God Doesn't Want Me To Know Him

[John Davidson]

Romans 1:20-21
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[John Davidson]

Read this book it proves the existence of God: http://www.christianbook.com/darwin...Ntt=99251&item_code=&Ntk=keywords&event=ESRCP

 

[Light of the East]

I have not been presented with convincing evidence that a god exists.

Any omniscient, omnipotent god would know exactly what would be necessary to convince me, and would be easily able to make that happen.

Ergo, assuming that God exists, God necessarily has no interest in whether or not I am convinced of his existence.

Now, if we assume a literal hell, wouldn't this be a horrific moral oversight on God's end?

First of all, I understand your struggles because I have thought of folks like you and wondered the same thing: why doesn't God give them what they need to believe.

But then I think of several things:

Jesus, who claimed to be God, did some absolutely astounding miracles. Healing those born blind. Raising the dead three times, the last time a man who had been in the grave for four days and should by then be quite smelly.

Did the Jewish leaders say "That's the proof we need! It's Him, the One we have been waiting for! Hallelujah!"

Uhhhhhhh.....no! Actually they conspired to kill Lazarus and became foaming at the mouth mad at Jesus.

Then there is the famous case of Lourdes and the French atheist/writer/philosopher, Emile Zola.

Zola attached himself to an 18-year-old girl named Marie Lemarchand who was afflicted with three seemingly incurable diseases: an advanced stage of lupus, pulmonary tuberculosis, and leg ulcerations the size of an adult’s hand. Zola describes the girl’s face on the way to Lourdes as being eaten away by the lupus: “The whole was a frightful distorted mass of matter and oozing blood.” The girl went into the baths and emerged completely cured. One of the doctors present wrote, “On her return from the baths I at once followed her to the hospital. I recognized her well although her face was entirely changed.” The doctors who examined her could also find nothing wrong with her lungs, both of which had been infected with tuberculosis, causing the patient to cough and spit blood. Sixteen years later, she was still in perfect health and the cure was designated as official.

Zola was there when she came out of the baths. He had said, “I only want to see a cut finger dipped in water and come out healed.” The President of the Medical Bureau, Dr. Boissarie, was standing beside him. “Ah, Monsieur Zola, behold the case of your dreams!” “I don’t want to look at her,” replied Zola. “To me she is still ugly.” And he walked away.

Zola demanded a sign. God put him "all in" and called his bluff and Zola proved that he was a liar and not really interested in converting or changing his life.

Finally, I want to give you something to chew upon. I was, between the ages of 18 and 22, a self-professed atheist also. During that time, I had more than one conversation with Christians. Do you know why I turned away and argued against them so fiercely?

Because I knew in my heart of hearts that if I converted that was the end of drugs, free-wheeling sex with anyone, and drunken parties. There is a pithy saying which goes "All atheism starts below the belt" which was very true in my case. I'm not saying it necessarily is in yours, but examine yourself. Are you perhaps also afraid of the unknown, of the change which is inevitable if you do really open yourself to God's grace?

If perhaps you have seen Christians who disgust you and make you not want to have anything to do with the faith, then I would challenge you to convert and lead the way. You will find that it is a much more challenging life than you realize, but it does have its rewards, both here and in the next life. The "fun" I thought I was having turned out to be like a pet alligator - it turned on me and almost killed me. Today I enjoy more peace of heart than all my wild living ever gave me.

I hope I may have said something worth considering.

 

[StanJ]

Like a great many other atheists, I have read the bible. It was unconvincing, to put it nicely. That's sort of the thing, isn't it? If god is real, I'd very much like to know, but nothing I've seen yet offers any indication to that fact. It's not my disinterest that's holding me back from belief; I've spent a lot of time looking for evidence and come up blank. I even asked for a sign when my faith was faltering and found none.
So it comes back to the topic of the thread. If God wanted me to believe, he'd know exactly what he has to do to convince me. The fact he hasn't done so yet indicates to me that he doesn't care, or doesn't want me to believe. Isn't is a horrific ethical lapse on his part, akin to leaving a child alone near the edge of the tiger pit?

No really I understand why you would read the Bible if you don't believe in God but more power to you I guess. Maybe God will make something real to you that will allow you to move into a better understanding. Like I said God is already done all he deems necessary to convince mankind but if individuals choose to not accept that evidence then that's on them. The whole thing about Facebook is that you actually have to start with faith. I guess it's not a whole lot different than when somebody tells you they love you.... you believe them, you have faith that they are telling you the truth. It's the same way with God's word. John 3:16 Says that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever should believe in him should not perish but have eternal life. That depicts God's love, that depicts God's salvation. If we choose not to believe him or believe the actual fact that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified by the Romans and back around 30 AD, then that's our choice. The longer we deny the reality of God the harder it will be for us to turn around and face him. He has done all that is necessary for us to believe in him.

 

[StanJ]

Actually the proper place to start is at the beginning.

Yes and as we are under the New Covenant the New Testament is the beginning.

 

[StanJ]

Does your opinion about other faiths mean anything?

To who? I guess it depends on the circumstances. If I am witnessing to a member of another faith then they're probably not very interested in my opinion of their faith but as such I wouldn't be giving them an opinion about their faith, I would be giving them the truth about my faith.

 

[StanJ]

Off topic, but is this true?
If so, I'm very impressed! I've had heated debates with Christians about just who identifies one as a Christian in the human sphere, the self or others. I'm repeatedly informed (often emphatically), that it's NOT a self-identification.

I'm pretty sure that only applies when they are on "Christians only" forums, but it's always best to report those things and allow the mods to do their job. There is usually a link at the top of every page that goes directly to the rules so you can always check them out for yourself there.

 

[StanJ]

It strikes me that a god who hides itself then demands we find it (before it will bestow any attention upon us) is the self-absorbed one. Any being interested in a two way relationship - as any worthwhile relationship will be - would make some effort in the initial flirtation.

The whole point is he doesn't hide himself from those who really want to see him. The demographics clearly show that atheism is claimed by about 4% of adults in the U.S. whereas about 71% claim to be Christian. Now based on these figures who do you think has the perception problem?

 

[StanJ]

So it's the desire to believe which is crucial, not so much the individual godhead or book? This would work equally well for any faith, in that case.
Also, there are no signs on the highway to ignore. Or rather, there are a thousand per kilometre.
Finally, free will? Did your god plan everything that would happen? Does your god know what you will do before you do it?

Not so much the desire than the openness of heart. God draws everyone to his son so the fact that some respond and some don't has more to do with their own heart condition than it has to do with desire. Signs and wonders accompany those that believe, they don't precede them.
No God didn't plan everything but everything that has transpired since creation he foreknew. What he did plan was making all those that believed and accepted his son, to be like his son. Of course that plan only works in individual lives if they submit to it and obey Him. We all have free will.

 

[StanJ]

Right, so not a two way relationship at all. More master/servant.

No but of course as you're not one you wouldn't understand but the relationship is Father / Child.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

The human body is so complex there is no way that it did not have an intelligent designer.

God is so complex, there is no way he did not have an intelligent designer.

 

[Hank77]

Finally, free will? Did your god plan everything that would happen? Does your god know what you will do before you do it?

No God did/does not plan everything that would/will happen.

Jer 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons with fire, burnt-offerings to Baal, that I commanded not, nor spake of, nor did it come up on My heart.
Jer 32:35 And they build the high places of Baal, that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.

Does God know everything that will happen? I believe He knows everything that can be known, and seeing that He knows our thoughts, our past actions, His plan, etc., there is a lot that He knows. Therefore, He has plenty of oppositions for getting His plan accomplished without overstepping our free will.

 

[blessedbeyondbelief]

"Everyone who is seriously interested in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe – a spirit vastly superior to man, and one in the face of which our modest powers must seem humble." -Albert Einstein

 

[Nithavela]

Off topic, but is this true?

If so, I'm very impressed! I've had heated debates with Christians about just who identifies one as a Christian in the human sphere, the self or others. I'm repeatedly informed (often emphatically), that it's NOT a self-identification.

Basically, as long as the faith tag says anything christian, you can't say that they are in truth not a christian.

Of course I don't think self-identification is everything, but what else should one go by on this forum, so there's that.

 

[Nithavela]

you seem to be quite anti anything Christian.why are you here if you don't want to find god.i was a hard drug user,heavily tattooed and he saved me .perhaps the devil has blinded you friend.get on your knees say the sinners prayer and do it with every inch of your heart,mind and soul...truly repent and he will save you.do it.

You're one of those mind-reading christians, right?

 

[11god11]

You're one of those mind-reading christians, right?

 

[11god11]

nope,i just don't understand that you find someone being a Christian so aggravating.beleive what you want.god is real believe what you need to.god bless

 

[SkyWriting]

I have not been presented with convincing evidence that a god exists.Any omniscient, omnipotent god would know exactly what would be necessary to convince me, and would be easily able to make that happen.Ergo, assuming that God exists, God necessarily has no interest in whether or not I am convinced of his existence.Now, if we assume a literal hell, wouldn't this be a horrific moral oversight on God's end?

Hell is nothing more or less than your everlasting soul existing without God.
The "torment" described here and there is internal torment.
If is was some "external" torment, you'd always have the mind-easing relief of somebody external to be angry at.

Is there some reason you're not at peace now?

 

[The Cadet]

Look at your eye in the mirror.

If that's not enough evidence then there is no helping you.

God already gave you all the evidence you need. He made the Sun.

The human body is so complex there is no way that it did not have an intelligent designer.

Guys, pro tip: if you think this is evidence, try constructing a sound logical syllogism with it, i.e.:

P1: The eye exists
P2: ...
P3: ...
...
C: Therefore God exists

I don't think you can. The existence of my eye is not evidence of God. It's evidence of the existence of my eye. The existence of the sun is not evidence of God. It's evidence of the existence of the sun. Even if we didn't have a pretty darn clear idea of where these things came from (from cosmology and evolutionary biology, respectively), the default answer is not "god did it".

Did the Jewish leaders say "That's the proof we need! It's Him, the One we have been waiting for! Hallelujah!"

Uhhhhhhh.....no! Actually they conspired to kill Lazarus and became foaming at the mouth mad at Jesus.

And this is another reason I consider that story to be laughably implausible. Someone rises from the dead, and the first thing these people think is, "Wow, we'd better cover it up and not change a single thing about our perceptions of the world!" It's like the story in Exodus, where God performs dozens of great and terrible miracles, visible to everyone, leads the Hebrews out of Egypt, feeds them manna from heaven, and then when he and his prophet disappear for a few weeks, everyone turns around and says, "Eh, that god was nice, but let's make up a new god!" Does that sound like rational behavior to you? Does that sound even remotely like the way humans would behave when faced with that sort of miraculous event? Christians often bring this up as evidence that nothing will convince the non-believer, but at this point I'm pretty sure it's better evidence that the story is not quite being honest about something.

Then there is the famous case of Lourdes and the French atheist/writer/philosopher, Emile Zola.

Lourdes has... problems. As usual, there's the typical issue of "how do we verify this". To my knowledge, there has never been a single, unambiguous, well-documented case of a disease going into remission that never does that on its own, and the actual rate of healing there is tiny, and has been sinking in clear correlation with our understanding of medicine. I can't confirm or deny the particular story of Mr. Zola. But here's what I can say. Let's assume that all of the reported cases are accurate. How do we know what causes them?

This is, in my eyes, the biggest issue: supernatural causation. Assuming the truth of the miracle claims, we have something for which we currently have no good explanation. What's causing it? And how can we make any definitive statement about it? Even just within Christian theology, what if those visions leading to the spring were caused not by the Virgin Mary, but by Satan, who has taken the opportunity to infect a whole bunch of people with Norovirus and other diseases? I don't know how we could possibly tell the difference.

But that's why I started this thread. Like I said, I don't even know what evidence for your specific God concept would look like. I'm not sure what evidence could convince me. But you know who does know for sure? And could provide that evidence within seconds? God. So the fact that he hasn't done so indicates that he either can't, or isn't interested in me believing.

Finally, I want to give you something to chew upon. I was, between the ages of 18 and 22, a self-professed atheist also. During that time, I had more than one conversation with Christians. Do you know why I turned away and argued against them so fiercely?

Because I knew in my heart of hearts that if I converted that was the end of drugs, free-wheeling sex with anyone, and drunken parties. There is a pithy saying which goes "All atheism starts below the belt" which was very true in my case. I'm not saying it necessarily is in yours, but examine yourself. Are you perhaps also afraid of the unknown, of the change which is inevitable if you do really open yourself to God's grace?

Not really. I'd miss the hookers and blow ( ), but for me this really is about an honest search for the truth.

The "torment" described here and there is internal torment.

...Does that make it less of a torment?

 

[John Davidson]

Guys, pro tip: if you think this is evidence, try constructing a sound logical syllogism with it, i.e.:

P1: The eye exists
P2: ...
P3: ...
...
C: Therefore God exists

I don't think you can. The existence of my eye is not evidence of God. It's evidence of the existence of my eye. The existence of the sun is not evidence of God. It's evidence of the existence of the sun. Even if we didn't have a pretty darn clear idea of where these things came from (from cosmology and evolutionary biology, respectively), the default answer is not "god did it".

There is no way these things (human body, the sun, etc.) came into existence through evolution. The creation was clearly designed by an intelligent designer. Think about how complex your body is man. Come on man use your brain. Speaking of the brain how complex is that? And it's just one part of the amazing human body. God is an awesome architect.