God Doesn't Want Me To Know Him

Locutus said:

No matter which way you slice it, announcing that you have secured the personal attentions and affections of the creator of the universe is prideful. There is nothing humble about the aspirations and posturing of believers.

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I answered your question, why won't you answer mine?

AGTG said:

I answered your question, why won't you answer mine?

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Which question was that? About your religions list of rules (ten commandments)? You realise that only 6 - 9 have any universal utility, right? The rest are cultural and pertain to a particular sect and tribe.

But why do you want to know if I adhere to rules pertaining to someone else's religion? Why would I? Do you adhere to Islamic law?

Locutus said:

Which question was that? About your religions list of rules (ten commandments)? You realise that only 6 - 9 have any universal utility, right? The rest are cultural and pertain to a particular sect and tribe.

But why do you want to know if I adhere to rules pertaining to someone else's religion? Why would I? Do you adhere to Islamic law?

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The point is that you recognize you have transgressed God's law. Since Jesus is the only true God, that's the list you want to be concerned with.

AGTG said:

The point is that you recognize you have transgressed God's law. Since Jesus is the only true God, that's the list you want to be concerned with.

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Do you adhere to Islamic Law? If not, why not?

AGTG said:

Since Jesus is the only true God.

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Since Allah is the only true God. You see, anyone can say that about any god. Feeling it strongly in your waters doesn't make it so, unless you also believe in all the other gods people feel strongly in their waters. Do you?

Locutus said:

Do you adhere to Islamic Law? If not, why not?

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No, because Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one gets to Father God but through Him.

Locutus said:

Since Allah is the only true God. You see, anyone can say that about any god. Feeling it strongly in your waters doesn't make it so, unless you also believe in all the other gods people feel strongly in their waters. Do you?

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The fact that you spend the vast majority of your time trolling Christian forums should be proof enough about who the one, true, living God is.

Locutus said:

Which question was that? About your religions list of rules (ten commandments)? You realise that only 6 - 9 have any universal utility, right? The rest are cultural and pertain to a particular sect and tribe.

But why do you want to know if I adhere to rules pertaining to someone else's religion? Why would I? Do you adhere to Islamic law?

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You still haven't answered my question. You're only dilemma in this life is that you have sinned against God and will be held to account before it's all said and done. And your vain, self-centered arguments cannot stand before God. How many people have attempted to share the gospel with you on these forums, and your only desire is to mock and deride those with faith, which only proves you are the god of your own design, which is convenient as you will be very lenient upon yourself when you fail, you will rewrite the rules according to your own vain whims. But God's word stands as a testimony to the way you've lived.

AGTG said:

No, because Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one gets to Father God but through Him.

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So then, why do you ask if others adhere to your particular religious laws? It seems most inconsistent.

AGTG said:

The fact that you spend the vast majority of your time trolling Christian forums should be proof enough about who the one, true, living God is.

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I resent that remark. I spend just as much time "trolling" other Sci Fi forums!

Meanwhile, it's understandable that you feel a bit miffed about the dramatic change to the landscape these past few decades. I would too, if I'd had carte blanche primacy for 1500 years.

Locutus said:

I resent that remark. I spend just as much time "trolling" other Sci Fi forums!

Meanwhile, it's understandable that you feel a bit miffed about the dramatic change to the landscape these past few decades. I would too, if I'd had carte blanche primacy for 1500 years.

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With your own words you declare Biblical prophecy. The Bible said there was going to be a "falling away" right before Jesus' return. More than that, it prophesied that Israel would be gathered back together in a single day (and it was in the 1948 reformation of the nation). The Bible is true, and you would do well to take it seriously.

You call yourself a "seeker," but it appears you only seek to argue and harass Christians.

And, again, you've failed to acknowledge how you have transgressed God's laws as I've originally asked. You need to turn your self-centeredness into self-examination. You might just get convicted by the Holy Spirit and repent.

Then you won't be arguing against Christians, but you will be testifying to God's merciful grace upon one who so contentiously attacked the very faith he now embraces.

As for this conversation, it's not worth my time because you aren't even forthright enough to answer a simple question.

AGTG said:

You still haven't answered my question. You're only dilemma in this life is that you have sinned against God and will be held to account before it's all said and done. And your vain, self-centered arguments cannot stand before God. How many people have attempted to share the gospel with you on these forums, and your only desire is to mock and deride those with faith, which only proves you are the god of your own design, which is convenient as you will be very lenient upon yourself when you fail, you will rewrite the rules according to your own vain whims. But God's word stands as a testimony to the way you've lived.

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Sorry, which gods have I 'sinned' against? I'm assuming you mean your personal favourite (Yahweh), but we have to consider that if I've annoyed him, then I've probably annoyed other gods, too. That makes the whole picnic something of a .... circus! I mean, where to start?

My vain self-centred acceptance of my own insignificance and mortality? Oh yeah, it's outta control.

I don't even know what "sharing gospel" means. All I require to embrace yours or anyone else's god is evidence, followed by a clear demonstration of merit. All I need is a provable god, who is demonstrably worthy of admiration. Just as I'd do with any person or entity entrusted with my own or my children's welfare. I'm not vain enough to skip the merit test in favour of feeding my lusts (for immortality and attention from the gods). I am vain, don't get me wrong, but not THAT vain, and certainly not when the welfare of my children is concerned.

AGTG said:

With your own words you declare Biblical prophecy. The Bible said there was going to be a "falling away" right before Jesus' return. More than that, it prophesied that Israel would be gathered back together in a single day (and it was in the 1948 reformation of the nation). The Bible is true, and you would do well to take it seriously.

You call yourself a "seeker," but it appears you only seek to argue and harass Christians.

And, again, you've failed to acknowledge how you have transgressed God's laws as I've originally asked. You need to turn your self-centeredness into self-examination. You might just get convicted by the Holy Spirit and repent.

Then you won't be arguing against Christians, but you will be testifying to God's merciful grace upon one who so contentiously attacked the very faith he now embraces.

As for this conversation, it's not worth my time because you aren't even forthright enough to answer a simple question.

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1) Sorry, what do old traditions and 'prophecies' have to do with anything? there are millions of such, and I'm sure we could find one to suit every occasion. I know some gems from Buddhism, for example.

2) I am a seeker after true things. I adapt to truth when it's presented to me. Empirically.

3) I have no doubt I've transgressed your particular god's laws. I've also transgressed thousands of other laws of other gods, as have you. We're all in this together, as they say.

4) Okay.

PS: there really is no need to use the word 'attacked'. it does seem a little hysterical - and after all, you should be thanking us for not treating believers the way believers have treated us. I reckon we're doing a reasonable job of peacefully presenting our challenges via the internet

AGTG said:

As for this conversation, it's not worth my time because you aren't even forthright enough to answer a simple question.

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Sigh. And so we reach the standard impasse.

Honestly, if you want to 'share the gospel' (again, don't really know what that means), with non-believers, why do you give up at the first - and quite reasonable - challenge? I've seen and heard this so many times, that I can't help assuming there is a serious problem in the way people are prepared to evangelise. It seems as though they're only prepared for preaching to the converted, which is frankly bizarre to me. If conversion is the goal, why aren't believers sent out armed with answers to the challenges we see in 2016? The very challenges being presented here. I mean good answers, not threats and waffle. Answers which demonstrate the gods' worthiness in a convincing way, as opposed to "just take my word for it". In this day and age, no one is going to take your word for it. The internet has ended the era of authoritarian indoctrination via isolation.

You must work harder, now ... that's all. But then you say it's not worth it. I hope for your sake your god doesn't interpret that in a way which is not in your favour.

StanJ said:

They are mistaken but I have no idea if they absolutely know.

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If they're mistaken, then by definition they can't know.

StanJ said:

I do.

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And they say you don't, and they do. What's a way that anyone can confirm that you do know what you say you know?

StanJ said:

I can tell you one thing that no other religions have an answer to, as I have asked many of them, is, 'where is your god'? They all say that so I'm not really sure how much of a god that is they can't defeat death. My god did and has totally. None of the other gods Our Saviors throughout history have done so. I can tell you that on a one-on-one with any religion that I've ever come across, they're winning percentage is 0%.

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And people from other religions can point to aspects of their faith that Christianity doesn't share and deem them as important as you deem aspects of yours. None of it is proof that any particular religion is correct.

StanJ said:

Now how you keep this about you and your perspectives, and stop deflecting to other issues that have nothing to do with this issue.

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Establishing that someone actually knows something that they claim to know is important, wouldn't you say?

Locutus said:

If conversion is the goal, why aren't believers sent out armed with answers to the challenges we see in 2016?

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I don't think that, for the majority of apologists, coherent answers to challenges are even necessary. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard "It's not me but the holy spirit that convinces you." after the theist has made astoundingly bad arguments I'd have... maybe... $2.85 or so...

ToddNotTodd said:

I don't think that, for the majority of apologists, coherent answers to challenges are even necessary. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard "It's not me but the holy spirit that convinces you." after the theist has made astoundingly bad arguments I'd have... maybe... $2.85 or so...

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Coherent answers are very necessary, in 2016. They weren't in 1950.

There's an awful, lazy arrogance to the failure of evangelists to lift their game. And they add to it by getting angry when the old tropes no longer wash.

I suppose it's like any other lazy arrogance - we're peeved when it comes back to bite us. And it ALWAYS comes back to bite us.

StanJ said:

Yeah sadly I've heard this from more than a few atheists so I'm not really convinced. I think it's a ploy, nothing more. Just as I think there are no true atheists which you've proven because a true atheists wouldn't even bother reading the Bible or any other Holy scripture for that matter.

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Hi there!

True atheist over here.

The Cadet said:

Can I go to a certain glade and hear his wisdom?

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That might not be a bad start.

What I'm looking for is unambiguous evidence that this entity who allegedly wants a relationship with me and values me decently exists.

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I doubt you are going to find "unambiguous evidence" that can't be defeated by some sort of argument. In my experience, people rarely reason their way to faith if they have something weighing on their hearts that is unacknowledged.

A Damascus Road experience was good enough for Saul; what makes him more worthy of salvation than me?

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Saul was not saved because he was worthy. None of us merit salvation. On the contrary, God often goes after the worst sorts of people to save (let's keep in mind that Saul was basically the iron age equivalent of an ISIS iihadi, he was indeed a murderer). And God chooses to save those people in that manner according to his purposes, not ours.

These things that seem so meaningful from her perspective... Don't they just sound incredibly mundane?

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I have no time to listen to that radio program, sorry. But I think I know where you are headed. And I don't really have an answer that will knock your socks off. "Coincidences" or rather synchronicities have been taken seriously by many people of intelligence, such as Carl Jung, as evidence of something deeper going on than just some kind of random, blind luck.

I can't help but wonder how many other people who hear god speaking to them or have had god work wonders in their lives are in a similar boat.

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You see the glass half-empty, I see it as half-full. I choose to see it as half-full, even when I can't be sure I see the glass clearly at all. Because, in the end, I have nothing to lose by doing so, and everything to gain. I'm not talking about pitting one religions doctrines against another here (I admit, I choose to remain a Christian at times for somewhat pragmatic reasons), I'm just talking about being open to the possibility of an expanded moral and aesthetic vision that religion and spirituality offers, vs. just accepting the world as nothing more than what can be defined by whatever the current scientific consensus is.

And in my experience, there's something quite powerful about all those "coincidences". Maybe not undeniable. I don't believe God usually wants to hit us over the head and compel us to believe, as in the case of Saul on the road to Damascus. But there's something there usually whispering to us and inviting us. We can't hear that if our own voice must be the loudest.

I have not, no. Care to summarize some of the key points?

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It's not an apologetic, and not really out to prove that God exists. But it does talk about what exactly Christians, and specifically Charismatic Christians, are getting out of their religious experiences, from a sociological and wider scientific perspective. And it does analyze the "method" that Charismatic Christians use to obtain that sort of awareness of God's presence and engage in a relationship with God, and looks at it in terms of the psychology and sociology, primarily. There's a great history of the theology of Christian mysticism there, too.