God is in complete control.

[Hammster]

The fun continues.


I agree. But Calvinism, which relies on its own echo chamber, argues for conflating Declaring and Causing (as seen in Posts 11), so it is worth my giving the argument.

Let me explain how not acting can also be considered causing. Let’s say that I don’t testify to a murder and the wrong man is convicted. Did I cause that by not testifying? Or let’s say I don’t feed my dog and she starves to death. Did I cause that that?

God doesn’t need to “act” in order to cause something to happen. But regardless, as scripture states

You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

You make him to rule over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,
— Psalm 8:6

There is one exception, though.

For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
— 1 Corinthians 15:27

 

[Hammster]

I believe the control doctrine is the product of lazy thinking and lazy faith. It is just easier to blame God for everything in a misguided attempt to rationalize a warped kind of Glory for Him. Instead of having faith in a good God and believing God will save us and deliver us from every evil. it is just easier to ascribe those evils to Him and sit back and "faithfully" endure the evil. In this the person enduring the pain is gloried as being oh-so faithful and religious, while God is portrayed an evil monster. What would we think of an earthly parent that did that? What if a father took his kids out in the yard and beat them with a stick, expecting his children to thank him for it and thereby derive glory in their suffering and their willingness to suffer for him. Would we praise such a father for his actions? I think not.
Jesus came to show us the exact image of the Father. Never did Jesus show us anything approaching that sort of evil.

You were doing so well by not being insulting. That didn’t seem to last.

 

[Hammster]

Interesting, though, that I have multiple posts that actually state or imply that God is in complete control. I haven’t seen the ones that say He isn’t.

 

[John Mullally]

I believe the control doctrine is the product of lazy thinking and lazy faith. It is just easier to blame God for everything in a misguided attempt to rationalize a warped kind of Glory for Him. Instead of having faith in a good God and believing God will save us and deliver us from every evil. it is just easier to ascribe those evils to Him and sit back and "faithfully" endure the evil. In this the person enduring the pain is gloried as being oh-so faithful and religious, while God is portrayed an evil monster. What would we think of an earthly parent that did that? What if a father took his kids out in the yard and beat them with a stick, expecting his children to thank him for it and thereby derive glory in their suffering and their willingness to suffer for him. Would we praise such a father for his actions? I think not.
Jesus came to show us the exact image of the Father. Never did Jesus show us anything approaching that sort of evil.

Calvin sees a self-seeking God giving glory to Himself by predisposing some to eternal Hell before they are born (see his quote below) - its oh well, sucks to be you. This blames God for putting some people being in hell in order to give glory to himself. Fortunately it is not scripture - it is Calvin's doctrine. The word of God says that God is love (1 John 8:16) and describes love (1 Corinthians 13) as being kind and not self-seeking. And yet Calvin put others to death that disagreed with him thinking he was doing God a favor (John 16:1-4).

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

The second half of Romans 5:18 says that the "free gift of God came upon all men unto justification of life". All men here includes everyone, not just "the elect". 1 Timothy 4:10 agrees in that Paul says that God is the Savior of all men. How can it be that many people are not saved? Other scripture, like John 3:14-15, answers this question as it indicates that salvation is received through faith. The fact that some are not saved is not with the gift giver (God), it is with people who do not qualify to receive God's gift through faith.

Since Jesus took upon Himself the “sin of the world,” (John 1:29), His atonement is therefore available to all, though is only applied whenever people place their faith in Him, just like His illustration at John 3:14-15 of Numbers 21:6-9 shows. Before a person looked upon the serpent on a standard, was anyone healed? Before a person believes in Jesus, is anyone saved? God Himself established the condition, but Calvinists seek to revise God’s condition to imply that the atonement itself completes a transaction, in which the atonement itself does something to the individual which produces faith.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”​

​

Number 21:6 Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.​

 

[Hammster]

…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

That’s from Romans 9.

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
— Romans 9:15-24

 

[SavedByGrace3]

A few interesting facts:
1. The word "control" cannot be found in the KJV of the Bible.
2. The word "sovereign" cannot be found in the KJV of the Bible.

Odd that the most powerful concepts in many people's faith cannot be found in scripture.

The ISV does have the word control, and look what it says:
1 John 5:19
19. We know that we are from God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Of course, as we have all been saying, God is sovereign and can do what He wants, including overrule "the evil one" if He desires. But it says what it says. If we were to have a quiz, how would you answer "who is controlling the whole world?" I suspect there would be a lot of hem - hawing and long explanations.

So who is the god of this world?
More scripture:
2 Corinthians 4:4
4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of
the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

We could go on and on. I have a 400 page book that completely refutes the "God is completely controlling everything" theory.
Sometimes I hesitate speaking along these lines. Some people have to believe along these lines. Their faith and doctrine is based on these ideas. I would not want to upend their faith, confused as it is.

 

[Hammster]

A few interesting facts:
1. The word "control" cannot be found in the KJV of the Bible.
2. The word "sovereign" cannot be found in the KJV of the Bible.

Odd that the most powerful concepts in many people's faith cannot be found in scripture.

The ISV does have the word control, and look what it says:
1 John 5:19
19. We know that we are from God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Of course, as we have all been saying, God is sovereign and can do what He wants, including overrule "the evil one" if He desires. But it says what it says. If we were to have a quiz, how would you answer "who is controlling the whole world?" I suspect there would be a lot of hem - hawing and long explanations.

So who is the god of this world?
More scripture:
2 Corinthians 4:4
4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of
the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

We could go on and on. I have a 400 page book that completely refutes the "God is completely controlling everything" theory.
Sometimes I hesitate speaking along these lines. Some people have to believe along these lines. Their faith and doctrine is based on these ideas. I would not want to upend their faith, confused as it is.

You almost made it without an insult. Dang.

 

[Hammster]

Sovereignty. Control. We don’t need the words to know it’s there. Kinda like “Trinity”.

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
— Matthew 28:18

“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
— Daniel 7:13-14

For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
— Romans 14:9

which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
— Ephesians 1:20-22

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
— Philippians 2:9-10

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
— Colossians 2:9-10

“But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”
— Psalm 2:6

‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
‘You shall break them with a rod of iron,
You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”
— Psalm 2:8-9

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
— Psalm 45:6

You make him to rule over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,
— Psalm 8:6

For the kingdom is the Lord’s
And He rules over the nations.
— Psalm 22:28

The Lord has established His throne in the heavens,
And His sovereignty rules over all.
— Psalm 103:19

Etc, etc

 

[SavedByGrace3]

You almost made it without an insult. Dang.

It is a difficult thing sometimes to relate the truth in such a way that it cannot be misunderstood. It is blunt, and often pointed.
But it is not always intended to be mean or cruel. It may be perceived that way by the hearer, especially if they are pricked by it.
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Yes they are being blunt. But perhaps there is an element of concern in their words, and not hurt. And they just want people to get the point.
But I am through here. Thanks to all for their input.
Peace

 

[Hammster]

It is a difficult thing sometimes to relate the truth in such a way that it cannot be misunderstood. It is blunt, and often pointed.
But it is not always intended to be mean or cruel. It may be perceived that way by the hearer, especially if they are pricked by it.
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Yes they are being blunt. But perhaps there is an element of concern in their words, and not hurt. And they just want people to get the point.
But I am through here. Thanks to all for their input.
Peace

You just had to get one more dig in.

 

[John Mullally]

Interesting, though, that I have multiple posts that actually state or imply that God is in complete control. I haven’t seen the ones that say He isn’t.

This thread is more about the nature of God than God being in control (which is not argued). Calvinists assume that God being in control means that God "decrees" man's every action before hand. Non-Calvinists assume that God can be in control and achieve His objectives without making puppets out of us and controlling our every action. In other words, the Bible does not teach fatalism, like Islam.

Your terse posts are not being ignored. Where is your response to my Post 16?

Of course God is in control, but that does not mean that He chooses to be puppet-master decreeing man's every action (per Calvinist doctrine). Imagine God giving man free-will. Psalm 115:16 says that God gave the earth to man. Given that God gave earth to man, how does man not have a free will. Notice that God had to send Jesus as a man to earth to redeem man,

 

[John Mullally]

Sovereignty. Control. We don’t need the words to know it’s there. Kinda like “Trinity”.

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
— Matthew 28:18

“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
— Daniel 7:13-14

For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
— Romans 14:9

which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
— Ephesians 1:20-22

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
— Philippians 2:9-10

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
— Colossians 2:9-10

“But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”
— Psalm 2:6

‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
‘You shall break them with a rod of iron,
You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”
— Psalm 2:8-9

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
— Psalm 45:6

You make him to rule over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,
— Psalm 8:6

For the kingdom is the Lord’s
And He rules over the nations.
— Psalm 22:28

The Lord has established His throne in the heavens,
And His sovereignty rules over all.
— Psalm 103:19

Etc, etc

None of the scriptures you quoted indicate that God controls man's will.

You almost made it without an insult. Dang.

God judges.

 

[Hammster]

This thread is more about the nature of God than God being in control (which is not argued). Calvinists assume that God being in control means that God "decrees" man's every action before hand. Non-Calvinists assume that God can be in control and achieve His objectives without making puppets out of us and controlling our every action. In other words, the Bible does not teach fatalism, like Islam.

Your terse posts are not being ignored. Where is your response to my Post 16?

Of course God is in control, but that does not mean that He chooses to be puppet-master decreeing man's every action (per Calvinist doctrine). Imagine God giving man free-will. Psalm 115:16 says that God gave the earth to man. Given that God gave earth to man, how does man not have a free will. Notice that God had to send Jesus as a man to earth to redeem man,

In both the old and New Testaments, we are told to take dominion. In the NT, we are told to do that by Christ’s authority. So while we may be obedient to this command, who is actually in control?

 

[Hammster]

None of the scriptures you quoted indicate that God controls man's will.

They all do.

 

[John Mullally]

None of the scriptures you quoted indicate that God controls man's will.

They all do.

This 3-word response would be great if you were God giving a word of wisdom - as we would be hanging on your every word. But since you are not God and since none of what you have said talks about God controlling man's will, how about explaining yourself in depth.

Just quoting a number of vanilla verses (that do not explicitly make your point) without explaining how it fits into your argument does not do the rest of us any good. Again, none of the scriptures you quoted on this thread indicate that God controls man's will. None of the scriptures you quoted indicate that God controls man's will. God can declare the end from the beginning without control man's will.

 

[Hammster]

This 3-word response would be great if you were God giving a word of wisdom - as we would be hanging on your every word. But since you are not God and since none of what you have said talks about God controlling man's will, how about explaining yourself in depth.

Just quoting a number of vanilla verses (that do not explicitly make your point) without explaining how it fits into your argument does not do the rest of us any good. Again, none of the scriptures you quoted on this thread indicate that God controls man's will. None of the scriptures you quoted indicate that God controls man's will. God can declare the end from the beginning without control man's will.

When you call scripture “vanilla” there’s not much I care to discuss with you.

 

[John Mullally]

When you call scripture “vanilla” there’s not much I care to discuss with you.

Post 35 asks you to explain yourself in depth. You are unwilling to do so.

Scripture is vanilla when it does not relate to argument. When you quote from scripture, it is helpful to relate it to an argument. That is much preferred from the point of convincing others and conversely from your adversaries (in your case non-Calvinist Evangelicals) identifying flaws in your argument.

 

[Hammster]

Post 35 asks you to explain yourself in depth. You are unwilling to do so. God sees all.

You rarely care to discuss anything in depth. You deliver a bunch of one-liners without any explanation other than curtly dismissing the other person as wrong. Perhaps you don't have time to explain - but it would help if you did.

Scripture is vanilla when it idoes not relate to argument. When you quote from scripture, it is helpful when you relate it to an argument. That is much preferred from the point of convincing others and conversely from your adversaries (in your case non-Calvinist Evangelicals) identifying flaws in your argument.

Here is all my one-liners from this thread.

But our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever He pleases.
— Psalm 115:3

Whatever the Lord pleases, He does,
In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.
— Psalm 135:6

“All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’
— Daniel 4:35

“I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
— Job 42:2

It’s established that God does whatever He pleases. And that His will cannot be thwarted. So God not intervening in a certain situation is still an active choice on His part, and just because we cannot see the outcome of that choice doesn’t mean that there’s no implication.

Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
— Isaiah 46:10

He has declared all things, from beginning to end. This means everything is in His control.

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.
— James 4:13-14

This is a warning against presuming that God isn’t in complete control.

Except where it does.

You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
— Hebrews 2:8

Let me explain how not acting can also be considered causing. Let’s say that I don’t testify to a murder and the wrong man is convicted. Did I cause that by not testifying? Or let’s say I don’t feed my dog and she starves to death. Did I cause that that?

God doesn’t need to “act” in order to cause something to happen. But regardless, as scripture states

You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

You make him to rule over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,
— Psalm 8:6

There is one exception, though.

For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
— 1 Corinthians 15:27

Sovereignty. Control. We don’t need the words to know it’s there. Kinda like “Trinity”.

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
— Matthew 28:18

“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
— Daniel 7:13-14

For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
— Romans 14:9

which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
— Ephesians 1:20-22

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
— Philippians 2:9-10

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
— Colossians 2:9-10

“But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”
— Psalm 2:6

‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
‘You shall break them with a rod of iron,
You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”
— Psalm 2:8-9

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
— Psalm 45:6

You make him to rule over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,
— Psalm 8:6

For the kingdom is the Lord’s
And He rules over the nations.
— Psalm 22:28

The Lord has established His throne in the heavens,
And His sovereignty rules over all.
— Psalm 103:19

Etc, etc

In both the old and New Testaments, we are told to take dominion. In the NT, we are told to do that by Christ’s authority. So while we may be obedient to this command, who is actually in control?

Care to try again?

 

[John Mullally]

Here is all my one-liners from this thread.

Care to try again?

Those aren't the one-liners. Its great that most of your responses on this thread are not one-liners. As I stated in Post 37, you frequently don't relate your scripture quotes to an explanatory argument that is more than a few words. Its more influential to give a more lengthy explanation. The pithy explanations only work well if you walk on water.

After your complaining about the lack of responses to your posts (in Post 23), I remind you for the third time that I await your response to my Post 16.

 

[Hammster]

Those aren't the one-liners. Its great that most of your responses on this thread are not one-liners. As I stated in Post 37, you frequently don't relate your scripture quotes to an explanatory argument that is more than a few words. Its more influential to give a more lengthy explanation. The pithy explanations only work well if you walk on water.

After your complaining about the lack of responses to your posts (in Post 23), I remind you for the third time that I await your response to my Post 16.

I post like I talk to people in person, in most instances. In other words, when discussing theology, I like the back and forth dialogue. We don’t try to eat the elephant in one bite. So sometimes it’s just one line to try to challenge what what said. I’m not going to change that for you.