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God Is a Physical Being

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by JAL, May 17, 2020.

  1. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Page 16
    THE HOLY SPIRIT
    by Whom the Father is known and the Son is glorified. . . . Why make a long discourse of it? All that the Father has the Son has also, except the being Unbegotten; and all that the Son has the Spirit has also, except the Generation.
    (Gregory Nazianzen, Oral. XLI.9, NPNF 2 VII, p. 382, amended)
    The Worship ofGod the Spirit. The Spirit is called Lord (1 Cor. 12:4-6) because he is God, entitled to the same worship rightly offered up to the Father and the Son (Basil, On the Spirit VIII.44-XXI.52, NPNF 2 VIII, pp. 27-34). The Spirit’s name is placed on equal terms with the Lord in the apostolic benediction (2 Cor. 13:14). The Spirit’s equality with Father and Son is clear from the great commis- sion (Matt. 28:19), an equality that does not erase distinguishability (Athanasius, LCHS IV.3-4; cf. Gregory of Nyssa, On the Holy Spirit, NPNF 2 IV, p. 325). “The Spirit is jointly worshipped in God, when God is worshipped in the Spirit” (Ambrose, Ofthe Holy Spirit III.X.82, NPNF 2 X, p. 147). By diminishing the Spirit one does not exalt Father or Son: “If ever there was a time when the Son was not, then there was a time when the Spirit was not. If the One was from the beginning, then the Three were so too. If you throw down the One, I am bold to assert that you do not set up the other Two” (Gregory Nazianzen, Orat. XXXI.4, On the Holy Spirit, NPNF 2 VII, p. 319).
    The Holy Spirit is supplicated as “perfecting all other things, but Himself lack- ing in nothing; living not as needing restoration, but as Supplier of life; not grow- ing by additions, but straightway full, the self-established, omnipresent, source of sanctification” (Basil, On the Holy Spirit, 1.9, NPNF 2 VIII, p. 15, amended). Daily prayer has begun for centuries in the Orthodox tradition with this prayer: “O Heavenly King, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, who art everywhere and fillest all things, Treasury of blessings and Giver of Life, Come and abide in us, and cleanse us from every impurity, and save our souls, O Good One.”
    The Many Names of the One Spirit. Though called by many names, the Spirit is one (Tho. Aq., ST I—I, Q36, I, pp. 182—85): Only the Spirit of life could be the Spirit of holiness. Only the Holy Spirit could be the one Spirit of the Church. Only the Spirit of love could be at once the sacramental and charismatic Spirit. Though any systematic discussion of the Holy Spirit must be divided into sequen- tial parts, God the Spirit remains undivided, and “we preach faith undivided to- wards Him” (Cyril ofJerusalem, Catech. Led. XVII.2, NPNF 2 VII, p. 124).
    The work of the one Spirit is indicated by varied names ascribed in scripture. As compassionate Lord, the Spirit is Comforter (John 14:16), as reclaimer, the Spirit of adoption (Rom. 8:15), as regenerator, the Spirit of Life (Rom. 8:2), as life giver, the Spirit who awakens faith (2 Cor. 4:13), as merciful One, the Spirit of Grace (Heb. 10:29), as teacher, the Spirit of Truth (John 14:17), as counselor, the Spirit of Wisdom (Eph. 1:17), as sanctifier, the Spirit of holiness (Rom. 1:14; Cyril ofJerusalem, Catech. Led. XV.5, NPNF 2 VII, p. 125; Calvin, Inst. 3.1.3).
    Jesus himself chose the expression “Holy Breath” to designate the comforter to follow him (John 20:22; M. Sheeben, The Mysteries of Christianity, pp. 97 f.). “Christ breathed the Spirit in a corporeal fashion and thus showed that as from the mouth of a man comes the corporeal breath, so from the divine substance in a way that befits it comes the breath that proceeds from it” (Cyril of Alexandria,
    THE PERSON OF THE HOEY SPIRIT
    17
    Comm, on John 14.16, tractate IX, MPG 74.258; cf. Letters 55.40—43, FC 77, pp. 34—36). “The Greeks have compared the Spirit to the breathing forth of an outer breath, the Latins to the breathing forth of an inner love” (Bonaventure, Comm., Book / of Lombard's Sentences, XI, Q1; Heron, HS, p. 87).
    Faith’s privilege is not merely to believe that the Spirit is the third person of the Trinity but to “take him for Christ’s Agent or Advocate with our souls, and for our Guide, Sanctifier, and Comforter” (Baxter, Christian Directory 1.3.3). Holy Spirit is “the third name of divinity, the proclaimer of the one monarchy, and at the same time the interpreter of the economy. . . the ‘leader into all truth’” (Tertullian, Ag. Praxeas 30, ECF, p. 131). The Holy Spirit is “the Inspirer of the Faith, the Teacher of Knowledge, the Fount of Love, the Seal of Chastity, and the Cause of all Power” (Leo, Sermons LXXV, NPNF 2 XII, p. 191)."

    And, ignoring the other quotes by him that I posted weakens your jump to conclusions.
     
  2. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    You have not proven anything. Your problems with theology are only in your mind friend. Or maybe you have simply failed to communicate your positions in a way that makes sense to this big dummy.

    Phil 2 makes perfect sense of of God the Son becoming a man.
     
  3. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Nope, I showed clearly that despite all the translations of John 20:22 as Holy Spirit, Oden revealed the most literal translation to be 'Holy Breath'. Sorry you don't like what he said.
     
  4. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Why then haven't you disproven my proofs? Obviously because you can't. Fact is, I don't need any proofs. The only one who needs proofs is someone who postulates fairytales about magical immaterial substance.
    And where did I say otherwise? The Son of God became a man. What I objected to is an IMMUTABLE God mutating Himself into a man - that's a contradiction insoluble.
     
  5. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    I'm seeing lots of ad hominem on this thread and precious little refutation of the actual arguments. That only boosts my confidence in the solidity of my position.
     
  6. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    I think you missed the significance of Oden's statement that I cited. He wrote in our age and thus was well aware that all Bible translations show 'Holy Spirit'. And merely repeating that translation wouldn't have been very informative. Instead of repeating it, he EXPLAINED that what Jesus REALLY said was 'Holy Breath'.

    All you've done is cite other places where Oden uses the popular translation 'Holy Spirit'. And guess what? So do I !!!! If you read my posts on other threads, I ALWAYS write 'Holy Spirit' - I've been writing this way for many years - because that's what people are used to seeing. I've used 'Holy Spirit' hundreds of times in my posts. The only time I switch to 'Holy Breath' is when I'm specifically trying to EXPLAIN what Jesus REALLY said. And that's the significance of what Oden did! He was EXPLAINING to us what Jesus REALLY said. So I don't care if you cite hundreds of places where Oden referred to the 'Holy Spirit' - I did the same in my own posts! It proves nothing.

    Again, the significance is that all Oden's writings in that Systematic Theology attempt to reflect the consensus-position of professional theologians for the first 1,000 years of the church. Sorry but that consensus on John 20:22 is 'Holy Breath' (i.e. the consensus on what Jesus REALLY said, popular translations notwithstanding).

    Look, imagine a Greek child living in the early church, say 8 years old. He gets hold of John's manuscript and reads the following at John 20:22:

    "He breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy [Breath]".

    Based on the CONTEXT (the fact that Jesus was physically breathing upon them) even such a first-grader would see that the OBVIOUS meaning is 'Holy Breath'. Only someone brainwashed to believe in magical immaterial substances could possibly read it any other way.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  7. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    Only in your own mind, literally.
     
  8. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Correct. By definition, a boost in my confidence would take place in my own mind, literally.
     
  9. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    @Daniel Marsh,

    I linked you to an earlier post indicating approximately 13 points of incoherence in mainstream immaterialism. Naturally you ignored those 13 points. The third one, in particular, is quite perplexing, regarding omnipresence.

    Supposedly God created time and space. Huh? This would imply that space is not part of His definition, He never had any location, He was NOWHERE. The concept of location doesn't apply to such a God. (Doesn't make any sense of course, but that's the claim).


    Then He creates the universe - and now suddenly He is EVERYWHERE - fully and equally present at all possible locations in space? Sorry, does not compute.

    Immaterialism isn't a doctrine - it's just incoherent babbling. Materialism is a physical simplicity insusceptible to such charges of incoherence.
     
  10. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    How not to formulate an argument 101:

    1) repeatedly and incoherently claim all arguments contrary to yours are incoherent.

    2) when someone argues anything that disagrees with your argument ignore it and point to your previous incoherent claims of incoherance.

    3) Although not a single person has been persuaded by your incoherent arguments, incoherently and smugly claim victory.

    4) repeat
     
  11. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    OR, the problem is that immaterialism doesn't have any coherent tenets.
     
  12. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    And as usual, pure ad hominem with nothing specific to the arguments made or points in debate. But thanks for boosting my confidence yet again.
     
  13. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Marking my posts as funny merely because you can't refute my arguments is a form of flaming and goading in violation of forum rules. I don't stoop to such cheap debating tactics. I stick to the arguments.
     
  14. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    You are right I can't refute your arguments because they are utterly incoherent. It's like boxing the wind. Additionally I have zero desire to do so. You see, I'm not obsessed with being right about my homemade strange fire, I'm obsessed with Jesus and glorifying Him.
     
  15. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    (Yawn). As usual, pure ad hominem, nothing specific, nothing demonstrated, nothing even argued.

    Oh I see. Anyone who posts a point of view on these forums is "obsessed" - except you of course.
     
  16. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    Oh, the irony
     
  17. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    @Daniel Marsh, @topher694

    A short summary of immaterialism that I cited at post 274.

    "God is spirit as opposed to physical/material in His Being....God is not composed of matter nor any other imaginable substance. He also cannot be measured, is not spatial, and has no true location..."
    Does God have a physical body? | GotQuestions.org

    No location in space? In other words, He has no size and shape and thus, from the beginning, was ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE, as I mentioned a couple of posts back.

    Wow. That's a crystal clear world view. Makes perfect sense to me. (Not).

    Someday, when you're standing on streets of gold, staring at a solid Figure seated on a solid throne, you'll kick yourself wondering, "How was it that I ever managed to fall for immaterial nonsense? How could I have been so completely duped?"

    That's the power of hollow and deceptive philosophy. That's what it does to people.
     
  18. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Umm, everyone does this... All interpretation is eisegesis, we cannot go against our mindset, our mental filters, into a new interpretation without being led to believe our past decisions were wrong. Exegesis is the big flimflam unless GOD is speaking to you.
     
  19. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    So HE converts us by hypnosis and also hypnotises us to fall in love with HIM and then to want to marry HIM???

    Gedoudda here... GOD is NOT into a Stepford wife! Sounds more like a rape than a marriage to me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
  20. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    Let's try something
    Jesus is greater!
     
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