) ….and why they were so quick to complain against the Lord at nearly every turn. God – when asking them to be devoted to Him – did nothing unreasonable. Being delivered from the Egyptian slavery, they should’ve quit the Egyptian idolatry, especially when God, at bringing them out, executed judgment upon the gods of Egypt (Num. 33:4 ) and thereby showed himself above them…but the Hebrews didn’t understand that. And it is because of this that God did what He did. why God, when delivering the people from Egypt, had to establish His dominance by demolishing ALL of the Egyptian gods (polytheism) in their powers and abilities.....it was essentially a showdown on who the REAL God of the world was

Thus, when the Lord brought his plauges upon the people after the Exodus, it was not simply another force coming on the Hebrews. God Himself had beef with the people and came directly against it:

Exodus 32:35
And the Lord struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

Numbers 11:33
But while the meat was still between their teeth and before it could be consumed, the anger of the Lord burned against the people, and he struck them with a severe plague.

Numbers 16 (Korrah's Rebellion)
23 Then the Lord said to Moses, 24 “Say to the assembly, ‘Move away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.’”

25 Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him. 26 He warned the assembly, “Move back from the tents of these wicked men! Do not touch anything belonging to them, or you will be swept away because of all their sins.” 27 So they moved away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing with their wives, children and little ones at the entrances to their tents.

28 Then Moses said, “This is how you will know that the Lord has sent me to do all these things and that it was not my idea: 29 If these men die a natural death and suffer the fate of all mankind, then the Lord has not sent me. 30 But if the Lord brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the realm of the dead, then you will know that these men have treated the Lord with contempt.”

31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them and their households, and all those associated with Korah, together with their possessions. 33 They went down alive into the realm of the dead, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community. 34 At their cries, all the Israelites around them fled, shouting, “The earth is going to swallow us too!”

35 And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.

Numbers 21:5-7

5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!” 6 Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.​

Many more examples besides that - and of course, the Flood is the biggest one where the Lord wiped out the entire world in Genesis 6. That was not a demonic force that did so - but the Lord himself who warned that He would send the Flood to wipe out the evil men were doing...regardless of whether men called the act "evil" since it was justice.

Would love to see sometime when it comes out..

Greg

Your posts have too much for me to respond to without writing a book, and especially using an iPad. But take your last passage about Gos "sending" the snakes. The word "send" comes from the Hebrew word shalach which means to "allow" or "permit" (see notes in Rotherham's Emphasized Bible).

The snakes were already there - see Deut. 8:15. The Israelites pushed God away by speaking against Him and opened the door for the snakes. Upon repentance, God provided redemption ( snake on a pole). 1 Cor. 10 says that it was the Destroyer that was responsible for what happened in the wilderness.

 

[victoryword]

Good questions Gxg, and good answer Troy. I will say it even plainer, although I am sure to get some reaction to it.

I don't believe God was responsible for causing the flood, nor the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, nor any of the acts of death and destruction that are described in the Bible. These are simple explanations to me. Keep in mind that both of these events are in the book of Genesis, part of the Torah, authored by Moses; the earliest texts of the Bible, with the possible exception of Job. The idea of progressive revelation reveals a limited knowledge of God (and no knowledge of satan) starting with Moses and progressing through the generations as God speaks to the fathers by the prophets and the canon is expanded. Furthermore, the examples (the death of the firstborn, Davids numbering Israel, and the death of Jesus Himself) that I have given before, and that Troy has given paint a clear picture for me that scripture in places holds God accountable for things that the enemy is allowed to do. Add to this a knowledge of the character and nature of God, an understanding that evil and death do not come from Him, as well as the fact that God (as well as satan) had no authority on this earth outside of what man allowed them until the cross when a man (Jesus) took it back for the Father, and one can make the case for a God who does not traffic in such occurrences.

Moses instructions to the Israelites about the genocide of the Caananites is more problematic for me. On the face of it, it appears that these events do not fit within the framework that I have built. I have not yet arrived at an adequate doctrinal solution for this which fits my theology yet, but I am searching. If you have any ideas, I would love to hear them.

Peace...

Fully agree. When the Bible is studied very carefully God is exonerated from the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah and other "natural disasters". Also I have studied the Genocides but cannot deal with that without my notes.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Greg But take your last passage about Gos "sending" the snakes. The word "send" comes from the Hebrew word shalach which means to "allow" or "permit" (see notes in Rotherham's Emphasized Bible).

The snakes were already there - see Deut. 8:15. The Israelites pushed God away by speaking against Him and opened the door for the snakes. Upon repentance, God provided redemption ( snake on a pole). 1 Cor. 10 says that it was the Destroyer that was responsible for what happened in the wilderness.

Troy,

I understand what the word means when it comes to "permit." That doesn't really change anything since at the end of the day the Lord is the one who takes credit for the entire scenario - in the same way one allows a wild animal already present to run free/harm others FOR a purpose. Saying "Well the creature was already there!" still doesn't change the fact that the person took credit for it and noted it was done in order to make a point. Christ referenced the event as a preview (after the Bronze snake was given as a suggestion) in John 3 when saying it was a means of showing the people to look to Him.



Also, I Corinthians 10 doesn't say it was a destroyer - nor would it matter if it did since the scriptures already note the concept of the Angel of the Lord (who was also called "a destroyer" and yet also seen as a theophany of GOD...noted in 2 Kings 19:35 and 2 Samuel 24:16). The Destroyer was the Angel of the Lord sent to bring destruction. Later groups tried to say it was Satan but early Judaism never claimed that Satan himself was responsible for such acts just as it was with the Flood when God himself noted that HE was the one responsible for the great event.

Genesis 6: 5-8
The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.....11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

Genesis 7:7-4
7 The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”​

This was not a demonic force that did so - but the Lord himself who warned that He would send the Flood to wipe out the evil men were doing...regardless of whether men called the act "evil" since it was justice.

God - not the Devil - is the one who controls the weather, as he made the system. And within Judaism, it is noted that God alone is the one who brings rain. That's a basic fact within Jewish culture.
One cannot understand the scriptures as the early Jewish people saw them without actually dealing with what the early Hebrew sages said on the matter, both in the times of Christ and before.

Jeremiah 5:24
'They do not say in their heart, "Let us now fear the LORD our God, Who gives rain in its season, Both the autumn rain and the spring rain, Who keeps for us The appointed weeks of the harvest."

Psalms 68:9
You shed abroad a plentiful rain, O God; You confirmed Your inheritance when it was parched.

Jeremiah 10:13
When He utters His voice, there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, And He causes the clouds to ascend from the end of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain, And brings out the wind from His storehouses.

\​

When it comes to understanding the way that the world works, others have a view of CLASSICAL Theism that says that God causes all things to occur---including those things that are natural diasters. I remember when I was younger when a tornado occurred and one of the family was quick to say, "See, God's the one BEHIND THAT!!!"

Of course, there was a heated debate on the issue....with others thinking that its possible for God to create something without having to guide all aspects of it when it occurs naturally---as if He's behind every Tsunami, Hurricane, Drought, Monsoon, Blizzard, Landslide and all other destructive acts in nature that harm others.

Indeed, we realize according to Psalm 19 and Psalm 104 amongst other scriptures that God is intimately involved in nature.

• God is Sovereign over the weather (Exodus 9:29; Psalm 135:6-7; Jeremiah 10:13).

• God controls the skies and the rain (Psalm 77:16-19).

• God controls the wind (Mark 4:35-41; Jeremiah 51:16).

• God upholds and sustains the universe (Hebrews 1:3).

• God has power over the clouds (Job 37:11-12, 16).

• God has power over lightning and Satan (Psalm 18:14).

• God has power over all nature (Job 26).

Nevertheless, as many may trip over others seeing all natural diasters as something they can control simply by prayer, others don't take into account the other side where others often feel completely out of control with it..as if its all a matter of God orchestrating it and us having to sit back/chill instead of realizing that many things are events our prayers/actions cannot affect. Some things like Hurricanes and Tornados can be a form of God expressing His attributes via nature (as shared earlier when talking on God's artwork in nature in #81 ).

Again, I'm reminded of how many see every natural disaster as a sign of Divine Retribution... thinking every tornado or storm is a matter of the wrath of God and God choosing to be at work in the world. Honestly, some things simply happen---yet God can still use them to speak and work through us to handle them so that others are protected. Biblically, this seems to have occurred in /Luke 13:21 . For there Pilate had apparently placed to death some Galileans as they were offering worship sacrifices in Jerusalem. No explanation of the reason was given. THey had perhaps trangressed a Roman Law prompting the respons from the notoriously hard-hearted Pilate. Since their theology attributed individual suffering to individual sin, the Jews interpreted the fate of the Galileans as God's punishment of their guilt. This view of God's activity is known as Retribution Theology......and with that in mind, one sees how Jesus transfered the meaning of these incidents to the spiritual sphere. He does not deal with a Retribution Theory (similar to what occured with many concerning Hurricane Katrina and many saying it was of the Lord as JUDGEMENT). He instead points to the Lord and urgent demand of the present--that unless you repent, you will perish.
__________________

But that's besides the point.


God was never exonerated from the flood - or from Sodom and Gomorrah or from when Christ comes back in Revelation 20-22 on the White Horse breathing judgment on the nations. This is a common concept even within the Book of II Peter 3 as it concerns what the Apostles said when it comes to the world restoring the world by destorying it with fire in the same way He was credited with doing so with water (after Satan has been forever locked away). Even the two angels who had been sitting with GOD and Abraham in Genesis 18 were later sent to Sodom and Gomorrah to investigate it - and they were noted to be the Divine Angelic angels sent to deliver judgement. They were not demons - but God's Angelic servants.

Genesis 18:19-21
19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.” 20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

Genesis 19
Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed
19 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”

“No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”

9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”...16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the Lord was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, “Flee for your lives! Don’t look back, and don’t stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!”

18 But Lot said to them, “No, my lords, please! 19 Your[c] servant has found favor in your[d] eyes, and you[e] have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can’t flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I’ll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn’t it? Then my life will be spared.”

21 He said to him, “Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it.” (That is why the town was called Zoar.[f])



Genesis 19:24
Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens.​

 

[victoryword]

Greg, wish I had the time to keep debating this with you but rest assure that you are not giving any objections or Scriptures that I have not considered and that I could not answer. I will send you my outline on Noah's flood when I get home. Send me your email address if you are interested.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Greg, wish I had the time to keep debating this with you but rest assure that you are not giving any objections or Scriptures that I have not considered and that I could not answer. I will send you my outline on Noah's flood when I get home. Send me your email address if you are interested.

Troy,

Thank you for taking the time....although I already told you my name is not Greg - so I don't know why you insist on saying such. If it is an oversight, I can more than understand - but Please discontinue that. That said, I am aware of what you have said on the matter since you brought up the same things on CARM years ago - with other WOFers disagreeing with you. Dr. Dollar and other leaders in the Faith Movement have spoken on the issue before when it comes to seeing what it means to be spared from God's judgement and how to avoid that - and I can confidently say that you've not really said anything that I did not already know about since it has come up before over the years and it isn't unable to be dealt with in regards to the whole council of Scripture- although I am glad you considered them. If you want to send an outline, just hit me up on my PM box - or email from my main profile, as the option is there and I'd love to see what you compiled

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Good questions Gxg, and good answer Troy. I will say it even plainer, although I am sure to get some reaction to it.

I don't believe God was responsible for causing the flood, nor the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, nor any of the acts of death and destruction that are described in the Bible. These are simple explanations to me. Keep in mind that both of these events are in the book of Genesis, part of the Torah, authored by Moses; the earliest texts of the Bible, with the possible exception of Job. The idea of progressive revelation reveals a limited knowledge of God (and no knowledge of satan) starting with Moses and progressing through the generations as God speaks to the fathers by the prophets and the canon is expanded. Furthermore, the examples (the death of the firstborn, Davids numbering Israel, and the death of Jesus Himself) that I have given before, and that Troy has given paint a clear picture for me that scripture in places holds God accountable for things that the enemy is allowed to do. Add to this a knowledge of the character and nature of God, an understanding that evil and death do not come from Him, as well as the fact that God (as well as satan) had no authority on this earth outside of what man allowed them until the cross when a man (Jesus) took it back for the Father, and one can make the case for a God who does not traffic in such occurrences.

Moses instructions to the Israelites about the genocide of the Caananites is more problematic for me. On the face of it, it appears that these events do not fit within the framework that I have built. I have not yet arrived at an adequate doctrinal solution for this which fits my theology yet, but I am searching. If you have any ideas, I would love to hear them.

Peace...

If I may say,

I think that the concept of Progressive Revelation definitely has limits - and yet it is still immensely valuable. One can see how things done in the Book of Genesis differed from what was said within the Book of Leviticus (even though there were common links) - and on the subject, it does make a difference knowing how many things the Lord wanted to share could not be fully spelled out.

The problem, IMHO, comes when we may read back into the Bible and say that certain concepts were progressive because of where other things were revealed - and yet not remember the Jewish context which also noted how many things stayed consistent. It was not, for example, a change in Jewish thinking to have the concept of a Devil when it came to how GOD Executed judgment on the world - as that was still spoken by the prophets and (for that matter) the priests as it concerns seeing the reality of an Ancient Enemy and yet God still being in control and judging the world many times SEPEARATE from anything bad the Devil could do.

And on the issue, it does seem many apply the concept to the First Five books of the OT (Pentateuch) - but no one stops to consider that even stopping with Moses would not be fully consistent since others have gone further in noting that the same idea was also applied to ideas POST Moses (including the concept of the Devil being an explanation in the same way it is said that other things were explanations like the Flood). As we see throughout the Tanakh (especially Job), Satan only does what God commands him to do. haSatan literally means "the accuser/challenger" and He is one of the "sons of God", part of the divine council who serves as God's prosecutor to tempt and challenge humanity and report back to God on our failings. I definately see the concept of Satan having a Divine Role and being employed by the Lord, though as with man, I also see an evolution throughout the scriptures of his person....and that Satan was never seen as someone who was a "good" guy on the council for all time. It seems the Tanakh had him in the position of an accuser in the same way that someone was demoted in their job but still given another job when they rejected their first......and later, in the time of Christ (Luke 10), the Devil was considered to have fallen/been cast out of his job.

As Dr. Michael Heiser ( of Logos Bible Software and one of the leading scholars in Near Eastern culture) said best in his article entitled The Naked Bible » The Absence of Satan in the Old Testament:

Basically, “the satan” in Job is an officer of the divine council (sort of like a prosecutor). His job is to “run to and fro throughout the earth” to see who is and who is not obeying Yahweh. When he finds someone who isn’t and is therefore under Yahweh’s wrath, he “accuses” that person. This is what we see in Job — and it actually has a distinct New Testament flavor. (We also see it in Zechariah 3). But the point here is that this satan is not evil; he’s doing his job. Over time (specifically the idea of “being an adversary in the heavenly council” was applied intellectually to the enemy of God — the nachash (typically rendered “serpent&#8221 in Eden, the one who asserted his own will against Yahweh’s designs. That entity eventually becomes labeled “Satan” and so the adversarial role gets personified and stuck to God’s great enemy (also called the Devil). This is a good example of how an idea in Israelite religion plays out and is applied in different ways during the progress of revelation.
​

For a really excellent review on the issue that may be of benefit, one can go online and investigate an article entitled "SATANOLOGY: THE DOCTRINE OF SATAN - A Messianic Bible Study from Ariel Ministries." . Its by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum of "Ariel Ministries.org". ...and it does some of the best in-depth treatment on the character of Satan/Lucifer and many of the common objections others may give due to not understanding the Jewish framework when it comes to identifying who others are. If you haven't heard of him yet, you may be very blessed by his work. He's a Messianic Jew, whose family came from Russia...and in his lifestyle, he chooses to keep the OT festivals/enjoys what the Scriptures say of the beauty of the Law---though he does so because he has freedom in Yeshua to do so--or not. It is his choice and they are part of his heritage.

But I appreciated what he noted about Satan and the ways Jewish believers didn't always assume an evil angel was behind destruction of some kind in the world.

If the Lord brought a destructive wind on a pagan nation, it was not assumed that Satan was the one God ultimately used to do it - especially when considering events of calamity happened simultaneously and the devil cannot be all places at once...nor can all angels.

Many things within the OT are quite violent. Elisha himself called down a curse on others for making fun of his bald head and had 2 bears kill over forty-youths ( 2 Kings 2:23-25/ 2 Kings 2 ). ....and there's a reason that others often chose to become Zealots for the Lord. Phineas in Numbers 25:8 when he stabbed the Moabite prostitute and the Israelite to stop God's judgment and the Lord celebrated it cannot be avoided. The same thing goes for Samson in Judges 14-16 when the Spirit of the Lord came upon him and he went to war with the Phillistines....with Judges 15 being interesting after seeing how he had a riddle he made solved and the Spirit of God empowered him as he took vengence upon them by killing their own people to pay the winners what was agreed on. Again, anyone studying the prophets and OT Israel in how they did things will see that it wasn't anywhere close to being a pretty narrative or something where violence wasn't at times praised/celebrated.
As it is, the example of Elisha is interesting when seeing how he responded to mocking with the Lord's approval in shutting things done.

And all in the OT who followed God were believers, just as it is with believers today....be it Moses when it came to the slaughter of the Midianites for enticing Israel into sexual immorality after Balaam taught them how to seduce them, or David in his conquest of Jerusalem/wars---or Josiah in II Chronicles 33-34 who wiped out all of the idolators in the land/put them to death...and many others. The account of Maccabees also is another to consider as well as Phineas.

But with progressive revelation, I do think it makes a difference what others have said when it comes to seeing what we have in Christ and why the Lord did what he did in the OT with the Cannanites - showing his judgement in order to set the stage for us to appreciate what we have in Christ and what the Lord wants us to see of Him. More was shared here and in
There's also The “Third Way”: Seeing God’s Beauty in the Depth of Scripture’s Violent Portraits of God – ReKnew and here in OT Violence and Christian Behavior when it comes to seeing how Christ radically shifted everything with his emphasis . Also, with Progressive Revelation, many (such as Dr. Michael Heisner) believe that the Canaanite account was really one where the Lord was wiping out others who were Nephilim - more shared in Yahweh’s War Against the Nephilim

Thoughts?

 

[now faith]

Progressive revelation beyond the Word of God relies on philosophy.

There are no reasonable elements to determine if the revelation is concocted or based on a deeper study of God's Word.
Urantia is progressive revelation,it relies on part Bible and a cohesive group who has agreed on their revelation.
The Devil is a Liar.

When we reach a point where we agree some of the Old Testament are fables,then we can reach further and deny the New Testament as well.

This is my opinion in that the entire Bible is the Word of God.

Seemingly there are contradictions,but only due to our ability to comprehend.