God Is a Physical Being

[JAL]

@Der Alte,

And let's bear in mind: Extraordinary claims call for extraordinary evidence.

 

[Der Alte]

Oh I see how this works. You're saying that my list of scholars isn't credible until proven so and yet, in your next post below (638), you want me to assume your list of scholars to be credible until proven otherwise. Nice double standard. Lovely.

Wrong as usual! I did not provide a list of scholars I provided a quote from one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons currently available. And that particular section was stating the fact that pneuma "The Spirit appears as an independent personality in formulas that became more and more fixed and distinct." and listed numerous historical sources which supported it.
All you have done is repeat Plato this Plato that without providing even one quote where something Plato said was copied by, quoted etc. by a Christian writer.

 

[Der Alte]

Oh I see how this works. You're saying that my list of scholars isn't credible until proven so and yet, in your next post below (638), you want me to assume your list of scholars to be credible until proven otherwise. Nice double standard. Lovely.

Relevance? Yes, traditional scholarship, as I stated, believed Plato and hence in immaterial spirits. That's what is in dispute here. Asserting what is in debate is NOT an argument.
Do you have anything relevant to say in this debate? Any biblical/exegetical/contextual evidence strongly indicating immaterialism? Or are you simply demanding that I believe Platonic scholars by blind faith? Because I'd like to see some evidence in the actual Scriptures but you don't actually have any.

Repetitive nonsense. Try actually reading my posts.

 

[JAL]

Wrong as usual! I did not provide a list of scholars.

There are multiple scholars named in the citation. Otherwise known as a list.

Try actually reading my posts.

You should try actually reading your own posts. Had you done so, you would have seen the list.

Wrong as usual!

Stop deluding yourself. You haven't shown any statement of mine to be wrong.

I provided a quote from one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons currently available. And that particular section was stating the fact that pneuma "The Spirit appears as an independent personality in formulas that became more and more fixed and distinct." and listed numerous historical sources which supported it.

Which fact? The fact that the Third Person is an independent personality? That fact is not in dispute here. That's why He is called the Third Person. What's in dispute is whether He is an immaterial incoherence without size, shape, and existing substance - a gibberish-dogma originating in Plato.

All you have done is repeat Plato this Plato that without providing even one quote where something Plato said was copied by, quoted etc. by a Christian writer.

Fact:
(1) There is no exegetical/contextual evidence for immaterialism.
(2) Plato is the only clear, undisputed originator of immaterialism. If you don't know this, please take Philosophy 101.

One thing is clear - immaterialism isn't articulated in the Bible! Therefore it had to come from pure philosophy whether of Plato or someone else. Take your pick, because it's really a moot point.

 

[JAL]

@Der Alte

If you took a Philosophy 101 course, you'd soon learn that:

"ideas about the immaterial and the incorporeal go back to Plato, Augustine, Plotinus, and many other ancient and medieval philosophers. Plato and Socrates made many references to eternal forms that are immaterial or incorporeal."
Immaterialism | Psychology Wiki | Fandom (wikia.org)

 

[Carl Emerson]

Galatians 5:

Regarding Abraham...

17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

 

[JAL]

Galatians 5:

Regarding Abraham...

17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

I think you mean Romans 4:17 which reads in the KJV:

17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think you mean Romans 4:17 which reads in the KJV:

17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Whoops... Yes wrong reference...

I assume you will prefer the KJV rendering as it aligns better with your philosophy...

It seems plain to me that your assertion from Science that matter cannot be created or destroyed has been elevated above the ability of God Himself making science a god...

 

[JAL]

Whoops... Yes wrong reference...

I assume you will prefer the KJV rendering as it aligns better with your philosophy...

It seems plain to me that your assertion from Science that matter cannot be created or destroyed has been elevated above the ability of God Himself making science a god...

Some things are not logically possible, nor should they be. Can God make 2 + 2 = 5?

I think you should open your mind to reality that magic - such as creation ex nihilo - might be logically impossible.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Some things are not logically possible, nor should they be. Can God make 2 + 2 = 5?

I think you should open your mind to reality that magic - such as creation ex nihilo - might be logically impossible.

The Character and Abilities of God defy logic.

 

[JAL]

The Character and Abilities of God defy logic.

So you think God CAN make 2 + 2 = 5?
If God defies logic, we have no hope, and no basis for doctrine. For example if He can build this equation:

Telling lies = integrity

it would divest us of hope.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The Character and Abilities of God defy logic.

You seem to want to demote God from Creator to creature.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So you think God CAN make 2 + 2 = 5?
If God defies logic, we have no hope, and no basis for doctrine. For example if He can build this equation:

Telling lies = integrity

it would divest us of hope.

Not so...

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding - in all you ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight.

No loss of hope there...

 

[JAL]

Not so...

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding - in all you ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight.

No loss of hope there...

No, you're missing the point. You just quoted an assurance from the Bible. But you can't rely on that assurance if God can equate dishonesty with integrity. You wouldn't be able to trust anything that He wrote in the Bible.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Are you now saying God is dishonest ???

You seem to be unable to perceive God as 'Wholely other' and well beyond mans puny comprehension.

 

[JAL]

Are you now saying God is dishonest ???

You seem to be unable to perceive God as 'Wholely other' and well beyond mans puny comprehension.

No, I'm saying that YOU are implying that He can be dishonest. You just said he defies logic! If He isn't bound to logical consistency, then He is free to behave dishonestly and call it honesty!

 

[Carl Emerson]

No, I'm saying that YOU are implying that He can be dishonest. You just said he defies logic! If He isn't bound to logical consistency, then He is free to behave dishonestly and call it honesty!

Nonsense - I am doing no such thing.

His actions may appear to be dishonest because of our inadequate means of judging His actions and knowing the full story.

Who are you to judge God when He seems illogical.

What is needed is to let God be God and not insist that He conforms to some human frame of thinking.

God is Love - period.

It is not for us to judge His actions.

 

[JAL]

Nonsense - I am doing no such thing.

You're still missing my point. I'm only speaking hypothetically. I'm merely saying that we cannot embrace a theology which defies logical consistency. If we could, then the following two statements would be equally true:
(1) The Son is God.
(2) The Son is not God.

Doctrine depends on logic. Please don't tell me that God defies logic! That's all I'm saying.

What is needed is to let God be God and not insist that He conforms to some human frame of thinking.

Er..um..eh..we are human beings. All theology, therefore, consists of human concepts. If you don't believe that human concepts can be accurate about God, it doesn't make sense for you to accept ANY doctrines.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Doctrine depends on logic. Please don't tell me that God defies logic! That's all I'm saying.

Feeding 5000 with a boys lunch defies logic.

Causing a metal axe head to float defies logic.

Bringing the shadow of the sun backwards on a flight of steps defies logic.

Instantly transforming water into wine defies logic.

Being bodily transported from the desert to Jerusalem defies logic.

Being three yet One as a Godhead defies logic.

Walking on water defies logic.

If you don't believe that human concepts can be accurate about God, it doesn't make sense for you to accept ANY doctrines.

Wrong... Our limited minds will never fully comprehend the majesty of God.

But with His help we can know enough.

 

[JAL]

Feeding 5000 with a boys lunch defies logic.

Causing a metal axe head to float defies logic.

Ridiculous. As I said, the physical hand of God is on every particle of matter for purposes of monitoring and regulating it. You're telling me it's difficult for Him to hold an axe above water? Heck, if you know how to swim, you could do that trick yourself!

Bringing the shadow of the sun backwards on a flight of steps defies logic.

What do you mean defies logic? Again, there's no logical contradiction here, although I admit that Yahweh manipulates matter in amazing ways.

Instantly transforming water into wine defies logic.

No, it's just Yahweh's physical dexterity at reorganizing clusters of matter with His own hands.

Being bodily transported from the desert to Jerusalem defies logic.

Heck, even man-made airplanes can do that trick!

Being three yet One as a Godhead defies logic.

Which cell in your brain is the real you? ALL of them. Multiplicity is an inescapable corollary of material souls. Nothing inherently supernatural/miraculous/magical about it.

Walking on water defies logic.

See above comments about floating an axe.

Wrong... Our limited minds will never fully comprehend the majesty of God.

You're confusing two different things.
(1) Comprehending God quantitatively. I agree that such is not fully possible.
(2) Comprehending God qualitatively. If we can't comprehend all significant aspects of God, theology and doctrine are exercises in futility. And if He defies/contradicts logic, we might as well throw our Bibles away right now.