God is Good

cvanwey

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I hear this quite often, at least in my interconnected circle. Which raises (3) questions.

1. Is whatever God decides to do 'good', no matter what, because it is God whom is doing it?

Because I would imagine it seems that God, both in the Bible, and in the lives of all believers, have said to themselves at least one time or another, especially during 'trying' times, 'God works in mysterious ways'. Or, 'God's ways are above our level of understanding.' Or, 'God does all things according to His will.' It goes without saying, all such sayings are usually issued when the believer tends not to agree, at least on some level, with God's apparent plan.

Two additional questions, continuing from another topic...

If God is Good....

2. Why not instead contain the perpetuating cause of evil, (i.e.) Satan and/or his demons?

3. Why allow evil to continue existing, when it is instead belief, faith, and a relationship with Christ which drives the admittance to heaven? Sin appears to be a by-product everyone on earth commits and experiences regardless of belief/non-belief.
 
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cvanwey

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Hints to jump start this topic a bit.....

1. Is whatever God does, always good, no matter what, even if we as humans cannot find a rational justification for it? Do you think this is because He says so?

2. Seems as though a claimed loving agent would not knowingly release a 'maniac' into the public, knowing full well this maniac is to do continuous damage until contained. It seems as though, this loving agent would instead contain such maniac(s), especially if this loving agent states they are going to get rid of them later anyways.

3. The existence of evil seems like nothing more than background noise, or a distractor. If getting into God's graces has to do with belief, repentance, and a relationship, the act of sin is going to happen, even by all believers. And since God appears to hate all sin, why allow it, if He knows He's going to later eradicate it anyways. Furthermore, a person whom commits much less sin than the next, merits absolutely no extra favor in God's good graces. So why not just eradicate all sin from the get-go? It seems irrelevant.
 
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gaara4158

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I think you’re not getting engagement because your presentation looks too much like the euthyphro dilemma and the problem of evil put together in one thread, both of which are topics that have already gotten a lot of mileage in other threads. If there is something about the two in conjunction that you feel poses an especially formidable objection to Christianity, maybe you could condense it into a shorter thesis that doesn’t lend itself to the common responses to ED and PoE?

Well, it’s either that or theists just “can’t touch this” :cool:
 
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Chriliman

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I hear this quite often, at least in my interconnected circle. Which raises (3) questions.

1. Is whatever God decides to do 'good', no matter what, because it is God whom is doing it?

Because I would imagine it seems that God, both in the Bible, and in the lives of all believers, have said to themselves at least one time or another, especially during 'trying' times, 'God works in mysterious ways'. Or, 'God's ways are above our level of understanding.' Or, 'God does all things according to His will.' It goes without saying, all such sayings are usually issued when the believer tends not to agree, at least on some level, with God's apparent plan.

Two additional questions, continuing from another topic...

If God is Good....

2. Why not instead contain the perpetuating cause of evil, (i.e.) Satan and/or his demons?

3. Why allow evil to continue existing, when it is instead belief, faith, and a relationship with Christ which drives the admittance to heaven? Sin appears to be a by-product everyone on earth commits and experiences regardless of belief/non-belief.

I feel like I’ve answered this adequately before.

1. If God is God then His understanding should logically surpass our own. Unless we’re saying God’s knowledge is no better than the most intelligible humans.

2. God wants relational freedom to love, which necessitates a finite possibility of evil.

3. See above. If God doesn’t allow for a finite possibility of disobedience/evil then there can be no eternal(lasting) possibility of freedom and love. The reason I say disobedience and evil is finite is because it won’t last forever like God’s gift of eternal freedom and love will.
 
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1. If God is God then His understanding should logically surpass our own. Unless we’re saying God’s knowledge is no better than the most intelligible humans.
If God's understanding surpasses our own, then how can we judge Him?I've heard this often from Christians. I don't know if you'd agree with it, but I think you might, given what you just said.

The problem with saying this is that Christians do judge God - not in the sense of ascertaining guilt or innocence, but in the sense of "to form an opinion or conclusion about". Yet if God's ways are beyond our understanding, then how can you judge Him to be good? If you cannot understand His motivations, then how can you say that He is good and loving? It's nothing more than a claim - a claim which is contradicted by our understanding of what good and loving behaviour looks like.

Good and loving people don't order genocide, don't commit genocide, don't order people into slavery, and don't commit "cruel and unusual punishment" of sending people to Hell.
The Bible shows God doing many, many things that - if they were done by humans - would be unhesitatingly labelled as evil. So how can you say that He is good?
 
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RaymondG

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If God's understanding surpasses our own, then how can we judge Him?I've heard this often from Christians. I don't know if you'd agree with it, but I think you might, given what you just said.

The problem with saying this is that Christians do judge God - not in the sense of ascertaining guilt or innocence, but in the sense of "to form an opinion or conclusion about". Yet if God's ways are beyond our understanding, then how can you judge Him to be good? If you cannot understand His motivations, then how can you say that He is good and loving? It's nothing more than a claim - a claim which is contradicted by our understanding of what good and loving behaviour looks like.

Good and loving people don't order genocide, don't commit genocide, don't order people into slavery, and don't commit "cruel and unusual punishment" of sending people to Hell.
The Bible shows God doing many, many things that - if they were done by humans - would be unhesitatingly labelled as evil. So how can you say that He is good?
I think you may have something....... I think your view is the same as some religious people.....just opposite ends of the spectrum....

One judges a god that is good and worships this idea and write off anything that seems contrary to it. the other judges a god that is not so good, and therefore say I will not worship or believe in this idea of god......and writes off anything contrary to it.

The fact is......That God IS.......period. When we start to judge...we slowly fall from grace...as in the story of two who ate a fruit to gain knowledge of the good and the evil.

When we drop our image of the god who is good or the god who is evil and therefore doesnt exist.......we can embrace and be embrace by the God who IS.....the I Am.
 
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cvanwey

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I feel like I’ve answered this adequately before.

1. If God is God then His understanding should logically surpass our own. Unless we’re saying God’s knowledge is no better than the most intelligible humans.

2. God wants relational freedom to love, which necessitates a finite possibility of evil.

3. See above. If God doesn’t allow for a finite possibility of disobedience/evil then there can be no eternal(lasting) possibility of freedom and love. The reason I say disobedience and evil is finite is because it won’t last forever like God’s gift of eternal freedom and love will.

Thank you for responding...

1. Please watch this short video, to get a better understanding about where I'm coming from here... Then please re-read my original question.
I'm not necessarily using this guy as the 'authority', but his response seems to pin point or sum up the conclusion Christians seem to want to make, in regards to such a topic.


2. Are you saying God allows Satan to perform his temporary will upon man, for as long as humans are on natural earth, as a requirement to exercise human's choice to love God? That without the existence of evil, 'man' is not truly tested, in regards to their claimed love for God?

3. I'll stop here, as point 2 needs further clarification...
 
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Chriliman

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Thank you for responding...

1. Please watch this short video, to get a better understanding about where I'm coming from here... Then please re-read my original question.
I'm not necessarily using this guy as the 'authority', but his response seems to pin point or sum up the conclusion Christians seem to want to make, in regards to such a topic.


2. Are you saying God allows Satan to perform his temporary will upon man, for as long as humans are on natural earth, as a requirement to exercise human's choice to love God? That without the existence of evil, 'man' is not truly tested, in regards to their claimed love for God?

No, I’m saying God allows for the possibility of Satan’s evil will for the sake of eternal freedom and love. Again, if God did not allow for the possibility of Satan’s(anyone’s) evil will then true freedom and love would not be possible.
 
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Chriliman

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If God's understanding surpasses our own, then how can we judge Him?I've heard this often from Christians. I don't know if you'd agree with it, but I think you might, given what you just said.

The problem with saying this is that Christians do judge God - not in the sense of ascertaining guilt or innocence, but in the sense of "to form an opinion or conclusion about". Yet if God's ways are beyond our understanding, then how can you judge Him to be good? If you cannot understand His motivations, then how can you say that He is good and loving? It's nothing more than a claim - a claim which is contradicted by our understanding of what good and loving behaviour looks like.

Yes, we can form conclusions about God based on what he’s revealed to us through Jesus, anything beyond that is impossible to form a conclusion on, as you’ve said.

Good and loving people don't order genocide, don't commit genocide, don't order people into slavery, and don't commit "cruel and unusual punishment" of sending people to Hell.
The Bible shows God doing many, many things that - if they were done by humans - would be unhesitatingly labelled as evil. So how can you say that He is good?

It may be that all those horrible things were man’s actions attributed to God or God evolved in some way, realizing his previous actions were wrong and stopped or those actions were necessary to preserve God’s creation. I don’t know.
 
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cvanwey

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No, I’m saying God allows for the possibility of Satan’s evil will for the sake of eternal freedom and love. Again, if God did not allow for the possibility of Satan’s(anyone’s) evil will then true freedom and love would not be possible.

Then I guess this is what is throwing me off... How would this concept work in heaven; a place completely devoid of evil? You first stated, 'which necessitates a finite possibility of evil.'

Also, did you watch the video? What say you about this conclusion? Do you agree?
 
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The antithesis of good is evil, if evil then good. In order for evil to be rightly called evil there has to be a transcendental standard of good. So as it turns out, the existence of evil, in a backwards way proves the existence of a good God, the standard by which anything "good" or shades thereof (in human measurements) can be measured.
 
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Tone

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The existence of evil seems like nothing more than background noise, or a distractor.

So you acknowledge the existence? The residue.

If getting into God's graces has to do with belief, repentance, and a relationship, the act of sin is going to happen, even by all believers. And since God appears to hate all sin, why allow it, if He knows He's going to later eradicate it anyways.


You forget that the past, the present, and the future are laid out before Him, at once.



Furthermore, a person whom commits much less sin than the next, merits absolutely no extra favor in God's good graces. So why not just eradicate all sin from the get-go? It seems irrelevant.

He has.


*Theory on the origin of evil
 
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One judges a god that is good and worships this idea and write off anything that seems contrary to it. the other judges a god that is not so good, and therefore say I will not worship or believe in this idea of god......and writes off anything contrary to it.
That's not actually how it works, I'm afraid.
Yes, Christians do judge God as good, and they do ignore any evidence of His doing evil. This is plainly apparent.
But atheists are not in a diametrically opposed situation. Atheists do not believe that God exists, and they believe that the character "The God of the Bible" has both good and evil characteristics. They can see this, quite simply, by reading the Bible and seeing God do both good and evil.

Also, atheists don't disbelieve in God because they don't like Him. They disbelieve in God because they see no evidence that He exists.

The fact is......That God IS.......period. When we start to judge...we slowly fall from grace...as in the story of two who ate a fruit to gain knowledge of the good and the evil.
I'm not sure that makes sense. Is it not a key part of Christianity that God is good?

When we drop our image of the god who is good or the god who is evil and therefore doesnt exist.......we can embrace and be embrace by the God who IS.....the I Am.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

It may be that all those horrible things were man’s actions attributed to God or God evolved in some way, realizing his previous actions were wrong and stopped or those actions were necessary to preserve God’s creation. I don’t know.
Going by what Christians say about God, He has been responsible for some very evil actions. It's not our Holy Book, and it's not our fault that it portrays God as a savage tribal deity.
 
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Chriliman

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Then I guess this is what is throwing me off... How would this concept work in heaven; a place completely devoid of evil? You first stated, 'which necessitates a finite possibility of evil.'

Also, did you watch the video? What say you about this conclusion? Do you agree?

God created angels in heaven with the ability to possibly disobey him. So yes, Heaven was devoid of evil, but that doesn’t mean evil was impossible.
 
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cvanwey

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So you acknowledge the existence? The residue.


Well, I'm a moral relativist really. What I consider evil and what you consider evil may not be one in the same. But this would not matter. God sets His own standard for evil. And according Him, Satan is evil.

You forget that the past, the present, and the future are laid out before Him, at once.

This doesn't address my observation.

If salvation is based upon belief and a relationship, sin is just a background by-product, in which does not really seem necessary. Thus, why would God allow for such, and/or not contain as such, when it's not necessary or relevant?
 
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cvanwey

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The antithesis of good is evil, if evil then good. In order for evil to be rightly called evil there has to be a transcendental standard of good. So as it turns out, the existence of evil, in a backwards way proves the existence of a good God, the standard by which anything "good" or shades thereof (in human measurements) can be measured.

I disagree...

According to Christianity, God sets the standard for what is sin. Thus, allowing the continuance of sin there-after seems unnecessary. I'm going to use your response, and replace good/evil with tall/short to demonstrate:

Assertion from 'cvanwey's' objective book: A tall person is anyone at or above six feet tall.

Now to your response:


'The antithesis of tall is short, if short then tall. In order for short to be rightly called short there has to be a transcendental standard of tall. So as it turns out, the existence of short, in a backwards way proves the existence of a tall God, the standard by which anything "tall" or shades thereof (in human measurements) can be measured.'

Another analogy could be a 'tall' mountain. In order for the mountain to be considered tall, it does not need to be compared directly to a large hole. The definition of 'tall' is in the eye of the beholder. In the case of the Bible, the standard is set from the Bible. Thus, if the Bible states a mountain 10K feet above sea level is deemed tall, then there exists no need to exist shorter mountains, gorges, or holes to demonstrate this.... Seeing the mountain above a plateau is sufficient, not the antithesis - (10K foot hole).
 
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cvanwey

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God created angels in heaven with the ability to possibly disobey him. So yes, Heaven was devoid of evil, but that doesn’t mean evil was impossible.

Second request: 'Also, did you watch the video? What say you about this conclusion? Do you agree?'

Also, does sin exist in heaven or not?
 
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