God is POWER, Thus Spoke Calvinuthra

[lesliedellow]

You're totally not getting the point, dude.

I'm totally getting the point that you are a *******

 

[Received]

I'm totally getting the point that you are a *******

That most definitely wasn't my point.

 

[lesliedellow]

Reasons presupposes a standard. Therefore you're either at a standard outside himself or the both/and perspective.

If I am God, and I decree that every seventh day should be a day of rest, because it will allow my creatures to direct their attention towards me, rather than towards the means of keeping body and soul together, how does that involve a standard beyond myself?

 

[Received]

If I am God, and I decree that every seventh day should be a day of rest, because it will allow my creatures to direct their attention towards me, rather than towards the means of keeping body and soul together, how does that involve a standard beyond myself?

Because there's surely some reason that God decreed rest on the seventh day. He didn't just do it because he could do it, which would be the Calvinist way of going about things if everything God does is good only because he does it. The reason is something along the lines of: you guys work a lot, which is great, but if you work too much and don't learn to chill and appreciate things as they are, and think about how important I am to you, you'll work yourselves dry until you die an early death.

Reason here is the standard. This standard is either "outside" God, or somehow tied up with the nature of things, and God is creating a law to help human beings line up with the telos of things with regard to work.

 

[bhsmte]

Jerome's invention of Lucifer.

The mistranslations of "age-long pruning" into "eternal punishment".

How do you determine what a proper translation is?

"lying pen of the scribes"

Which scribes and how do you know they are lying?


That's a start.


We are all victims of thousands of years of the telephone game. You have to work to reveal what has been hidden by both man and God.

If you are talking about scripture, I would agree. When it is studied from an objective scholarly and historical standpoint, it is not difficult to see the credibility issues.

 

[lesliedellow]

Because there's surely some reason that God decreed rest on the seventh day. He didn't just do it because he could do it, which would be the Calvinist way of going about things if everything God does is good only because he does it. The reason is something along the lines of: you guys work a lot, which is great, but if you work too much and don't learn to chill and appreciate things as they are, and think about how important I am to you, you'll work yourselves dry until you die an early death.

Reason here is the standard. This standard is either "outside" God, or somehow tied up with the nature of things, and God is creating a law to help human beings line up with the telos of things with regard to work.

None of the above involves anything beyond God himself, and his own good pleasure. Nothing required him to make that stipulation. He made it because he chose to do so.

 

[lesliedellow]

If you are talking about scripture, I would agree. When it is studied from an objective scholarly and historical standpoint, it is not difficult to see the credibility issues.

You should google "textual criticism," which is something which preceeds the so called higher criticism. We can certainly have a far better idea of what the biblical authors wrote than what any other ancient author wrote.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

If you are talking about scripture, I would agree. When it is studied from an objective scholarly and historical standpoint, it is not difficult to see the credibility issues.

How do I determine accurate translation? Lots of study and comparison with itself and other texts, contemplation, listening for the spirit of it, but always being open other possibilities. My belief system is a living tree: I water, train, and prune daily.


Ultimately I must stand on my own heart on what I feel is praiseworthy of God. In my heart of hearts eternal punishment is not a praiseworthy trait of God. But that is also backed up with lots of research. The culture the bible arose from, the Jews; they do not believe in eternal hellfire, nor even a devil rebelling from God.

What I see in the bible are like so many leaves obscuring the braches and trunk, but it is there. I've found self similar branch structure in the majority of religions ancient and new. They each emphasize different aspects but the flavors of the original can be distilled out of the temporal telephone game by a passionate and open mind.

 

[lesliedellow]

The culture the bible arose from, the Jews; they do not believe in eternal hellfire

As I said earlier, the Pharisees did believe in eternal punishment. They also believed that everything which happens on Earth is preordained by God. A belief which Paul, a Pharisee himself, pursued through to its logical conclusion in predestination to salvation/damnation.

 

[Received]

None of the above involves anything beyond God himself, and his own good pleasure. Nothing required him to make that stipulation. He made it because he chose to do so.

Right, but this is vastly different than saying that whatever God does is good only because God does it.

 

[lesliedellow]

Right, but this is vastly different than saying that whatever God does is good only because God does it.

No it isn't. God can decree what he likes, and for whatever reason he likes.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

As I said earlier, the Pharisees did believe in eternal punishment. They also believed that everything which happens on Earth is preordained by God. A belief which Paul, a Pharisee himself, pursued through to its logical conclusion in predestination to salvation/damnation.

And where the Pharisees in good esteem with God according to Jesus?

Any cursory search will show you that the Jew's do not believe in eternal hell.

The words recorded from Jesus's mouth are "agelong pruning chastisement" not "eternal punishment."

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

No it isn't. God can decree what he likes, and for whatever reason he likes.

Sound like a whimsical, lawless, tyranical God.

 

[bhsmte]

You should google "textual criticism," which is something which preceeds the so called higher criticism. We can certainly have a far better idea of what the biblical authors wrote than what any other ancient author wrote.

Very familiar with textual criticism and have studied the work of scholars in this regard.

Knowing what ancient authors actually wrote (the original autographs) is one thing, determining whether what they wrote has historical credibility is another.

 

[Received]

No it isn't. God can decree what he likes, and for whatever reason he likes.

So he creates the reasons he follows?

 

[bhsmte]

How do I determine accurate translation? Lots of study and comparison with itself and other texts, contemplation, listening for the spirit of it, but always being open other possibilities. My belief system is a living tree: I water, train, and prune daily.


Ultimately I must stand on my own heart on what I feel is praiseworthy of God. In my heart of hearts eternal punishment is not a praiseworthy trait of God. But that is also backed up with lots of research. The culture the bible arose from, the Jews; they do not believe in eternal hellfire, nor even a devil rebelling from God.

What I see in the bible are like so many leaves obscuring the braches and trunk, but it is there. I've found self similar branch structure in the majority of religions ancient and new. They each emphasize different aspects but the flavors of the original can be distilled out of the temporal telephone game by a passionate and open mind.

I would agree, eternal punishment in regards to the Christian God that would impact 2/3 of the worlds population, is not something that can be reconciled with an; all loving God, who loves all his creation. At least, I can't reconcile it.

 

[lesliedellow]

And where the Pharisees in good esteem with God according to Jesus?

In the NT Jesus crosses swords with the Pharisees over their self righteousness, not their theology.

Any cursory search will show you that the Jew's do not believe in eternal hell.

What Jews believe today is fairly irrelevant.

he words recorded from Jesus's mouth are "agelong pruning chastisement" not "eternal punishment."

Then why don't even " liberal" translations, such as the Revised English Bible, translate it that way? Besides which, there are many other passages in the NT which speak of eternal punishment.

 

[Paradoxum]

God is good, loving and perfectly just. We've all been lied to about God because it is profitable to man.

There is no such being?

And you might make a complicated argument that, if we assume that God exists and is accessible to everyone in a preconscious sort of way (see Romans 1 for example), people like Paradoxum have more faith than people who claim to have faith but really hold highly a conception of God that's bad. When you reject the bad you have a sense of goodness. Let's call that "really God".

Try reading psalm 136, especially from verse 10. I doubt if the Egyptians et al would altogether go along with the refrain.

Well yeah, God in the OT is a bit of a psychopath. Do you think God is immoral and unloving?

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

In the NT Jesus crosses swords with the Pharisees over their self righteousness, not their theology.

What Jews believe today is fairly irrelevant.

Then why don't even " liberal" translations, such as the Revised English Bible, translate it that way? Besides which, there are many other passages in the NT which speak of eternal punishment.

The Jews have a habit of being sticklers for preservation of tradition. So what the vast majority of modern Jews believe is quite relevant.


Ancient Judaism's concept of hell is Sheol, which is place of punishment that lasts a maximum of 12 months after which the soul is raised again or destroyed.


Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”

Most Christians who believe in the doctrine of never-ending punishments base this on several passages in the New Testament that seem to speak of punishment in terms of “eternity.” Some of these passages include 2 Thes. 1:9, Rev. 14:11, and Rev. 20:10-15. However, the conclusion that God will torment most men forever is primarily based on a faulty understanding of the meaning of the Greek words “aion” and “aionios.” Unfortunately, most of our English Bibles do not accurately translate these words, and as a result, the doctrine of “eternal” hell continues to thrive in the midst of the organized church. Let’s take a look at both of these words and see how most Christians have misapplied them.

“Aion”

The Greek noun “aion” literally means “an age” or “an indeterminate period of time.” Hebrews 1:2 tells us that “God made the ages,” and the Apostle Paul tells us that there was a state of existence BEFORE the ages (1 Cor. 2:7) and that the ages will END. (1 Cor. 10:11) Clearly, if something begins and ends, it cannot be unending.

Strong’s Concordance gives this definition for the word “aion:”

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity 2) the worlds, universe 3) period of time, age.

According to Strong, this little four-letter Greek word can mean both “eternity” and “a period of time.” Huh? How can something mean both a period of time which clearly has a beginning and ending AND a state of existence that has neither beginning nor end? The simple answer is it can’t! The Greek language is not like English. It is much more precise which is why I’m sure God chose this as the language of the New Testament. While some English words can carry two different meanings totally separate from context, the Greek language is not so. While there can be different usages for a Greek word based on context, there is no one Greek word, that I am aware of, that can have two totally opposite meanings.

 

[quatona]

Goodness and God are identical. Within a Biblical worldview it can be no other way.

In which case we are left with "If it isn´t good it can´t be God".