Unless another religion is true and you end up in that version of hell because of your beliefs...
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You see the glass half-empty, I see it as half-full. I choose to see it as half-full, even when I can't be sure I see the glass clearly at all. Because, in the end, I have nothing to lose by doing so, and everything to gain.
Unless another religion is true and you end up in that version of hell because of your beliefs...
What religion would that be?
FWIW, I don't think Muhammed is the prophet of God. But even Islam is true, its my understanding that Allah is merciful and most Muslims I have talked to seem to have respect for Christians. So, I don't worry too much about this possibility.
IF Buddhism or Hinduism is true... I get another chance in the next life
See... you can't argue away hypothetical religions here (pagan gods? Thor, Zeus?.. puhleez). We have to look at real religions and what they believe.
And most religious people that are intelligent realize that it's not an "all or nothing" game (even in most conservative American churches, most people in the pews do not believe that God necessarily damns those of different faiths).
It's the snide atheist who thinks he has really gained something other than a few years of hedonistic merriment before... the grave.
Sigh. And so we reach the standard impasse.
Honestly, if you want to 'share the gospel' (again, don't really know what that means), with non-believers, why do you give up at the first - and quite reasonable - challenge? I've seen and heard this so many times, that I can't help assuming there is a serious problem in the way people are prepared to evangelise. It seems as though they're only prepared for preaching to the converted, which is frankly bizarre to me. If conversion is the goal, why aren't believers sent out armed with answers to the challenges we see in 2016? The very challenges being presented here. I mean good answers, not threats and waffle. Answers which demonstrate the gods' worthiness in a convincing way, as opposed to "just take my word for it". In this day and age, no one is going to take your word for it. The internet has ended the era of authoritarian indoctrination via isolation.
You must work harder, now ... that's all. But then you say it's not worth it. I hope for your sake your god doesn't interpret that in a way which is not in your favour.
So you used your puny human logic to convince yourself that your god exists, and is good. Interesting.
...No, really, what, exactly, is the great crime that makes one worthy of this? That we exist? That we aren't perfect in a way that is explicitly designed to be impossible?
So what's all that supposed to say? This is some sort of picture of The Living God, maker of heaven and earth who has made Himself know to us in the person of Jesus Christ? Disappointing junk.I owe my neighbor's dog nothing, but if I strung it up in my basement and spent several days working it over with a skinning knife until it died, people would rightfully call me a monster.
Clay can't think. It can't feel. It isn't sentient or sapient or capable of rational thought. It can't experience pain. It is a poor comparison to humans. If I were to craft a sentient being (say, for example, an AI program built as a 1:1 model copy of a human brain), this would not give me the right to torture it, and were I to actually create "android hell", you would be right to call me a monster for doing so.
Take a step back and you see how absurd all of this becomes. Simply by means of existing and not holding up to an impossible standard you think you deserve to be tortured forever. You believe that might makes right, or that creating a being gives you the right to torment it. That's absurd.
More than happy to accept the existence of a "life outside the material". All I need is evidence it exists and I'm good to go.Hi there Locutus,
This is all messmerising, I mean, mesmerising stuff, as in dogs chasing tails and hamsters turning wheels. What you are not understanding (or more probably what you refuse to accept) is that being born again of God's Spirit does not happen by 'convincing ourselves'. It is an action of God, from outside of a person, within a person. An act that fundamentally and forever changes the nature of the person and the nature of their relationship with the Creator.
You logic seems to be - I hear no God. I see no God. There is no God. Puny, hamster-wheel stuff.
There is evil in the world therefore if God created the world He is evil. Pathetic!
As long as you refuse to recognise that there is life outside of of the material universe (aka the hamster cage) and that all life within this material universe derives from its Creator who is Spirit, you will live and die by hamster logic.
God bless you
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You've proven yourself to be a troll. God loves trolls, but even trolls need to own their mess and recognize their need for a Savior.
Hello TodNotTodd,I don't think that, for the majority of apologists, coherent answers to challenges are even necessary. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard "It's not me but the holy spirit that convinces you."
Sure. I can but try. But not todayMore than happy to accept the existence of a "life outside the material". All I need is evidence it exists and I'm good to go.
And if you feel your particular religion is the best option in that mysterious non-material world, I'll also need specifics on how to know who is who in that realm.
Can you help me out?
It's as coherent as "the zoggleflintopup convinces you"Hello TodNotTodd,
I'm puzzled. What is incoherent about "It's not me but the holy spirit that convinces you."?
Go well
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Hello TodNotTodd,
I'm puzzled. What is incoherent about "It's not me but the holy spirit that convinces you."?
Go well
><>
I doubt you are going to find "unambiguous evidence" that can't be defeated by some sort of argument.
Saul was not saved because he was worthy. None of us merit salvation. On the contrary, God often goes after the worst sorts of people to save (let's keep in mind that Saul was basically the iron age equivalent of an ISIS iihadi, he was indeed a murderer). And God chooses to save those people in that manner according to his purposes, not ours.
I have no time to listen to that radio program, sorry.
But I think I know where you are headed. And I don't really have an answer that will knock your socks off. "Coincidences" or rather synchronicities have been taken seriously by many people of intelligence, such as Carl Jung, as evidence of something deeper going on than just some kind of random, blind luck.
You see the glass half-empty, I see it as half-full. I choose to see it as half-full, even when I can't be sure I see the glass clearly at all. Because, in the end, I have nothing to lose by doing so, and everything to gain.
I'm not talking about pitting one religions doctrines against another here (I admit, I choose to remain a Christian at times for somewhat pragmatic reasons), I'm just talking about being open to the possibility of an expanded moral and aesthetic vision that religion and spirituality offers, vs. just accepting the world as nothing more than what can be defined by whatever the current scientific consensus is.
And in my experience, there's something quite powerful about all those "coincidences". Maybe not undeniable. I don't believe God usually wants to hit us over the head and compel us to believe, as in the case of Saul on the road to Damascus.
It's not an apologetic, and not really out to prove that God exists. But it does talk about what exactly Christians, and specifically Charismatic Christians, are getting out of their religious experiences, from a sociological and wider scientific perspective. And it does analyze the "method" that Charismatic Christians use to obtain that sort of awareness of God's presence and engage in a relationship with God, and looks at it in terms of the psychology and sociology, primarily. There's a great history of the theology of Christian mysticism there, too.
As long as you refuse to recognise that there is life outside of of the material universe (aka the hamster cage) and that all life within this material universe derives from its Creator who is Spirit, you will live and die by hamster logic.
Our sin is that we despise the One who has brought us into existence
and do not give honour, praise and thank to the One who gives us every breath we take.
A clay pot is a very good metaphor for what we are and of course The Potter may indeed do what ever He wants with His pots.
Remember, “Faith is the evidence.”
That's not what happens, though. Instead, this "personal relationship" that we're supposed to have with God is contingent upon us first believing that he exists. We have to believe, then we'll get evidence.
Eventually. Conditionally. Maybe. I mean, just ask Matt Dillahunty how well that worked out for him - faithful Christian all his life, ended up deconverting while in seminary when he tried to fulfill his obligation from 1 Peter 3:15 and found that he couldn't.
Or, you know, ask me - I used to be a Christian. I used to pray.
As smart as Jung is, I don't see the concept of synchronicities to be particularly sensible. Humans look for patterns in everything.
We even find them when they aren't there. It seems like wishful thinking to me, and I don't know what could possibly prove it wrong - it's certainly not a scientific hypothesis.
I talked about this on a recent post in Whosoever Will, May Come. The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence. Church might seem like a chore but its not always a picnic to find something better to do.
- Your morality (see also: Ted Haggard, ISIS, Peter Popoff)
- Your time (or at least your sunday mornings)
I don't think God created Hell as a cosmic torture chamber, in fact I don't think God created Hell at all. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, as it's written in Genesis. No mention of hell. Hell is just the natural state were are born into, due to ancestral sins, we are born spiritually dead- materialism is our default reality. And sometimes Hell is not torture, sometimes its a primrose path where we get everything we want but we lose our soul in the process.
- The value of your humanity (or does the message that we all deserve to be tortured forever not do that?)
I'm not a Creationist, and neither are a great many other Christians. I can carry around an appreciation for the natural world in one hand and my faith in the other. In fact I think a disregard for nature is subchristian.
- Your ability to accurately assess the world (see also: the entire Creation and Evolution forum)
Not only does this ignore the experience of any Christian who didn't hear God and deconverted, but God should know that many of us won't hear those whispers. He's either incapable or uninterested in reaching me, and neither bodes well if he cares about us and wants a relationship with us.
I'm not sure I'd go that far in saying that we must first have faith. In fact, I think its the reverse. God draws us first before we believe. God initiates the relationship.
so true brother praise god
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