God is Good

[Tone]

If salvation is based upon belief and a relationship, sin is just a background by-product, in which does not really seem necessary. Thus, why would God allow for such, and/or not contain as such, when it's not necessary or relevant?

It's a little more involved than a string of abstract words. Belief is more than just intellectual assent, it is a working out (existential) of dealing with the condition of the world around us...a world permeated with sin. The real power of it is already broken, yet, as we are living out a temporal "scene",if you will, a residue remains...like a thrashing rattler snake with its head sliced off...it can still kill you if you lose sight of it...it's best to bury the head and watch the body spasm. Again, it's a time thing and from our perspective, it is difficult to judge.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

God created angels in heaven with the ability to possibly disobey him. So yes, Heaven was devoid of evil, but that doesn’t mean evil was impossible.

If evil is not impossible in heaven, then people can do evil in heaven. And if people do evil in heaven, then it isn't heaven any more, is it? It's just an extension of the sinful world we know, populated by sinful, fallible human beings capable of screwing it up just as much as they do this world.
In fact, is evil is possible in heaven, how is it different from Earth?

Perhaps God and/or angels intervene directly in heaven to prevent people from being sinful, or to protect people from the sinfulness of people? Like a sort of super-police?
In which case, why can't God to that on earth here?

Or perhaps you think nobody would sin in heaven, even if they could, because "sinful" people wouldn't make it to heaven? But if the possibility of sin is in them, can we rule it out?

 

[cvanwey]

from our perspective, it is difficult to judge.

Then just say this.

But I find it curious... Do you deem such a situation 'difficult', because the possible conclusion I'm drawing appears irreconcilable, if true?

Which is, the continued allowed existence of 'evil' is irrelevant, when compared to the necessary criteria? I.E. Belief, faith, and repent of original sin...

 

[Tone]

Which is, the continued allowed existence of 'evil' is irrelevant, when compared to the necessary criteria? I.E. Belief, faith, and repent of original sin...

I gave the illustration in my previous post to highlight a very important aspect (or lack thereof) of your viewpoint, namely, time. So, when you say "continued allowed existence of 'evil'",it is necessary to understand that it is (and has been for some time now) in great decline. This is displayed in the fact that,if evil were to have its way, the human race would have already been completely destroyed and, thereby, the entire earth laid waste.

*So, with no humans existing, what use is belief and faith?

 

[cvanwey]

I gave the illustration in my previous post to highlight a very important aspect (or lack thereof) of your viewpoint, namely, time. So, when you say "continued allowed existence of 'evil'",it is necessary to understand that it is (and has been for some time now) in great decline. This is displayed in the fact that,if evil were to have its way, the human race would have already been completely destroyed and, thereby, the entire earth laid waste.

*So, with no humans existing, what use is belief and faith?

With no other agents/beings/etc besides God Himself, there exists no 'morality' period, i.e. the 'good', the 'bad', the 'ugly'. God would instead be a lone agent, which rules over His lifeless domain. Really any conceivable concept of 'morality' may require interaction between two or more parties. One capable moral agent, ruling over a host of non-capable moral objects, does not make for any viable 'moral' pretense. God could not tell a rock it is immoral anymore than a human, whom lives in remote woods alone, could tell a rock it's immoral. Time is irrelevant as well. At some point, if 'evil' is removed, such agents still have the ability to apply a moral sense.

Thus, I again ask, slightly restated....

What be the reason to continue allowing for 'evil', in spite of the fact 'evil' plays no part in human salvation (i.e.) belief, relationship, and atonement of original sin? Both 'evil' and 'time' appear irrelevant.

 

[Tone]

What be the reason to continue allowing for 'evil', in spite of the fact 'evil' plays no part in human salvation (i.e.) belief, relationship, and atonement of original sin? Both 'evil' and 'time' appear irrelevant.

Evil is not allowed.

 

[cvanwey]

Evil is not allowed.

If 'evil' is not allowed....

Then why will hell exist eternal?

If this were true, you would also have to reconcile that postmortem humans, whom ascend to heaven for eternity, are stripped of their free will.

Again, going back to the OP, containment seems more plausible, as a viable solution to the 'problem'.

 

[Tone]

If 'evil' is not allowed....

Then why will hell exist eternal?

If this were true, you would also have to reconcile that postmortem humans, whom ascend to heaven for eternity, are stripped of their free will.

Again, going back to the OP, containment seems more plausible, as a viable solution to the 'problem'.

Revelation 20:14
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

 

[cvanwey]

Revelation 20:14
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Why Is Hell Eternal?

I again ask....

If evil is not allowed, as you say...

Why is hell forever?

Wouldn't this mean free will does not exist in heaven?

Again, containment appears a more viable method to deal with 'evil'. As stated prior, the existence of 'evil' appears irrelevant, in regards to the tents of Christianity (belief, relationship, faith). Evil is nothing more that the parsley on the dinner plate. Take it away, and nothing changed. Thus, the question remains, why allow the evil and not contain it?

 

[Tone]

Why Is Hell Eternal?

I again ask....

If evil is not allowed, as you say...

Why is hell forever?

Wouldn't this mean free will does not exist in heaven?

Again, containment appears a more viable method to deal with 'evil'. As stated prior, the existence of 'evil' appears irrelevant, in regards to the tents of Christianity (belief, relationship, faith). Evil is nothing more that the parsley on the dinner plate. Take it away, and nothing changed. Thus, the question remains, why allow the evil and not contain it?

You think that link will convince me that the Scripture I posted is incorrect? Hell has an end.

 

[cvanwey]

You think that link will convince me that the Scripture I posted is incorrect? Hell has an end.

Jude 1:7

 

[Tone]

Jude 1:7

Have you looked it up in the original language and found the corresponding Hebrew words?

Jude 1:7
"7In like manner,Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them,who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire."

That'll start you off!

 

[cvanwey]

Have you looked it up in the original language and found the corresponding Hebrew words?

Jude 1:7
"7In like manner,Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them,who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire."

That'll start you off!

It would appear you are getting a little testy.

Here's a simple observation.... If the Bible was clear in it's Word, you would not have many people, whom share the same faith as you, whom disagree on this particular conclusion. Just as many people can use the Bible to justify their conclusion, that hell is eternal, you assert, it is not. Case and point, the first link given from christianity.com

I'll lay the first question to rest, as I can see there will be absolutely no resolve here; (we disagree)...

But I still ask of the second question...

If evil is no longer allowed, then wouldn't that mean you do not have free will in heaven?

 

[Tone]

you, whom disagree on this particular conclusion.

Actually, I lean more towards not fully knowing...I was kind of hoping this discussion of it would lead to more understanding, either way.

If evil is no longer allowed, then wouldn't that mean you do not have free will in heaven?

I understand free will to be the condition that Adam and Eve were in before "the fall". But, since then, every person born into this world has a captive will...a will that is not free to do what is truly good, but rather is bound to do evil. So, with this understanding, I believe that,even now, as a believer my will is becoming more and more conformed into His image, i.e., free from all evil. So, in the new heavens and the new earth, yes, we will truly have free will; no longer captive to evil.

 

[cvanwey]

Actually, I lean more towards not fully knowing...I was kind of hoping this discussion of it would lead to more understanding, either way.

You could have fooled me. It seems your notion is that evil is temporary. That hell is temporary. Your notion is also that humans dwell in a temporal state, and that time is irrelevant.

If we don't agree on the premises, then we will most likely go nowhere, on this specific subject matter.

Thus, how about trying the other questions in the OP: (Now tailored specifically for you, after we have got some data established):

1. Is whatever God says considered 'good'? How do you know?

3. If sin is a by-product, as the path to heaven is instead belief, faith, and relationship, why is 'evil' even necessary in the current temporal existence for humans? Seems like nothing more than parsley on a restaurant dinner plate....

I understand free will to be the condition that Adam and Eve were in before "the fall". But, since then, every person born into this world has a captive will...a will that is not free to do what is truly good, but rather is bound to do evil. So, with this understanding, I believe that,even now, as a believer my will is becoming more and more conformed into His image, i.e., free from all evil. So, in the new heavens and the new earth, yes, we will truly have free will; no longer captive to evil.

Even if everything you stated were true, how would this work with a new believer, whom becomes an earnest Christian soon before dying? Do they have the ability to sin in heaven? Because if no one has the ability to sin in heaven, then there exists no prior point of a temporal 'heaven-less' state. Furthermore, if no one, once crossing the threshold of earth to heaven, no longer has the desire to sin, then you are no longer your former self. You are then someone else. And if everyone transforms anew, while crossing this threshold, then there seems no need for any trial or tests of any kind. Everyone should go to heaven.

Ergo, all go to heaven, as all will sin prior to crossing this divide, and will no longer sin postmortem.

 

[Tone]

evil is temporary. That hell is temporary.

Yeah, I believe these are temporary for us who believe.

1. Is whatever God says considered 'good'? How do you know?

Whatever the Creator says to His children is good and for our good. Because I trust it is so, but this took my life experience to know.

If sin is a by-product, as the path to heaven is instead belief, faith, and relationship, why is 'evil' even necessary in the current temporal existence for humans? Seems like nothing more than parsley on a restaurant dinner plate....

I don't know why it would be "necessary"...it is noise that attempts to interfere with His Voice.

Even if everything you stated were true, how would this work with a new believer, whom becomes an earnest Christian soon before dying?

The captive is set free, Luke 4:18

"18“The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, "

Do they have the ability to sin in heaven?

Romans 8:15
"15For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of son ship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” "

Revelation 21:4
"4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Because if no one has the ability to sin in heaven, then there exists no prior point of a temporal 'heaven-less' state.

You mean, will it be like Adam and Eve before the fall, again? No, I believe it will be something entirely new, since this whole cosmic drama would have unfolded.

1 Peter 1:12
"12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they foretold the things now announced by those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven.Even angels long to look into these things."

Hebrews 12:1
"1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off every encumbrance and the sin that so easily entangles,and let us run with endurance the race set out for us."

Furthermore, if no one, once crossing the threshold of earth to heaven, no longer has the desire to sin, then you are no longer your former self. You are then someone else.

True.

2 Corinthians 5:17
"17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!"

John 17
"21 that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one— 23 I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me 24 Father, I want those You have given Me to be with Me where I am, that they may see the glory You gave Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world."

And if everyone transforms anew, while crossing this threshold, then there seems no need for any trial or tests if any kind. Everyone should go to heaven.

Everyone who crosses "this threshold"...yes.

John 10:9
"8 All who came before Me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the gate.If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and have it in all its fullness."

I kid you not, this song came on as I pasted this last verse ^ *chills*!:

 

[Tone]

Dweller on the Threshold

Van Morrison
I'm a dweller on the threshold
And I'm waiting at the door
And I'm standing in the darkness
I don't want to wait no more
I have seen without perceiving
I have been another man
Let me pierce the realm of glamor
So I know just what I am
I'm a dweller on the threshold
And I'm waiting at the door
And I'm standing in the darkness
I don't want to wait no more
Feel the angel of the present
In the mighty crystal fire
Lift me up consume my darkness
Let me travel even higher
I'm a dweller on the threshold
As I cross the burning ground
Let me go down to the water
Watch the great illusion drown
I'm a dweller on the threshold
And I'm waiting at the door
And I'm standing in the darkness
I don't want to wait no more
I'm gonna turn and face the music
The music of the spheres
Lift me up consume my darkness
When the midnight disappears
I will walk out of the darkness
And I'll walk into the light
And I'll sing the song of ages
And the dawn will end the night
I'm a dweller on the threshold
And I'm waiting at the door
And I'm standing in the darkness
I don't want to wait no more
I'm a dweller on the threshold
And I cross some burning ground
And I'll go down to the water
Let the great illusion drown
I'm a dweller on the threshold
And I'm waiting at the door
And I'm standing in the darkness
I don't want to wait no more
I'm a dweller on the threshold
Dweller on the threshold
I'm a dweller on the threshold
I'm a dweller on the threshold
Songwriters: Hugh Dermot Murphy / Van Morrison
Dweller on the Threshold lyrics © BMG Rights Management

 

[cvanwey]

Whatever the Creator says to His children is good and for our good. Because I trust it is so, but this took my life experience to know.

Assuming you admit your senses are indeed fallible, then how do you know you are not wrong? Can trust be broken?

Is it possible, that if God is the author of the Bible, He is simply going to tell humans He is good?

I would 'assume' that, when reading specific passages commanded within the Bible, it might appear difficult to reconcile them as 'good' acts, without rationalization and/or justification...?

I don't know why it would be "necessary"...it is noise that attempts to interfere with His Voice.

Are you saying God allows 'evil' as noise in this temporal world, as a means to create distraction, to test the faith of His subjects? The noise is not necessary, as belief in an agent, having faith in an agent, and having a relationship with an agent, does not require the present of 'evil'. 'Evil' is completely disconnected. Thus, seems odd that God would not simply eradicate it, as it seems to do nothing more than to cause temporary human suffering, for no real reason.

The captive is set free, Luke 4:18

"18“The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, "

Romans 8:15
"15For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of son ship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” "

Revelation 21:4
"4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.”



You mean, will it be like Adam and Eve before the fall, again? No, I believe it will be something entirely new, since this whole cosmic drama would have unfolded.

1 Peter 1:12
"12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they foretold the things now announced by those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven.Even angels long to look into these things."

Hebrews 12:1
"1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off every encumbrance and the sin that so easily entangles,and let us run with endurance the race set out for us."

True.

2 Corinthians 5:17
"17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!"

John 17
"21 that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one— 23 I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me 24 Father, I want those You have given Me to be with Me where I am, that they may see the glory You gave Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world."

Everyone who crosses "this threshold"...yes.

John 10:9
"8 All who came before Me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the gate.If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and have it in all its fullness."

I kid you not, this song came on as I pasted this last verse ^ *chills*!:

Ergo, all should be allowed in heaven, as all will sin prior to crossing this divide, and none will sin postmortem; once anyone passed this threshold. Again, sin appears irrelevant...

1. It is nothing more than background noise, or dinner plate parsley. Thus, allowing it and not containing it appears odd.
2. No one is capable of sinning postmortem, as you are made anew upon crossing the death threshold.
3. Everyone sins prior to postmortem, and God hates all sin, and no one sins postmortem.
4. Under the tenets of Christianity, sin is irrelevant, as it is belief, faith, and relationship which opens the gate to heaven; not instead how many times a human does or does not give in to sin.

 

[Tone]

Assuming you admit your senses are indeed fallible, then how do you know you are not wrong? Can trust be broken?

Is it possible, that if God is the author of the Bible, He is simply going to tell humans He is good?

I would 'assume' that, when reading specific passages commanded within the Bible, it might appear difficult to reconcile them as 'good' acts, without rationalization and/or justification...?

Human senses are fallible. By trust borne through a whirlwind existence. We can break trust;He does not.

2 Timothy 2
"12 if we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will also deny us; 13 if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

Are you saying God allows 'evil' as noise in this temporal world, as a means to create distraction, to test the faith of His subjects? The noise is not necessary, as belief in an agent, having faith in an agent, and having a relationship with an agent, does not require the present of 'evil'. 'Evil' is completely disconnected. Thus, seems odd that God would not simply eradicate it, as it seems to do nothing more than to cause temporary human suffering, for no real reason.

Maybe, the Bible does speak about testing to see what is in the heart. I still don't understand what you are saying in regards to evil not being required for faith, etc.... I have explained before that it was, is, and will be dealt with. It seems that you are wondering why evil isn't completely absent at this very moment (now), and I can only say that it is...and is yet to be. I know,seems contradictory according to a linear viewpoint.

Ergo, all should be allowed in heaven, as all will sin prior to crossing this divide, and none will sin postmortem; once anyone passed this threshold. Again, sin appears irrelevant...

The threshold is not death, it is Messiah:

John 11:25
"25 Jesus said to her,“I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. "

 

[Tone]

Jeremiah 17
"9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure—who can understand it? 10 I, the LORD, search the heart; I test the mind to reward a man according to his way, by what his deeds deserve. "

Proverbs 17:3
"3A crucible for silver and a furnace for gold, but the LORD is the tester of hearts. "

Deuteronomy 8:2
"2Remember that these forty years the LORD your God led you all the way in the wilderness, so that He might humble you and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep His commandments."