God is Good

[Tone]

I still don't understand what you are saying in regards to evil not being required for faith

Came across this on another user's (@SteveIndy) site:

"How do we find our way back to God? How do we determine good from evil, and truth from error?

At this point, God steps in. In our minds, we would reason that the best thing for God to do would be to just kick the Devil out of the Garden, but the truth is just the opposite; God kicks us out and gives us special instructions on how to distinguish the sound of His “horn,” or voice. Faith, trust, and belief are key components of those instructions."
Read more: IndyWatchman

May be helpful.

 

[cvanwey]

The threshold is not death, it is Messiah:

John 11:25
"25 Jesus said to her,“I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. "

This kinda drives my entire point. Belief in Jesus, as the gateway to heaven, is what is required. The existence of sin is unnecessary.

 

[Tone]

This kinda drives my entire point. Belief in Jesus, as the gateway to heaven, is what is required. The existence of sin is unnecessary.

I still don't get what you are saying.

 

[Tone]

This kinda drives my entire point. Belief in Jesus, as the gateway to heaven, is what is required. The existence of sin is unnecessary.

You mean why the waves (noise)? Why the fear (confusion)? Because, these things lead us lowly ones...up to eternity...

Consider the Herding dog - Wikipedia's.


Some questions to consider:

Did Eve first go to the tree to be like God, or just because she was hungry...or just curious about such a fruit tree?

What would a glorified body desire?

Is the whole question about evil to do with appetite?

Illusion keeps us distracted and seemingly content. Is desire the serpent's channel?

 

[cvanwey]

I still don't get what you are saying.

I'm going specifically upon the verse you provided, which states admission to heaven is directed by belief, faith, and a relationship with Christ. Sin is like parsley on a served dinner plate. It does not matter if it is present or not. It serves no real purpose. Furthermore, sin will be committed by all, according to God, whether you are a believer or not. Sin, is not necessary. The defining factor for admittance to heaven, has NOTHING to do with how much you do or don't sin. It has to do with belief and relationship, as provided in your Bible verse. God already knows everyone will sin, while on earth. The deciding factor to determine your eternal path is basically beginning with belief. All believers will sin, up until the point of their natural death.

 

[Tone]

I'm going specifically upon the verse you provided, which states admission to heaven is directed by belief, faith, and a relationship with Christ. Sin is like parsley on a served dinner plate. It does not matter if it is present or not. It serves no real purpose. Furthermore, sin will be committed by all, according to God, whether you are a believer or not. Sin, is not necessary. The defining factor for admittance to heaven, has NOTHING to do with how much you do or don't sin. It has to do with belief and relationship, as provided in your Bible verse. God already knows everyone will sin, while on earth. The deciding factor to determine your eternal path is basically beginning with belief. All believers will sin, up until the point of their natural death.

But the difference is in the war...one is fighting with (as an ally) evil and the other is going down swinging against evil.


*Why do we have doctors and such that fight against disease?

 

[Tone]

But the difference is in the war...one is fighting with (as an ally) evil and the other is going down swinging against evil.


*Why do we have doctors and such that fight against disease?

So if you're neutral, you're still, technically, an ally to what is destroying.


*“Not only will we have to repent for the sins of bad people; but we also will have to repent for the appalling silence of good people.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.
tags: acquiescence

 

[cvanwey]

But the difference is in the war...one is fighting with (as an ally) evil and the other is going down swinging against evil.


*Why do we have doctors and such that fight against disease?

None of this addresses my observation. You, yourself, provided a verses which seems to drive home the way/path to heaven, or a permanent relationship with Christ. Which is, belief and acceptance. Sin is nothing more than a by-product, filler, or background music. If God was a 'loving' God, and sin seems to serve no real purpose, seems odd that God would not instead just contain it, like He apparently does for the ones in hell.

 

[Chriliman]

Second request: 'Also, did you watch the video? What say you about this conclusion? Do you agree?'

Yes I did watch it and for the most part I think I agree, but am open to other views that may reveal errors.

Also, does sin exist in heaven or not?

It did exist, which why 1/3 of angels were cast out and now it doesn’t exist, but may still be possible.

 

[cvanwey]

Yes I did watch it and for the most part I think I agree, but am open to other views that may reveal errors.

Kool

It did exist, which why 1/3 of angels were cast out and now it doesn’t exist, but may still be possible.

But you see, this appears to pose a very large 'issue.' If sin exists in heaven, how can this work? If sin no longer exists in heaven, we have a huge can of worms to address. So which conundrum would you like to tackle? (I know this kinda does not address the three original points, but I'm following this line of thought organically).

1). Sin still may exist in heaven, or...
2). No one can sin in heaven?

 

[Tone]

1). Sin still may exist in heaven, or...
2). No one can sin in heaven?

You know that there are more than one heavens right?

 

[Chriliman]

Kool



But you see, this appears to pose a very large 'issue.' If sin exists in heaven, how can this work? If sin no longer exists in heaven, we have a huge can of worms to address. So which conundrum would you like to tackle? (I know this kinda does not address the three original points, but I'm following this line of thought organically).

1). Sin still may exist in heaven, or...
2). No one can sin in heaven?

If by point 1 you mean sin is possible in heaven then yes, I agree. It’s also possible sin will never exist again in heaven.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

No, I’m saying God allows for the possibility of Satan’s evil will for the sake of eternal freedom and love. Again, if God did not allow for the possibility of Satan’s(anyone’s) evil will then true freedom and love would not be possible.

If we allow for the possibility of Satan's (or anyone's) evil for eternal freedom and love, then doesn't that mean there will be evil in heaven? How will that work?

 

[cvanwey]

If we allow for the possibility of Satan's (or anyone's) evil for eternal freedom and love, then doesn't that mean there will be evil in heaven? How will that work?

One of the best responses I've seen, thus far, came from @Eight Foot Manchild I believe. I'll paraphrase...

'Assuming Heaven is a sinless place, no one goes to heaven. If you will no longer have the urge to sin in heaven, you are no longer the same person.' There may have been more... I don't remember.

 

[Chriliman]

If we allow for the possibility of Satan's (or anyone's) evil for eternal freedom and love, then doesn't that mean there will be evil in heaven? How will that work?

It just means evil is possible in heaven, but may never exist again, given what we’ve learned from when it did exist and was cast out in the past.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

It just means evil is possible in heaven, but may never exist again, given what we’ve learned from when it did exist and was cast out in the past.

If an event is possible, and if the available time for it to occur is infinite, then its occurrence is absolutely inevitable.

If an event never happens over the course of an eternity, then that event must be impossible.

So either you will sin in heaven (inevitably), or else you won't be able to do so. You must accept this dilemma or else challenge all of mathematics. Assuming you accept mathematics, which horn of the dilemma do you think is correct?

 

[Chriliman]

If an event is possible, and if the available time for it to occur is infinite, then its occurrence is absolutely inevitable.

If an event never happens over the course of an eternity, then that event must be impossible.

So either you will sin in heaven (inevitably), or else you won't be able to do so. You must accept this dilemma or else challenge all of mathematics. Assuming you accept mathematics, which horn of the dilemma do you think is correct?

Yes, sin already happened in heaven and was cast out. Now there are measures put in place to prevent it from happening again, so you may be right, it may be impossible to sin in heaven now.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Yes, sin already happened in heaven and was cast out. Now there are measures put in place to prevent it from happening again, so you may be right, it may be impossible to sin in heaven now.

Then without the possibility for evil, isn't there no freedom or love?

 

[Chriliman]

Then without the possibility for evil, isn't there no freedom or love?

Not necessarily since it was possible. If evil was never possible then yes freedom and love would never be possible.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Not necessarily since it was possible. If evil was never possible then yes freedom and love would never be possible.

That makes no sense. But if that is your reasoning, why didn't God just allow evil to exist for a microsecond and then eliminate it? Why allow it to persist for billions of years in a world where nearly every living thing with a central nervous system dies in terror and agony?