God is not real... in my opinion...

[GodlessHeathen]

Hey Everyone,
I used to believe, unconditionally, in Yaweh when I was small, simply because people said there was a god who controlled everything, and, being small and open to suggestion, I just said "Oh. Cool." and went on with my life. Then I got to an age where I just thought, "Hmm. When you actually think about it, it becomes dead clear that there is no god.". That was my story, anyway.
Now to begin my argument... where to start...
If god is real why make other religions? Having opposing religions has always been a bad thing! Terrorism, war and just fighting in general. Christianity has been fairly quiet recently in terms of jihad(holy war), though. But only since about 200 years ago when christians said, "Hey, aren't we supposed to 'love thine enemy'?", at which point they droppped the Inquisition and settled down.
And I find that when you try to tell a christian that according to science, they're wrong they just go "But you must have faith.". Thats like believing the moon is made of cheese when science says its not.
And also... I think they make the debating section right at the bottom of the page in small letters so that not many christians will go here for the fear of losing disiples. C'mon prove me wrong!

Well, thats my first post out of the way then. Bye.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And I find that when you try to tell a christian that according to science, they're wrong they just go "But you must have faith.".

Hi. You might have better luck with the Muslims concerning Science and God.

Heck, I can't even explain how stars can "fall out of heaven"!!!

Reve 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of the heaven fell to the land, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

 

[GodlessHeathen]

Probably a big meteor hit the earth, during a meteor shower, and sent up giant clouds of dust. That would explain the moon and sun darkening, the earthquake, the falling stars and the mighty wind.

 

[arunma]

Hello Mr. Heathen, welcome to CF!

Hey Everyone,
I used to believe, unconditionally, in Yaweh when I was small, simply because people said there was a god who controlled everything, and, being small and open to suggestion, I just said "Oh. Cool." and went on with my life. Then I got to an age where I just thought, "Hmm. When you actually think about it, it becomes dead clear that there is no god.". That was my story, anyway.

Interesting story, thanks.

Now to begin my argument... where to start...
If god is real why make other religions? Having opposing religions has always been a bad thing!

Most orthodox Christians would say that false religions are evil, and they exist because humanity is fallen. We can see from the creation account that false religion originates when man replaces the commandment of God with the word of man.

Terrorism, war and just fighting in general. Christianity has been fairly quiet recently in terms of jihad(holy war), though. But only since about 200 years ago when christians said, "Hey, aren't we supposed to 'love thine enemy'?", at which point they droppped the Inquisition and settled down.

The Inquisition is often given far too much credit. If you were to go with pure numbers, then technically atheists (such as Stalin and Mao) have killed far more people the Inquisitors. Besides this, the commandment to love one's enemy is found even in the most ancient of Christian texts. The problem is that you have examined only the European church, and the Europeans were rather violent both before and after Christianity.

And I find that when you try to tell a christian that according to science, they're wrong they just go "But you must have faith.". Thats like believing the moon is made of cheese when science says its not.

As someone who is reasonably well-educated in science, I can assure you that science does not say that "we're wrong." Science does not even address questions of religion. If you use science to justify or disprove religion, then you're using science for something other than its intended purpose.

And also... I think they make the debating section right at the bottom of the page in small letters so that not many christians will go here for the fear of losing disiples. C'mon prove me wrong!

That part is easy. The debate sections are linked with the same size font as the other sections. And by putting them at the bottom of the page, they are actually easier to find than the sections that are listed in the middle. Besides that, if the creators of Christian forums were concerned about Christians losing their faith, they wouldn't have a debate section, nor would they allow unbelievers to become posting members. In fact, there are some Christian forums that have no debate section at all.

 

[TrevorKamal]

Hey Everyone,
I used to believe, unconditionally, in Yaweh when I was small, simply because people said there was a god who controlled everything, and, being small and open to suggestion, I just said "Oh. Cool." and went on with my life. Then I got to an age where I just thought, "Hmm. When you actually think about it, it becomes dead clear that there is no god.". That was my story, anyway.
Now to begin my argument... where to start...
If god is real why make other religions? Having opposing religions has always been a bad thing! Terrorism, war and just fighting in general. Christianity has been fairly quiet recently in terms of jihad(holy war), though. But only since about 200 years ago when christians said, "Hey, aren't we supposed to 'love thine enemy'?", at which point they droppped the Inquisition and settled down.
And I find that when you try to tell a christian that according to science, they're wrong they just go "But you must have faith.". Thats like believing the moon is made of cheese when science says its not.
And also... I think they make the debating section right at the bottom of the page in small letters so that not many christians will go here for the fear of losing disiples. C'mon prove me wrong!

Well, thats my first post out of the way then. Bye.

I think you're missing a lot of other possibilities that make much more sense than either of those two beliefs.

 

[9Harmony]

Welcome to CF

A wise man once said..."I don't believe in the same God you don't believe in."

I understand that it can be very confusing to sort through all of the various belief systems and make sense of any of it.

My personal perspective is that it really does all make sense, but it's by no means an easy thing to decipher, it's takes dedication and persistance to unravel these mysteries, but the answers are available to all who seek them.

I believe that the different religions are different chapters in the one unfolding religion of God. But they differ due to the circumstances of the age and society in which they appeared, it is only now in this age that we can begin to understand why. As the means for global communication is available to us on a scale like never before.

I also believe that true science and true religion must harmonize. The truth will be found in the balance.

Again, welcome!

Happy New Year!

-Amy

 

[GodlessHeathen]

The Inquisition is often given far too much credit. If you were to go with pure numbers, then technically atheists (such as Stalin and Mao) have killed far more people the Inquisitors.

Stalin and Mao were acting on what they thought were good the the people. The Inquisistion were acting on behalf of god.

As someone who is reasonably well-educated in science, I can assure you that science does not say that "we're wrong." Science does not even address questions of religion. If you use science to justify or disprove religion, then you're using science for something other than its intended purpose.

Science says man evolved. Religion says god did it.
The Bible says that Moses lead thousands of Jews into Isreal. Science says that there is no historical or geological evidence.

That part is easy. The debate sections are linked with the same size font as the other sections. And by putting them at the bottom of the page, they are actually easier to find than the sections that are listed in the middle. Besides that, if the creators of Christian forums were concerned about Christians losing their faith, they wouldn't have a debate section, nor would they allow unbelievers to become posting members. In fact, there are some Christian forums that have no debate section at all.

Alright. You got me. I was just trying to attract people to the post.

I think you're missing a lot of other possibilities that make much more sense than either of those two beliefs.

I'm new at this, but always willing to learn. Please, enlighten me.

Welcome to CF

A wise man once said..."I don't believe in the same God you don't believe in."

I understand that it can be very confusing to sort through all of the various belief systems and make sense of any of it.

My personal perspective is that it really does all make sense, but it's by no means an easy thing to decipher, it's takes dedication and persistance to unravel these mysteries, but the answers are available to all who seek them.

I believe that the different religions are different chapters in the one unfolding religion of God. But they differ due to the circumstances of the age and society in which they appeared, it is only now in this age that we can begin to understand why. As the means for global communication is available to us on a scale like never before.

I also believe that true science and true religion must harmonize. The truth will be found in the balance.

Again, welcome!

Happy New Year!

-Amy

Does that mean, in basic terms, that you believe that all the religions are different stages of one big religion? And Happy New Year to you too.
Counld you also explain the difference between true and normal science and religion?

 

[TrevorKamal]

I'm always willing to learn. Please, enlighten me.

Listen to 9Harmony for starters.

 

[9Harmony]

Science says man evolved. Religion says god did it...

...Does that mean, in basic terms, that you believe that all the religions are different stages of one big religion? And Happy New Year to you too.
Counld you also explain the difference between true and normal science and religion?

What if God created man to evolve? Harmony of science and religion.

and yes, basically that's what i believe. One God, who has continually educated mankind throughout history, through the means available to society at each stage.

There is no contradiction between true religion and science. When a religion is opposed to science it becomes mere superstition: that which is contrary to knowledge is ignorance.

How can a man believe to be a fact that which science has proved to be impossible? If he believes in spite of his reason, it is rather ignorant superstition than faith. The true principles of all religions are in conformity with the teachings of science. (Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 141)

 

[GodlessHeathen]

Thats an interesting faith... Never encountered it before. Was it a belief you came up with or were you converted?
I see what you mean about harmony between science and religion. Is all very interesting.

 

[9Harmony]

it's a real religion, the newest of the World Religions. It began in 1844, in Persia (Iran). And yes, I'm a convert, I was raised Catholic. I've been Baha'i almost 13 years now, and i have not regretted a moment of it.

actually i have an online friend who had decided she was going to start her own religion cuz she was so disillusioned with organized religion, and then she stumbled upon the Baha'i Faith and realized she didn't need to, it already existed.

 

[Arthra]

Heathen wrote:

But only since about 200 years ago when christians said, "Hey, aren't we supposed to 'love thine enemy'?", at which point they droppped the Inquisition and settled down.

My comment:

In my view it would be wonderful if that occurred, that Christians really settled down and agreed they were suppose to love their enemies...

- Art

 

[0rion]

I'd have to say Godlessheathen is right on this one.

 

[9Harmony]

Heck, I can't even explain how stars can "fall out of heaven"!!!

Reve 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of the heaven fell to the land, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

i have an explanation for that, but i don't want to derail this thread...maybe i'll start a new one, but it might be a couple days before i get around to it.

 

[Trish1947]

Hey Everyone,
I used to believe, unconditionally, in Yaweh when I was small, simply because people said there was a god who controlled everything, and, being small and open to suggestion, I just said "Oh. Cool." and went on with my life. Then I got to an age where I just thought, "Hmm. When you actually think about it, it becomes dead clear that there is no god.". That was my story, anyway.
Now to begin my argument... where to start...
If god is real why make other religions? Having opposing religions has always been a bad thing! Terrorism, war and just fighting in general. Christianity has been fairly quiet recently in terms of jihad(holy war), though. But only since about 200 years ago when christians said, "Hey, aren't we supposed to 'love thine enemy'?", at which point they droppped the Inquisition and settled down.
And I find that when you try to tell a christian that according to science, they're wrong they just go "But you must have faith.". Thats like believing the moon is made of cheese when science says its not.
And also... I think they make the debating section right at the bottom of the page in small letters so that not many christians will go here for the fear of losing disiples. C'mon prove me wrong!

Well, thats my first post out of the way then. Bye.

I remember when I was young, taking a look at the world around me, seeing all the hate, war, anger, injustice, hunger, poverty, woes of the world, and think "I wonder if there is a God." The more I looked around, I thought, just about everything has an opposite. Heat and cold, light and dark, truth and lies, good and evil, etc. So, I see this in all the world, it sort of convienced me that Gods Heaven and Kingdom would be completely opposite of what I could see. After studying scriptures and finding out there was an opposite kingdom that Jesus said was not of this world. It made since to me. He said My Kingdom is not of this world. And He prayed that Gods kingdom and will would be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Little did I realize at the time, that it wouldn't be accomplished by governments, force, wishful thinking, religions, or waking up one day seeing it, and saying "there it is". But would be done through one converted and convienced heart at a time that God loves mankind very much. So when I see all the woe on earth, I see why it was necessary for Him to come and give us His kingdom not of this world, in our hearts. Because even though the world on a whole, has not changed, our hearts can be.

 

[morningstar2651]

"If it is one of the goals of religion to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in yet another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusions. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain is moved by profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far-reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious, in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualization of our understanding of life." -- Albert Einstein

 

[raffster]

Then I got to an age where I just thought, "Hmm. When you actually think about it, it becomes dead clear that there is no god.". That was my story, anyway.

Coming to the conclusion that there is no (G)od can sometimes be a healthy evaluation of what truth is. Questioning Truth is always better than having blind faith in almost anything but to come to an absolute conclusion that there is NO (G)od is an indication that you have stopped searching -- and that could be a problem.

Nobody but nobody can be CLEAR that something IS or IS not. If that were the case then humanity would have figured out the answer to everything...including that of Truth itself.

This very reality we call existence can be just a dream for all we care.

If god is real why make other religions? Having opposing religions has always been a bad thing! Terrorism, war and just fighting in general. Christianity has been fairly quiet recently in terms of jihad(holy war), though.

It sounds like you are accusing God of the reason why there are many religions. It is not God who made these religions -- man did. In man's quest for Truth and this thirst never satisfied, religion was born and evolved.

The existence of different religions is not bad per se. It is the followers (especially extreme fundamentalists) who have never learned how to be more tolerating or accepting of those whose views differ from theirs.

I sincerely believe that all the religions in this world, Islam included, aim for peace for all humanity. It is unfortunate that each group has their "weirdos" who just cannot accept the fact that not one group can make a claim that Truth belongs to them.

But only since about 200 years ago when christians said, "Hey, aren't we supposed to 'love thine enemy'?", at which point they droppped the Inquisition and settled down.

Those who carried out the Inquisition, while most of them were "Christians" do not represent the whole of Christianity at that time. Just like the fundamentalist Muslim groups who are mainly responsible for most of the suicide bombings, a certain faction of the group do not represent the group in its entirety. It is wrong to judge or condemn a specific religion or belief system just because some if its members decided to take matters on their own hands.

There are Christians who practice real Christianity. They are not famous or popular. These are the Christians who lead simple and humble lives, just as every Christian should. Unfortunately it is hard to find a real Christian these days.

Almost anybody can pick up the bible, make a claim that they were saved (or baptised) and identify themselves as Christians. It should be harder to qualify as a real Christian -- if think about it that way.

And I find that when you try to tell a christian that according to science, they're wrong they just go "But you must have faith.". Thats like believing the moon is made of cheese when science says its not.

Both sides of the spectrum (Religion<-------------->Science) aren't "there yet" to be able to really prove anything. If either science or religion has already found the answers to everything then either one or both of them would cease to exist. While science has come a long way, there are still so many things that it can't answer. Until then, man will always turn to religion for answers that science cannot prove.

Let me ask you something: Have you felt either hope or hopelessness before? Where does that "feeling" come from? Is "hope" something that science can reproduce?

And also... I think they make the debating section right at the bottom of the page in small letters so that not many christians will go here for the fear of losing disiples.

Christianity will always have its followers no matter what. Just like there will always be Starbucks customers. It is one of the largest religions in the world and it has continued to grow amidst adversity and much oppression.

C'mon prove me wrong!

There is no right or wrong. There is just "is".

 

[GodlessHeathen]

Coming to the conclusion that there is no (G)od can sometimes be a healthy evaluation of what truth is. Questioning Truth is always better than having blind faith in almost anything but to come to an absolute conclusion that there is NO (G)od is an indication that you have stopped searching -- and that could be a problem.

Nobody but nobody can be CLEAR that something IS or IS not. If that were the case then humanity would have figured out the answer to everything...including that of Truth itself.

This very reality we call existence can be just a dream for all we care.

I didn't mean to be that conclusive. I do firmly belive that there is no god (or gods). If I came across a fact that suggested that god could be real. Then I would seriously sonsider having faith.

Let me ask you something: Have you felt either hope or hopelessness before? Where does that "feeling" come from? Is "hope" something that science can reproduce?

I hope that one day science can produce a cure for cancer. Is that the kind of hope you mean?

Christianity will always have its followers no matter what. Just like there will always be Starbucks customers.

I read a book once, called Childhoods End, by Arthur C. Clark, where aliens land on Earth and started running the place. All very peaceful and politely, mind you. But when they land, religion pretty much goes out the door. You can't state that christianity will always have its followers. Once science discovers enough about the universe, I believe religion will die out.

It is one of the largest religions in the world and it has continued to grow amidst adversity and much oppression.

Compared to some religions, Christianity got off easy. Christianity was adopted by the most powerful nation at the time (Rome) and they pretty much spread it throughout the known world.

Judaism has had to go through enslavement by the Egyptians (debatable) through to Hitler and the Holocaust.

Islam is now almost hated worldwide because of a few bad eggs who spoil it for everyone.

Buddhism has been oppressed by the Hindu for centuries. I dont know the details but I have read about Hindu people burning Buddhist temples.

 

[SecretOfFatima]

While many people hang around this area in the forum i personally dont think this is the best place to try learn about particular faiths, but it certaintly gives an inside how other faiths work, including atheists itself, and how we disagree with each other, I'm glad i did not started here when I became a believer.

I got to say the assassination attempt of John Paul II on the anniversary of the first apparition of Fatima (13 May) and the death of Lucia on the 13 Feb 2005 were a few conclusive points for me to become a believer that God is still alive today and is for real, not just a myth or a dream.

EWTN is another good site to read about the true facts behind the Fatima apparitions.

Note about Fatima, also there are a series of people who are not in communion with the Holy Father and have other claims about the appartions of Fatima, one of them is father Grunner, if you need me to talk to you about him i will be very happy to show you his views, but my advise is for you to seek the works of God and not the works of the enemy who tries to destroy the light. The enemy will not take you to heaven, he is a liar.

One thing you should remember, that not everyone knows everything about life (i keep reminding my teenage son that he does not know everything about life, but he thinks he knows it all, for example), so some of us are not at the same level of understanding about some stuff, like true facts, because we have not fully been exposed to them, the same goes for discerning good or evil, for discerning love or hate, it all depends what you been exposed in your life and as life passes you, you gain more knowledge and become more wise about the facts of life (testerone probably also has a lot to do with the it) .

With God we know that he gave us free will, and is up to us to either follow him (who is the light) or not, he will not force us to do something, but there is times when what we do impacts other lifes... this can be phisically or spiritually, like when someone prays for another for example, even that someone may have pushed God out of their lives completly, but when you pray for someone, that does not mean we cannot ask God to guide them, to protect them and to bring them to ethernal salvation, i see the proof around myself, after having asked God for certain stuff for certain loved ones, i can see clearly how God has been guiding them, there is no point about trying to explain what this proof was but we could simply say that it has a lot to do with luck for those who do not believe in God while god tries to straight there lives, only if people would realise that God wants to help us, wants to make us good people, loving towards one another. If only I could show you how I hate sin, which pushes God away from us, and the punishment for sin is more sin until we repente and come back to God, if we do not repente we will get to a point where we think that good is evil and evil is good.

Let me tell you about a story, I remember hearing about a case in Italy where some guy came to the area where father Pio had his church, the taxi driver took him to the area and this guy was asking questions about why all the fuss going on around the area, and the taxi driver explained to him about Father Pio, his stigmata, the miracles and this guy laught and said something to the extend of cursing Father Pio hoping for him to die... and upon reaching the destination, he payed the fare, opened the door of the taxi, got out and dropped dead there and then... was this just coincidence? like many others I don't think so, you have to remember that Father Pio was a very very Holy person and he was in a state of grace but this person was not in a state of Grace...

... If I came across a fact that suggested that god could be real. Then I would seriously sonsider having faith...

 

[SecretOfFatima]

Let me add something from the bible that best describes where we all stand with God

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure of heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness&#8217; sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven.

I suspect all religions here would agree with these points

While many people hang around this area in the forum i personally dont think this is the best place to try learn about particular faiths, but it certaintly gives an inside how other faiths work, including atheists itself, and how we disagree with each other, I'm glad i did not started here when I became a believer.

I got to say the assassination attempt of John Paul II on the anniversary of the first apparition of Fatima (13 May) and the death of Lucia on the 13 Feb 2005 were a few conclusive points for me to become a believer that God is still alive today and is for real, not just a myth or a dream.

EWTN is another good site to read about the true facts behind the Fatima apparitions.

Note about Fatima, also there are a series of people who are not in communion with the Holy Father and have other claims about the appartions of Fatima, one of them is father Grunner, if you need me to talk to you about him i will be very happy to show you his views, but my advise is for you to seek the works of God and not the works of the enemy who tries to destroy the light. The enemy will not take you to heaven, he is a liar.

One thing you should remember, that not everyone knows everything about life (i keep reminding my teenage son that he does not know everything about life, but he thinks he knows it all, for example), so some of us are not at the same level of understanding about some stuff, like true facts, because we have not fully been exposed to them, the same goes for discerning good or evil, for discerning love or hate, it all depends what you been exposed in your life and as life passes you, you gain more knowledge and become more wise about the facts of life (testerone probably also has a lot to do with the it) .

With God we know that he gave us free will, and is up to us to either follow him (who is the light) or not, he will not force us to do something, but there is times when what we do impacts other lifes... this can be phisically or spiritually, like when someone prays for another for example, even that someone may have pushed God out of their lives completly, but when you pray for someone, that does not mean we cannot ask God to guide them, to protect them and to bring them to ethernal salvation, i see the proof around myself, after having asked God for certain stuff for certain loved ones, i can see clearly how God has been guiding them, there is no point about trying to explain what this proof was but we could simply say that it has a lot to do with luck for those who do not believe in God while god tries to straight there lives, only if people would realise that God wants to help us, wants to make us good people, loving towards one another. If only I could show you how I hate sin, which pushes God away from us, and the punishment for sin is more sin until we repente and come back to God, if we do not repente we will get to a point where we think that good is evil and evil is good.

Let me tell you about a story, I remember hearing about a case in Italy where some guy came to the area where father Pio had his church, the taxi driver took him to the area and this guy was asking questions about why all the fuss going on around the area, and the taxi driver explained to him about Father Pio, his stigmata, the miracles and this guy laught and said something to the extend of cursing Father Pio hoping for him to die... and upon reaching the destination, he payed the fare, opened the door of the taxi, got out and dropped dead there and then... was this just coincidence? like many others I don't think so, you have to remember that Father Pio was a very very Holy person and he was in a state of grace but this person was not in a state of Grace...