God is POWER, Thus Spoke Calvinuthra

[Received]

I am sure you are not that ignorant of Christian theology. As an atheist would be only too happy to point out, without the Fall of Man the whole of Christian theology falls apart.

Not necessarily, if we're understanding this as a literal thing. The metaphorical interpretation is much interesting and useful, IMO.

 

[lesliedellow]

Not necessarily, if we're understanding this as a literal thing. The metaphorical interpretation is much interesting and useful, IMO.

"The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents" (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

The Catholic Church, of course, is famous for saying explicitly that the theory of Evolution poses no theological difficulties. An opinion which was also held by the famously conservative theologian B B Warfield.

 

[Received]

What's your opinion on this?

 

[lesliedellow]

What's your opinion on this?

Even though I am a Calvinist, my opinion would be much the same as that of the Catholic Church (or Mr Warfield).

 

[Received]

Even though I am a Calvinist, my opinion would be much the same as that of the Catholic Church (or Mr Warfield).

So you like giving other people jalepeno smoothies too, eh?

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

I don't know which universe you live in, but I have never once heard a pastor or priest say that Lucifer referred to Satan. Apart from anything else, it would be perfectly obvious to anybody who could read that it didn't. And, believe it or not, you are not the only literate person in the universe





I am sure you are not that ignorant of Christian theology. As an atheist would be only too happy to point out, without the Fall of Man the whole of Christian theology falls apart.

I'm not saying Lucifer is Satan, I'm saying Lucifer the fallen angel is an invention of Jerome and nothing more.

So now that reference refers back to the falls of Man when it is specifically referenced to Venus, the "rising star that is cast down and does not take his place among the rest of the stars."

King Neb was a good and noble King in the beginning. A light among men. Then he became corrupt and fell. Like the motions of Venus that "started" all fallen angel mythos.

And besides that root of the meaning "breaker of the dawn" was the morning crier. So a true translation would read "Wail (weep, howl, cry) oh sun of the morning."



We could instead talk about the error that Satan is a rebel angel, doing as he wills out of God's hands....*popcorn*

Telephone games in verse.

 

[lesliedellow]

I'm not saying Lucifer is Satan, I'm saying Lucifer the fallen angel is an invention of Jerome and nothing more.

The only "crime" Jerome was guilty of was to translate a Hebrew phrase, with a Latin word which meant more or less the same thing. The rest is all in your febrile imagination.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

The only "crime" Jerome was guilty of was to translate a Hebrew phrase, with a Latin word which meant more or less the same thing. The rest is all in your febrile imagination.

I imagined up an entirely new evil being and named him for the minds of men and created the resulting tons of story dogma wrapped around such an error of translation?


It is not in the interest of the Church to promote the power and existence of Evil so that the Church might appear more righteous in fighting it?

Is that not the whole point of "hellfire and brimstone" and "demon's just waiting to jump into meditating minds" sermons? The assertion of the power of Satan to cause fear and greater need for the church? Just how passionately did Jerome believe in the power of the Devil?


It's a collusion of a great many of influences, mostly of ignorance and greed for power. Incremental creep of error and story skew. Much to the benefit of the Church.

 

[lesliedellow]

I imagined up an entirely new evil being and named him for the minds of men and created the resulting tons of story dogma wrapped around such an error of translation?

Lucifer is a perfectly good Latin word, which is a perfectly good translation of a perfectly good Hebrew phrase.

Furthermore, the words Σατανας and διαβολος are scattered throughout the New Testament. Nobody needed to make them up.

It is not in the interest of the Church to promote the power and existence of Evil so that the Church might appear more righteous in fighting it?

So now you are going to rewrite the entire Bible to dispense with the notion of evil.

Is that not the whole point of "hellfire and brimstone" and "demon's just waiting to jump into meditating minds" sermons? The assertion of the power of Satan to cause fear and greater need for the church? Just how passionately did Jerome believe in the power of the Devil?

Apart from being a connoisseur of crackpot science, you are also a conspiracy theorist par excellence.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

Lucifer is a perfectly good Latin word, which is a perfectly good translation of a perfectly good Hebrew phrase.

Furthermore, the words Σατανας and διαβολος are scattered throughout the New Testament. Nobody needed to make them up.




So now you are going to rewrite the entire Bible to dispense with the notion of evil.




Apart from being a connoisseur of crackpot science, you are also a conspiracy theorist par excellence.

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (calamity): I the LORD do all these things."


The purpose of the Church has become for the existence of the Church and it has throughout history taken whatever advantage it could, opposing translated publications of the bible so that the common people would not know what it really says and only believe the clergy.

This is historical fact.

 

[lesliedellow]

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (calamity): I the LORD do all these things."

Quite. God preordains all things.

The purpose of the Church has become for the existence of the Church and it has throughout history

I will give you this much. The Catholic Church seems to imagine that it is exempt from the dictum that power tends to corrupt, and having so much power concentrated at the centre allowed child abuse to happen. But no other church has a power structure like that of the Catholic Church.

 

[PsychoSarah]

You assert that the dogma of Lucifer the fallen angel is not a part of mainstream Christianity? Because that would be news to me.

And yes, I should specify the establishment and not the bell curve of it's adherents.

Perhaps what you mistake as my "big head" is a passion for Truth and zeal against lies that chain mankind in ignorance and fear. Especially by those who would pose as an authority between man and God.

Certain aspects of the devil which are popularly assumed to be represented in the bible aren't

 

[Received]

I'm not saying Lucifer is Satan, I'm saying Lucifer the fallen angel is an invention of Jerome and nothing more.

So now that reference refers back to the falls of Man when it is specifically referenced to Venus, the "rising star that is cast down and does not take his place among the rest of the stars."

King Neb was a good and noble King in the beginning. A light among men. Then he became corrupt and fell. Like the motions of Venus that "started" all fallen angel mythos.

And besides that root of the meaning "breaker of the dawn" was the morning crier. So a true translation would read "Wail (weep, howl, cry) oh sun of the morning."



We could instead talk about the error that Satan is a rebel angel, doing as he wills out of God's hands....*popcorn*

Telephone games in verse.

What do you mean by telephone games?

And when I started interpreting the OT prophets as referring to historical events, this really opened the Bible up to me as a profoundly detailed and interesting document. It was also amazing to me how many verses I and other people in my church and Christendom interpreted in ways that weren't meant to be interpreted at all, typically for the sake of overglorifying Christ, almost to the point of theological compulsion.

 

[znr]

What?

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

What do you mean by telephone games?

And when I started interpreting the OT prophets as referring to historical events, this really opened the Bible up to me and a profoundly detailed and interesting document. It was also amazing to me how many verses I and other people in my church and Christendom used verses in ways that weren't meant to be used at all, typically for the sake of overglorifying Christ, almost to the point of theological compulsion.

The telephone game is where a story is told in a circle and it has completely changed by the time it gets back to the original speaker.

It is the nature of change in stories through time by incremental creep of details. My earlier sentence should read "telephone game in reverse"

The stories we have now are like so many leaves that obscure the divisions and branches through time, and also hides the single trunk it all comes from. Looking backwards is through a glass darkly

Even more hidden are the roots where the tree came from beneath the surface appearance of things.

The seed it all started as is nowhere to be found.

 

[PsychoSarah]

The telephone game is where a story is told in a circle and it has completely changed by the time it gets back to the original speaker.

It is the nature of change in stories through time by incremental creep of details. My earlier sentence should read "telephone game in reverse"

The stories we have now are like so many leaves that obscure the divisions and branches through time, and also hides the single trunk it all comes from. Looking backwards is through a glass darkly

Even more hidden are the roots where the tree came from beneath the surface appearance of things.

The seed it all started as is nowhere to be found.

If all religions did sprout from the same original religion, it would have been lost beyond recognition to essentially centuries of the "telephone game".

 

[Received]

What?

ETA'd. I had just woken from a nap.