God Doesn't Want Me To Know Him

[11god11]

Did you also look at the eyes destroyed by a particularly nasty kind of burrowing worm (created by the creator, for a purpose)? And how about those full of cataracts, or glaucoma. And those which don't see. Or have become cancerous (another of the creator's creations) and had be removed? And let's not forget the colourblind, and astigmatisms, and conjunctivitis, and retinal disorders, and macular degeneration, and the red eye of albinism.

these are of the devil.perhaps a senior forum member could give more accurate answers than me.however I do understand what you are saying and im glad you have somewhere you can have your questions answered.have a good day friend

 

[Locutus]

he has you cant see it friend peace.

Why does he do it in stealth, so that I can't see it?

 

[Locutus]

these are of the devil.

My mistake. I had thought that god created everything.

"I made everything, good and evil" and all that.

 

[11god11]

we can all around us mate.the earth spins at 78000 mph round the sun for example,never altering course just perfectly placed,that alone is incredible.looking at your newborns face just gives you a feeling of something greater than yourself out there.i have asked the same questions friend that you are and sometimes I find some things hard to grasp.but lets say god is not real,you live a life of peace,love,happiness with other Christians then you die and you will be none the wiser.of course I believe that not to be the case but im just trying to make a point.I really hope you find god friend take care.mike

 

[11god11]

My mistake. I had thought that god created everything.

"I made everything, good and evil" and all that.

yeah I know that god made everything friend that's why I suggested you talk to a senior member of this forum I don't have the answers I believe you need

 

[Locutus]

yeah I know that god made everything friend that's why I suggested you talk to a senior member of this forum I don't have the answers I believe you need

Thanks, but I've spent about 30 years trying to get answers from 'seniors'. Pastors, grandmothers, theologians, young crusaders, Priests, etc. They claim to be able to answer any question, and claim to want to help. But they all cut and run, some after slamming doors.

 

[Locutus]

we can all around us mate.the earth spins at 78000 mph round the sun for example,never altering course just perfectly placed,that alone is incredible.looking at your newborns face just gives you a feeling of something greater than yourself out there.i have asked the same questions friend that you are and sometimes I find some things hard to grasp.but lets say god is not real,you live a life of peace,love,happiness with other Christians then you die and you will be none the wiser.of course I believe that not to be the case but im just trying to make a point.I really hope you find god friend take care.mike

Which god are you hoping I find, Mike? And why?

I've had three newborns, and didn't think of the gods once. I did, however, marvel at the wonders of nature, and the overwhelming protective instinct that nature provides us as mothers.

 

[11god11]

Which god are you hoping I find, Mike? And why?

I've had three newborns, and didn't think of the gods once. I did, however, marvel at the wonders of nature, and the overwhelming protective instinct that nature provides us as mothers.[/QU

Which god are you hoping I find, Mike? And why?

I've had three newborns, and didn't think of the gods once. I did, however, marvel at the wonders of nature, and the overwhelming protective instinct that nature provides us as mothers.

I think you know.good luck with your life god bless.

 

[FireDragon76]

And this is somehow worthy of eternal torture? Not prostrating ourselves 24/7 to someone simply because they put us into this world? What a horribly vain god you worship.

I think you miss something here. God is free of passions or vices like pride and vanity. If he wants us to worship him, it's for some other reason, other than his enjoyment.

Even if the pot can think, and feel, and experience? Imagine a potter capable of creating living clay golems, capable of feeling pain. Would you not call the potter a monster for smashing his "pots"?

@FireDragon76 this is a part of what I meant by giving up your moral compass, by the way.

I'm not a Calvinist so I don't believe God creates "pots" just to destroy them (that's a passage in Romans I think was taken well out of context, talking about a nation of people rather than an individual). There is a mystery to God's salvation, why some people believe and others don't, as somebody who attends a Lutheran church I can acknowledge that. But Lutherans also reject the idea that God creates anyone predestined to be destroyed, because we believe the witness of the Bible is against it. We don't point to speculative theology of God's meticulous control of all events as evidence of his glory, we point to Jesus dying for the sins of the whole world, and his rising from the grave and triumphing over his enemies as the way that God has chosen to glorify himself. It is a glory hidden from the world, and that is precisely why many other Protestant groups do not have this as the center of their theology.

If so, what of the faith of a Muslim or a Hindu?

I'm OK with them being saved because of their faith, if they follow the light they have been given. This isn't incompatible with belief that Jesus is the savior of the world. But the truth is, we just don't know for sure... we only know that Jesus has promised to save those that believe in him.

It's ironic that people mention colorblindness among a list of other maladies... that's a condition I have too (I see only about ten percent the shades of green that most people do). In fact I have a half-dozen medical conditions, some of them quite painful and difficult to treat, like fibromyalgia. It would be easy for me to stew in self-pity, but by the grace of God, it doesn't always overwhelm me. I've got things that are worth far more than riches, fame, or good health... in fact sometimes its possible to see, by the grace of God, that all these struggles allow us to appreciate other things that ordinary people cannot. And it's not like that faith has come easy to me, I've struggled with doubt too... I think most Christians do from time to time . But that's why Jesus left us with a Church, where we gather, despite out doubts, to hear the Gospel and receive the sacraments, and to meet with our brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[11god11]

god

I think you miss something here. God is free of passions or vices like pride and vanity. If he wants us to worship him, it's for some other reason, other than his enjoyment.



I'm not a Calvinist so I don't believe God creates "pots" just to destroy them (that's a passage in Romans I think was taken well out of context, talking about a nation of people rather than an individual). There is a mystery to God's salvation, why some people believe and others don't, as somebody who attends a Lutheran church I can acknowledge that. But Lutherans also reject the idea that God creates anyone predestined to be destroyed, because we believe the witness of the Bible is against it. We don't point to speculative theology of God's meticulous control of all events as evidence of his glory, we point to Jesus dying for the sins of the whole world, and his rising from the grave and triumphing over his enemies as the way that God has chosen to glorify himself. It is a glory hidden from the world, and that is precisely why many other Protestant groups do not have this as the center of their theology.



I'm OK with them being saved because of their faith, if they follow the light they have been given. This isn't incompatible with belief that Jesus is the savior of the world. But the truth is, we just don't know for sure... we only know that Jesus has promised to save those that believe in him.

It's ironic that people mention colorblindness among a list of other maladies... that's a condition I have too (I see only about ten percent the shades of green that most people do). In fact I have a half-dozen medical conditions, some of them quite painful and difficult to treat, like fibromyalgia. It would be easy for me to stew in self-pity, but by the grace of God, it doesn't always overwhelm me. I've got things that are worth far more than riches, fame, or good health... in fact sometimes its possible to see, by the grace of God, that all these struggles allow us to appreciate other things that ordinary people cannot. And it's not like that faith has come easy to me, I've struggled with doubt too... I think most Christians do from time to time . But that's why Jesus left us with a Church, where we gather, despite out doubts, to hear the Gospel and receive the sacraments, and to meet with our brothers and sisters in Christ.

god bless a good read.mike

 

[11god11]

Thanks, but I've spent about 30 years trying to get answers from 'seniors'. Pastors, grandmothers, theologians, young crusaders, Priests, etc. They claim to be able to answer any question, and claim to want to help. But they all cut and run, some after slamming doors.

its a tough choice for some.I was addicted to drugs in a gang heavily tattooed I weigh 100 kg ive been to the bottom.Jesus is the only thing in my life that has been positive if anything I need this.I cannot see the harm,and I believe that it has historical backing as well as spiritual.im happy how happy are you?thats not philosophical im just curious :]

 

[FireDragon76]

I think the stories people have of God speaking to them are interesting to listen to, and often inspiring. Many of them don't sound mundane.

I once met a woman at church, an older woman, that gave me a book called the Ragamuffin Gospel. It was so strange we would happen to meet, because that book was something I needed to hear at the time. And she was undergoing similar medical problems. We sat in the pew a few times together and became friends. I suggested she go to the healing service, and next Wednesday I saw her there, and the canon layed his hands on her and prayed for her after the service. A few Sundays later I saw her again and she walked without her usual walker and she told me that her brain tumor was gone and her knee didn't bother her anymore: she no longer needed the walker.

I have other stories like that but that one is probably the most dramatic. It's stories like that that, even in those times I struggle that it's hard to lose faith in God altogether.

 

[11god11]

I think the stories people have of God speaking to them are interesting to listen to, and often inspiring. Many of them don't sound mundane.

I once met a woman at church, an older woman, that gave me a book called the Ragamuffin Gospel. It was so strange we would happen to meet, because that book was something I needed to hear at the time. And she was undergoing similar medical problems. We sat in the pew a few times together and became friends. I suggested she go to the healing service, and next Wednesday I saw her there, and the canon layed his hands on her and prayed for her after the service. A few Sundays later I saw her again and she walked without her usual walker and she told me that her brain tumor was gone and her knee didn't bother her anymore: she no longer needed the walker.

I have other stories like that but that one is probably the most dramatic. It's stories like that that, even in those times I struggle that it's hard to lose faith in God altogether.

so true friend. god bless thanx for taking time to reply to me.

 

[Locutus]

its a tough choice for some.I was addicted to drugs in a gang heavily tattooed I weigh 100 kg ive been to the bottom.Jesus is the only thing in my life that has been positive if anything I need this.I cannot see the harm,and I believe that it has historical backing as well as spiritual.im happy how happy are you?thats not philosophical im just curious :]

Tattoos ain't bad, I wouldn't be ashamed of them. Ink has been an important part of human culture for thousands of years. Having ink is therefore traditional

Meantime, good to know you lost weight and ditched the drugs. Those two ARE bad news. Especially being obese. Because it will kill you, but also because it's sanctioned addiction. At least drugs are openly demonised.

Meantime, I have more happiness than I probably deserve, but then I'm a naturally cheerful and upbeat/high energy person. I don't really know what it is to be "blue" without a quantifiable stressor.

 

[Locutus]

I think you know.good luck with your life god bless.

Well I don't really. You may be wishing me luck finding A god, not necessarily your personally preferred god.

Someone once encouraged me to "seek god", so I did. When I told her I'd started actively seeking him, she was thrilled. When I later told her I'd almost finished the Koran, and was in sight if embracing Allah, she almost had a stroke. She hadn't specified a god, you see.

 

[ToBeLoved]

How does one 'seek him', please?

I dove into the bible (and church) with a clean palate, full neutral. I did not presuppose the god existed, nor did I presuppose the god didn't exist. I left myself entirely open to either possibility. Do you think that's a bad or dishonest approach to your god?

Also, if you do think it's the wrong approach, why do you do it with other religions?

Have you ever prayed and asked God to show you that He is real?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Meantime, I have more happiness than I probably deserve, but then I'm a naturally cheerful and upbeat/high energy person. I don't really know what it is to be "blue" without a quantifiable stressor.

You are blessed. This is a great attribute. Hang on to it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But doesn't God know that a demand of faith is simply unconvincing to me, and that no amount of appealing to what I am fairly convinced is essentially the same thing as gullibility will convince me to believe something? I'm essentially stuck - I'm not going to have faith, faith alone is never going to be convincing to me. I need something else. But more to the point, God knows this. He knows exactly what I need, even if I don't! So the fact that I don't believe indicates very clearly that God doesn't care. And if there is a literal hell, he clearly has no problems with me going there.

All of creation speaks to the glory and power of God.

Romans 1:20
…19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

 

[The Cadet]

I'm not sure I'd go that far in saying that we must first have faith. In fact, I think its the reverse. God draws us first before we believe. I attend a Lutheran church now days and they don't teach that people will themselves into belief. God initiates the relationship.

This is, unfortunately, part of the problem with these issues. If you don't believe in a literal hell, then this argument really loses a lot of its moral oomph, because if all that awaits me is annihilation, then oh well, that's sort of what I expected anyways, and it's not like God has any huge obligation to protect me from that. Depending on whether you believe God wants a relationship or not, this argument changes drastically. The incredible litany of disputes in Christian Doctrine make any talk about said doctrine necessary dependent on the various sectarian differences between disciplines. Which, in and of itself, should be a red flag, but that's an entirely different discussion.

But in this case, if God does reach out to us at first, then... Well, why are there non-believers? Why are there apostates? If God wants to draw us into belief, why the hiddenness? Like... You know the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?* The Vogons weren't omnipotent, but within about two minutes of them announcing their presence, every single person on earth knew that they existed and what they wanted. Even if we want to say he doesn't want to beat us over the head with evidence... If he wants to reach us, why doesn't he do so in a way that's clear?


*(If not: worth a read; they're reasonably short books and incredibly funny and thought-provoking, and I guarantee you they'll be at the local library, given their status as all-time Sci-Fi classics.)

On that point, I think you make a very good point that you can't just convince yourself to have faith, that's not how it works in my experience. But, I do think you can surrender to the possibility of having faith. That's what Pascal was talking about in his famous wager. By living as if we have faith, we become receptive to faith, but we can't create faith for ourselves.

Yeah... The "dulling of intellect" he talks about in that? I'd consider that a very real consequence of faith, one that people probably shouldn't be so willing to put up with.

The fact you are here debating these issues is actually a very good sign. It means on some level at least, you are a truth seeker, even if you are not consciously aware of it.

IMO any debate where you are incapable of learning something or unwilling to change your position is a waste of time. I'm very explicitly here looking for the truth, or at least to expand my understanding. You'd be shocked how many people mistake rational skepticism for closed-mindedness, and take an unwillingness to, say, take a cite from NaturalNews seriously as confirmation of that suspicion.

I don't think a scientific worldview is the only possible way to view the world. There are times when a scientific description falls short.

I can agree, if we add two words onto the end: thus far. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, after all. Go back a hundred years and show people a carefully-staged CGI film of a man turning into a lion, and people would probably think that a scientific description falls short in that case as well. Cure someone's leprosy, and they might consider it a miracle. If, in the future, we craft the technology to regrow amputated limbs, and that technology somehow traveled back in time to today, we'd probably marvel at the impossible thing where a scientific description "falls sort"... At least, for now.

I talked about this on a recent post in Whosoever Will, May Come. The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence. Church might seem like a chore but its not always a picnic to find something better to do.

For those who enjoy Church, it can be a very positive experience. I won't deny this; the sense of community generated there can be quite overwhelming. For others, it's a chore that they don't enjoy and would rather not put up with but must. I'm sure there are better examples of religious belief wasting one's time, but they're probably a little less obvious.

I don't think God created Hell as a cosmic torture chamber, in fact I don't think God created Hell at all. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, as it's written in Genesis. No mention of hell. Hell is just the natural state were are born into, due to ancestral sins, we are born spiritually dead- materialism is our default reality. And sometimes Hell is not torture, sometimes its a primrose path where we get everything we want but we lose our soul in the process.

This interpretation of the bible certainly makes your religious beliefs a heck of a lot more moral, I'll give you that. As said above, the countless different doctrinal schisms of Christianity makes discussing any "general" doctrine difficult.

I do believe the Bible contains the revelation of Jesus Christ. that right there is God communication with you: Jesus is the revelation of God. The rest, the personal experiences and synchronicities, are not nearly as important to consider.

I think this reflects fairly poorly on God. If he thinks a 2000-year-old book containing at least one story that is necessarily a legend or fable (Noah's flood simply did not happen as written, I think we can agree on that) and quite a few more which seem incredibly unrealistic, a book written by humans, translated (and horribly mistranslated) by humans countless times, and with hundreds of versions currently flying around is adequate, then he clearly doesn't understand how people think, or how evidence works for us. Dillahunty gave an excellent talk on exactly how bad of an idea this one is.

I think you miss something here. God is free of passions or vices like pride and vanity. If he wants us to worship him, it's for some other reason, other than his enjoyment.

The entity afishamongmany described is one which created a system wherein we exist primarily to praise it. That sounds incredibly vain to me.

I'm not a Calvinist so I don't believe God creates "pots" just to destroy them (that's a passage in Romans I think was taken well out of context, talking about a nation of people rather than an individual). There is a mystery to God's salvation, why some people believe and others don't, as somebody who attends a Lutheran church I can acknowledge that. But Lutherans also reject the idea that God creates anyone predestined to be destroyed, because we believe the witness of the Bible is against it. We don't point to speculative theology of God's meticulous control of all events as evidence of his glory, we point to Jesus dying for the sins of the whole world, and his rising from the grave and triumphing over his enemies as the way that God has chosen to glorify himself. It is a glory hidden from the world, and that is precisely why many other Protestant groups do not have this as the center of their theology.

Predestination is an entirely separate debate which I'd rather not get into here. But isn't it an issue that God could help convince us, but doesn't? I mean, surely He knows exactly what it would take to make me believe, right?

 

[11god11]

Well I don't really. You may be wishing me luck finding A god, not necessarily your personally preferred god.

Someone once encouraged me to "seek god", so I did. When I told her I'd started actively seeking him, she was thrilled. When I later told her I'd almost finished the Koran, and was in sight if embracing Allah, she almost had a stroke. She hadn't specified a god, you see.

you are very intelligent it is a gift.gb