God Doesn't Want Me To Know Him

[ToddNotTodd]

But then again, from an atheistic perspective nothing really matters since we are all just random organisms that are here for no reason and will one day die out, so do whatever you will.

You don't seem to actually understand the "atheistic perspective" at all...

 

[Kenny'sID]

I think that cadet is talking about your god as a concept. This is the philosophy forum, after all.

But why even bring up the question if one has no belief in God? A couple of reasons I can think of:

A) One believes enough to be curious.

B) One is trying to convince others of all the reasons God doesn't exist.

You know, on this board, it is forbidden to say that anyone who self-identifies himself as a christian is instead not a christian.


Maybe you should extend the same courtesy to other people, too.

Do you abide by the rules here to a T?

******
God has provided all the proof necessary, us, the universe around us, and the Bible. If we choose to think all that came out of nowhere or some other nonsense, that's up to us. It was created, just as we create things...It did not happen randomly or out of nowhere just as we can sit here and expect a creation to appear for no reason, it won't. It must be created whether by us or God. Simple...Believe it or not.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

You don't seem to actually understand the "atheistic perspective" at all...

In the atheistic perspective there is no God, so there is no reason for our existence. We only exist because nature--that exists for no reason--birthed us for no reason; we are just a random organisms in a random universe. That is the atheistic perspective, is it not? If you disagree then feel free to share what you think the atheistic perspective is.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Okay man. I just sometimes wonder why some people who don't believe in God spend so much time debating with those who do. I understand that it is intellectually stimulating, but aren't we just delusional from the atheistic perspective? I wouldn't find myself very enlightened talking with delusional people, maybe irritated, but not enlightened. But then again, from an atheistic perspective nothing really matters since we are all just random organisms that are here for no reason and will one day die out, so do whatever you will.

Okay man. I just sometimes wonder why some people who don't believe in God spend so much time debating with those who do. I understand that it is intellectually stimulating, but aren't we just delusional from the atheistic perspective? I wouldn't find myself very enlightened talking with delusional people, maybe irritated, but not enlightened. But then again, from an atheistic perspective nothing really matters since we are all just random organisms that are here for no reason and will one day die out, so do whatever you will.

I've been following this thread, and while I can't say I believe in God despite trying and continuing to participate. I'd like to believe in God, so I ask myself the same question as the OP posts. Why does God not want me to know him especially since I'm asking and open? I can't of course answer for the OP, but I hang out here to either find God among believers, understand why God doesn't see fit to reveal Himself to me, or just cone to accept that God, at least as Christians understand, may not exist.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

I've been following this thread, and while I can't say I believe in God despite trying and continuing to participate. I'd like to believe in God, so I ask myself the same question as the OP posts. Why does God not want me to know him especially since I'm asking and open? I can't of course answer for the OP, but I hang out here to either find God among believers, understand why God doesn't see fit to reveal Himself to me, or just cone to accept that God, at least as Christians understand, may not exist.

Before you can even come to know God you must accept that you are a sinner. Mankind is full of sin and pride and God is holy and doesn't owe anything to anyone. If you want to know God then you must embrace this truth and seek Him with a repentant heart. Search the words of Jesus and find them to be true. Knowing God is a gift of grace; it has always been this way.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Before you can even come to know God you must accept that you are a sinner.

That sounds right to me. We question, we run the gambit of logical thought, and through that some reach a conclusion he exists or just *may* exist, then some of them are convinced enough they do what he requires in order to see for themselves, and they give God a try.

Some hang in there and some don't.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

In the atheistic perspective there is no God, so there is no reason for our existence. We only exist because nature--that exists for no reason--birthed us for no reason; we are just a random organisms in a random universe. That is the atheistic perspective, is it not? If you disagree then feel free to share what you think the atheistic perspective is.

You've got it wrong. As an atheist, I don't say there is no god. I say I don't believe in any of the god claims that have been presented. That's all there is to being an atheist. There really isn't an "atheistic perspective".

Furthermore, we don't live in totally "random universe". The universe is governed by consistent physical properties. Nature exists because of those properties. The reason I exist, and I'm supposing it's the same for you, is that our parents had sex.

And if you're really talking about purpose and meaning of people's lives, I'm quite content giving my own life purpose and meaning. There doesn't need to be an external source.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

You've got it wrong. As an atheist, I don't say there is no god. I say I don't believe in any of the god claims that have been presented. That's all there is to being an atheist. There really isn't an "atheistic perspective".

An atheist believes there is no theos, or God. If you are simply confused about who God may be, then you would be an agnostic, or one without knowledge of who God is.

Furthermore, we don't live in totally "random universe". The universe is governed by consistent physical properties. Nature exists because of those properties. The reason I exist, and I'm supposing it's the same for you, is that our parents had sex.

By random I mean there is no real purpose or design regarding why the universe exists. Purpose, design, and reason come from intelligent beings. If there is no theos, then there is no reason/why for the universe.

And if you're really talking about purpose and meaning of people's lives, I'm quite content giving my own life purpose and meaning. There doesn't need to be an external source.

I'm very aware of the fact that most people would not want God giving their life meaning and purpose. Sinners are quite content without God.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

An atheist believes there is no theos, or God. If you are simply confused about who God may be, then you would be an agnostic, or one without knowledge of who God is.

Wrong again, agnosticism has to do with knowledge. Atheism has to do with belief. They aren't mutually exclusive. I'm an agnostic atheist, which means that I don't believe in any gods, and that nothing is known about the existence of any god.

By random I mean there is no real purpose or design regarding why the universe exists. Purpose, design, and reason comes from intelligent beings. If there is no theos, then there is no reason/why for the universe.

Incorrect. Purpose, design and reason can be inherent in any system, whether natural or man made. Not that it actually has any bearing on the conversation, of course...

I'm very aware of the fact that most people would not want God giving their life meaning and purpose. Sinners are quite content without God.

Obvious dig aside, it's still a non sequitur to imply that if we don't have purposes given to us by mythical gods it means we should be able to do whatever we will...

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Wrong again, agnosticism has to do with knowledge. Atheism has to do with belief. They aren't mutually exclusive. I'm an agnostic atheist, which means that I don't believe in any gods, and that nothing is known about the existence of any god.

I know what agnostic and atheist mean. In your previous post you said quote: "As an atheist, I don't say there is no god." Atheism by definition is saying there is no God: a (no) theos (God). You can be an agnostic atheist who neither knows of God nor believes in Him, but how can you say there is no God if you lack the knowledge required to make that assessment? I think it would be wiser just to call yourself an agnostic, because you truly don't know (agnosis) if there is a theos or if there is atheos.

Incorrect. Purpose, design and reason can be inherent in any system, whether natural or man made. Not that it actually has any bearing on the conversation, of course...

Sure, you can find design in many things, but to say that the universe has no real designer is to say that whatever design we find is not really designed at all: it's happenstance. I have no problem with seeing design and reason in nature as I believe there was a designer and a reasoner behind it. The one who says there is a (no) theos (God) is finding reasons and designs that aren't really there: cause and effect maybe, but no real existential reason.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I know what agnostic and atheist mean.

Apparently you don't know what atheism means. And the etymology of a word has absolutely nothing to do with its current meaning. You should know that. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in deities. So like I've already said, I don't say there are no gods. And I'm an agnostic atheist. If I were a gnostic atheist, I'd say that there are no gods.

If you don't believe me, ask all the other atheists here...

Sure, you can find design in many things, but to say that the universe has no real designer is to say that whatever design we find is not really designed at all: it's happenstance. I have no problem with seeing design and reason in nature as I believe there was a designer and a reasoner behind it. The one who says there is a (no) theos (God) is finding reasons and designs that aren't really there: cause and effect maybe, but no real existential reason.

Once again, patterns and designs in nature aren't happenstance, they're emergent properties of a system. They might not be "existential", but then again... who cares?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Apparently you don't know what atheism means. And the etymology of a word has absolutely nothing to do with its current meaning. You should know that. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in deities. So like I've already said, I don't say there are no gods. And I'm an agnostic atheist. If I were a gnostic atheist, I'd say that there are no gods.

If you don't believe me, ask all the other atheists here...

I thought atheism was the belief that there is no God, and the etymology would certainly suggest that, but I guess I'm wrong. So you are an atheist who believes God could exist?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I thought atheism was the belief that there is no God, and the etymology would certainly suggest that, but I guess I'm wrong.

The etymology is about belief rather than existence.

Theism is having a belief in the existence of a deity or deities. So strictly, a-theism is not having a belief in the existence of a deity or deities, which is subtly but significantly different from having a belief in the non-existence of a deity or deities (i.e. believing they don't exist).

Current popular usage, and many dictionary definitions, tend to equate atheism with a belief (in the non-existence of a deity or deities). Most atheists who express an opinion seem to prefer the etymological version - not having a belief - also known as 'implicit', 'negative' or 'weak' atheism, which makes it an umbrella for a number of subsets, including agnosticism (believing we can't know if deities exist), and 'explicit', 'positive', or 'strong' atheism (believing deity or deities don't exist).

An exhaustive (exhausting?) list is given here: 17 Kinds of atheism.

E.T.A. In case you're wondering, I put myself in a subset of category 4 (Difference in the Assessed Rationality of Theism) that isn't on the list, which I call 'introvert atheist', meaning I don't think I have any justification for belief in a deity or deities, but I'm agnostic (but pessimistic) about other people's justification for such a belief. I guess that means the list isn't exhaustive after all...

 

[ClothedInGrace]

The etymology is about belief rather than existence.

Theism is having a belief in the existence of a deity or deities. So strictly, a-theism is not having a belief in the existence of a deity or deities, which is subtly but significantly different from having a belief in the non-existence of a deity or deities (i.e. believing they don't exist).

Current popular usage, and many dictionary definitions, tend to equate atheism with a belief (in the non-existence of a deity or deities). Most atheists who express an opinion seem to prefer the etymological version - not having a belief - also known as 'implicit', 'negative' or 'weak' atheism, which makes it an umbrella for a number of subsets, including agnosticism (believing we can't know if deities exist), and 'explicit', 'positive', or 'strong' atheism (believing deity or deities don't exist).

An exhaustive (exhausting?) list is given here: 17 Kinds of atheism.

E.T.A. In case you're wondering, I put myself in a subset of category 4 (Difference in the Assessed Rationality of Theism) that isn't on the list, which I call 'introvert atheist', meaning I don't think I have any justification for belief in a deity or deities, but I'm agnostic (but pessimistic) about other people's justification for such a belief. I guess that means the list isn't exhaustive after all...

Yes, I did some research on my own and found out the different types of atheism. It would be nice if atheism was as simple as I thought it was, but that isn't the case. I guess many would consider themselves agnostic/weak/negative atheists who simply lack the knowledge necessary to determine which god--if any--is correct. It is admittedly a less ridiculous position than gnostic/strong/positive atheism, but I still think there needs to be some acknowledgement that a god of sorts does in fact exist. Yes, you don't know who God is, but surely you can figure out that He or it or whatever exists in some fashion.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Yes, I did some research on my own and found out the different types of atheism. It would be nice if atheism was as simple as I thought it was, but that isn't the case. I guess many would consider themselves agnostic/weak/negative atheists who simply lack the knowledge necessary to determine which god--if any--is correct.

Most atheists I know don't really think about it - any more than most Christians think about whether Ganesh might exist, or whether they can know if Shiva exists. They see it as just another superstition that people have.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Most atheists I know don't really think about it - any more than most Christians think about whether Ganesh might exist, or whether they can know if Shiva exists. They see it as just another superstition that people have.

I'm well aware of that.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I'm well aware of that.

Oh, OK. It didn't sound like it when you said, "I guess many would consider themselves agnostic/weak/negative atheists who simply lack the knowledge necessary to determine which god--if any--is correct."

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Oh, OK. It didn't sound like it when you said, "I guess many would consider themselves agnostic/weak/negative atheists who simply lack the knowledge necessary to determine which god--if any--is correct."

I'm well aware that many atheists just believe God is a superstitious belief. I said I would guess that many atheists are agnostic/weak/negative.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Okay man. I just sometimes wonder why some people who don't believe in God spend so much time debating with those who do. I understand that it is intellectually stimulating, but aren't we just delusional from the atheistic perspective? I wouldn't find myself very enlightened talking with delusional people, maybe irritated, but not enlightened.

What about when those people act on their beliefs and their actions cause real harm? Consider faith healing as an example, or those who think that climate change is not worth worrying about because Jesus will return soon.

But then again, from an atheistic perspective nothing really matters since we are all just random organisms that are here for no reason and will one day die out, so do whatever you will.

That's not "the atheistic perspective."

 

[ClothedInGrace]

What about when those people act on their beliefs and their actions cause real harm? Consider faith healing as an example, or those who think that climate change is not worth worrying about because Jesus will return soon.

So is that what you are here to do? Get us to worry about climate change? I'm not a fan of those who do fake miracles and kill people either, fyi. In case you were wondering, I'm here because I believe the good news of Jesus Christ and I like to talk about it with others. I also enjoy theology and hope my presence on this forum can be used for God's glory.

That's not "the atheistic perspective."

Yes, well I realize that now. Apparently atheists can believe that we are more than mutated organisms in a universe with no designer. They may not know who that designer is, but they can certainly acknowledge the existence of it.