"God doesn't owe you anything" is a destructive doctrine.

[Jamdoc]

So hypothetically, when you die and go to heaven and Christ told you you were never part of Israel blessings and covenants, how do you think you would respond?

an impossibility, because the word of God says

Galatians 3

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

again
we do not replace
we are grafted in we're joined to Israel
Every believer will have a place in the New Jerusalem, Jew or Gentile.

it's not 2 families of God, it's one family. Some branches of the tree are Jewish, some are Gentile, all were grafted in and the root is Christ.

 

[Guojing]

an impossibility, because the word of God says

Galatians 3


again
we do not replace
we are grafted in we're joined to Israel
Every believer will have a place in the New Jerusalem, Jew or Gentile.

it's not 2 families of God, it's one family. Some branches of the tree are Jewish, some are Gentile, all were grafted in and the root is Christ.

Alright, I will hope to see you say that later in heaven.

By the way Israel descended from Jacob.

And even though Jacob came from Abraham, Abraham had many other children other than with Sarah (Genesis 25:1–6).

So when you quote Galatians 3:29, there is no necessary link between being Abraham's seed, which we certainly are by that verse, and being part of Israel.

But okay, we can agree to disagree on this, cheers.

 

[Jamdoc]

Alright, I will hope to see you say that later in heaven.

By the way Israel descended from Jacob.

And even though Jacob came from Abraham, Abraham had many other children other than with Sarah (Genesis 25:1–6).

So when you quote Galatians 3:29, there is no necessary link between being Abraham's seed, which we certainly are by that verse, and being part of Israel.

But okay, we can agree to disagree on this, cheers.

The unconditional covenant was made with Abraham, it was renewed with Isaac and Jacob but was established with Abraham.

 

[Guojing]

The unconditional covenant was made with Abraham, it was renewed with Isaac and Jacob but was established with Abraham.

God made more than one covenant, made various promises with Abraham, you do realized that?

And not all those covenants and promises were unconditional.

There is a reason why the nation of Israel needed to have 3 fathers

1. Abraham is their father whom received the mark of circumcision to separate them from the rest of the world (Genesis 17:10-14, Romans 11:1)
2. Isaac is their father whom was the child of promise (Romans 9:7-9)
3. Jacob is their father whom was the elect one of God (Romans 9:11-13).

For us gentiles in the Body of Christ,

1. Abraham is certainly our father in faith (Galatians 3:29),
2. We are linked to Isaac only in the sense of also being children of promise, like he is (Galatians 4:28), but he is not our father in any way

But here is the kicker, we have zero connection with Jacob, according to Paul at least. And Israel came from Jacob.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

turn the page, first words: "Thus sayeth the LORD"

That's why I love theology. People see what they want to see.

Novel rule tho so points for being well out of the mainstream

You do see the new heaven and earth matter is still in the next chapter, right?

Personally this is one of my favorite verses, from Isaiah 66

4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them

I'll tell ya, if God lays a delusion on anyone it's unlikely to come off

 

[Clare73]

yes I'm not a replacement theologist.
but some are and claim the Church is the New Israel that God rescinded His covenants with Israel

Keeping in mind the Mosaic covenant with Israel was conditional, and they broke it (Jer 11:10).
The Mosaic covenant is now obsolete (Heb 8:13).
God has made a (promised) new covenant (Jer 31:31-34) with his one people of the one olive tree (Ro 11:17-23), both Jew and Christian, from which tree unbelieving Israel has been cut off (Ro 11:17), but whose destiny is to be grafted back in with the believing Gentiles. . .IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23). Unbelieving Israel are not the people of God, they are cut off. God has only one people, those of faith in Jesus Christ, both Jew and Gentile.

and gave them to the Church instead
they don't even blink at the idea of God reneging on promises.
Like they think God changed His mind that's okay

Keeping in mind that God didn't change his mind, rather Israel broke the covenant (Jer 11:10) conditioned on obedience, thereby rendering it obsolete (Heb 8:13).

okay well then how does that pan out for God's promises to us? If God has a precedent of reneging on promises He made to others,

God has not reneged on his promises to anyone.
Rather Israel reneged on their obedience, the condition of the covenant, thereby breaking the covenant (Jer 11:10), rendering it obsolete (Heb 8:13) and their being cut off the one olive tree of God's people (Ro 11:17, Jer 11:16).
Therefore, God has made a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34) with his people, they being only those who believe in his Son.
Only those who believe in the Son are the people of God, and all are welcome to join through faith in the Son.

 

[Jamdoc]

That's why I love theology. People see what they want to see.

Novel rule tho so points for being well out of the mainstream

You do see the new heaven and earth matter is still in the next chapter, right?

Personally this is one of my favorite verses, from Isaiah 66

4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them

I'll tell ya, if God lays a delusion on anyone it's unlikely to come off

That's not on the New Earth though
Isaiah 66 is famous for having the nation born in a day which most people attribute to 1948's establishment of the state of Israel.

the "thus sayeth the LORD" is a transitional clause
it can show that we're changing topic to something else, which is what it does in this case, no longer talking about the idealized new earth that He had been talking about.

There is no transition clause to indicate topic change from New Earth to Millennial Kingdom in the verse you identify as being Millennial Kingdom.

 

[Jamdoc]

Keeping in mind the Mosaic covenant with Israel was conditional, and they broke it (Jer 11:10).
The Mosaic covenant is now obsolete (Heb 8:13).
God has made a (promised) new covenant (Jer 31:31-34) with his one people of the one olive tree (Ro 11:17-23), both Jew and Christian, from which tree unbelieving Israel has been cut off (Ro 11:17), but whose destiny is to be grafted back in with the believing Gentiles. . .IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23). Unbelieving Israel are not the people of God, they are cut off. God has only one people, those of faith in Jesus Christ, both Jew and Gentile.

Keeping in mind that God didn't change his mind, rather Israel broke the covenant (Jer 11:10) conditioned on obedience, thereby rendering it obsolete (Heb 8:13).

God has not reneged on his promises to anyone.
Rather Israel reneged on their obedience, the condition of the covenant, thereby breaking the covenant (Jer 11:10), rendering it obsolete (Heb 8:13) and their being cut off the one olive tree of God's people (Ro 11:17, Jer 11:16).
Therefore, God has made a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34) with his people, they being only those who believe in his Son.
Only those who believe in the Son are the people of God, and all are welcome to join through faith in the Son.

The Abrahamic covenant was unconditional.

 

[Clare73]

The Abrahamic covenant was unconditional.

The Abrahamic covenant of Ge 17 to be their God, as well as the Mosaic covenant, were conditional (Ge 17:4, 9).

 

[Guojing]

The Abrahamic covenant of Ge 17 to be their God, as well as the Mosaic covenant, were conditional (Ge 17:4, 9).

Yes, many people, thanks to Paul in Galatians 3, think about Genesis 15:1-6 as the only covenant God made with Abraham. But that is not true from scripture.

Abraham is not just a pattern for us gentiles in the Body of Christ who are righteousness by faith alone, without physical circumcision, as Paul would explained there. These are the stars of heaven (Genesis 15:5). It was important for us that Abraham received that before he was physically circumcised.

He is also a pattern for the Jews of Israel who are in a covenant with God because of physical circumcision in Genesis 17:10-14,. These are the sand of the Earth. (Genesis 22:17).

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

That's not on the New Earth though
Isaiah 66 is famous for having the nation born in a day which most people attribute to 1948's establishment of the state of Israel.

Uh, nix

Isaiah 66:
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

The Head of the Nation was already delivered, first

The remaining body comes later

 

[contratodo]

How about we each get our own firmament to live under, on an eternal ocean.

This current firmament gets destroyed, and the city of heaven comes down. Revelation 21:2
A new firmament is made around the city.

Everything is on an eternal ocean, the great deep.

In one part there is the lake of fire, a chasm of lava and fire with water constantly rushing in,
but so hot that the water immediately steams off.
It was fully made ready during the destruction of the first sky,
the sea that was under the first sky, is first to get sucked into the lake of fire.

Being immortal the saints could still enter the city that came down by walking through/on the fire.

In time the saints exit the new sky, by walking through it, to find that there are vast other sky's, other domes
to live under. All on an eternal ocean. Each saint has their own firmament to live under,
and there is an eternal parade that happens before the throne of God under the first new sky.
At whatever time a saint chooses they can go back to that firmament and join the parade,
worshiping God. In this manner all humanity can have their time directly before Him,
all new born and all who desire to just be in His presence, a continual eternal parade before His throne.
It's just one of the many things to do during eternity. Having babies, playing with animals, eating with family,
visiting/building new places, there will be an eternal amount of new places, new firmaments made for babies born to live under,
all on an eternal ocean. For God has already written eternity in our hearts, that is, we already know what we want to do forever.

And one must understand, being in the direct presence of God,
one would have the feeling of ultimate fulfillment, and ultimate pleasure.

For at Thy right hand there are pleasures forevermore. Psalm 16:11

 

[Jamdoc]

How about we each get our own firmament to live under, on an eternal ocean.

This current firmament gets destroyed, and the city of heaven comes down. Revelation 21:2
A new firmament is made around the city.

Everything is on an eternal ocean, the great deep.

In one part there is the lake of fire, a chasm of lava and fire with water constantly rushing in,
but so hot that the water immediately steams off.
It was fully made ready during the destruction of the first sky,
the sea that was under the first sky, is first to get sucked into the lake of fire.

Being immortal the saints could still enter the city that came down by walking through/on the fire.

In time the saints exit the new sky, by walking through it, to find that there are vast other sky's, other domes
to live under. All on an eternal ocean. Each saint has their own firmament to live under,
and there is an eternal parade that happens before the throne of God under the first new sky.
At whatever time a saint chooses they can go back to that firmament and join the parade,
worshiping God. In this manner all humanity can have their time directly before Him,
all new born and all who desire to just be in His presence, a continual eternal parade before His throne.
It's just one of the many things to do during eternity. Having babies, playing with animals, eating with family,
visiting/building new places, there will be an eternal amount of new places, new firmaments made for babies born to live under,
all on an eternal ocean. For God has already written eternity in our hearts, that is, we already know what we want to do forever.

And one must understand, being in the direct presence of God,
one would have the feeling of ultimate fulfillment, and ultimate pleasure.

For at Thy right hand there are pleasures forevermore. Psalm 16:11

The bible doesn't teach such things
God didn't promise such things.

God promises a New Earth, a world without a curse.

It's like, people just make things up rather than just take what scripture says and believe that as a promise.

 

[contratodo]

God promises a New Earth, a world without a curse.

What curse do you see in what I wrote?
I'm clearly repeatedly talking about being immortal, I really don't see where you see any curse in what I wrote.

The great deep was first, water was first, that is Genesis 1:1 and Proverbs 8:23-24.

The lake of fire is spoken of in Revelation 20:13-15.

That this earth is destroyed by fire is spoken of in Isaiah 30 and 2 Peter 3:8-12.
I believe Revelation 20:9 is where we can place 2 Peter 3:8-12, the result is the lake of fire.
The first heaven and earth pass away, by fire. That is what the Bible says.

Jesus said He goes to prepare a place for us, what do you think that means?
An apartment? Or a world of our own, does not He say we get to sit on His throne? Rev 3:21

 

[The Liturgist]

And one must understand, being in the direct presence of God,
one would have the feeling of ultimate fulfillment, and ultimate pleasure.

God’s love is a consuming fire and would be an unbearable torment for those who hate Him - thus the Outer Darkness is itself an act of mercy by God, the chief torment of which is missing out on the joy experienced by those who love God and are able to receive His love.

 

[The Liturgist]

It's just one of the many things to do during eternity. Having babies, playing with animals, eating with family,
visiting/building new places, there will be an eternal amount of new places, new firmaments made for babies born to live under,
all on an eternal ocean. For God has already written eternity in our hearts, that is, we already know what we want to do forever.

There is a very strong scriptural basis to doubt that we will be emgaged in reproduction in the World to Come. The only groups I know of who teach this as a doctrine are those related to Mormonism, such as the LDS and the Communities of Christ. It seems unlikely given the answer our Lord provided to the Sadducees regarding the status of re-married people in the World to Come in Mark 12:18-27 and the equivalent pericopes in Matthew and Luke.

Since we will neither be married nor given in marriage in the World to Come, reproduction therein could only occur as fornication, which is unimaginable. And since we will be like the angels, according to Christ our True God, and the angels do not reproduce, that is further evidence that the World to Come does not include reproduction.

 

[Jamdoc]

What curse do you see in what I wrote?
I'm clearly repeatedly talking about being immortal, I really don't see where you see any curse in what I wrote.

That's not what I meant, I meant that it's a common idea that instead of the New Earth that God promises, people believe that you just stand in God's presence staring at Him in awe for all eternity singing praise and that's all you'll ever want and that's total fulfillment, and some people go so far as to say that everyone is in God's presence and their salvation status determines whether being in that presence is heaven or hell.

Which is what it seemed to be what you were conveying.

and what I was saying is.. that's not what the bible teaches God is going to do.

That's what I find so important and why I'm a stickler on this. Speculation is okay because we don't fully know yet, but it should absolutely be bible based, and if the speculation conflicts with the bible then it has to be let go of as fantasy.

For instance the popular idea that we just stay in heaven as spirits forever, the bible teaches a physical resurrection in new bodies on a new earth. Any idea about just dying and going to heaven forever and living as a non corporeal being should be let go.

The great deep was first, water was first, that is Genesis 1:1 and Proverbs 8:23-24.

The lake of fire is spoken of in Revelation 20:13-15.

That this earth is destroyed by fire is spoken of in Isaiah 30 and 2 Peter 3:8-12.
I believe Revelation 20:9 is where we can place 2 Peter 3:8-12, the result is the lake of fire.
The first heaven and earth pass away, by fire. That is what the Bible says.

Jesus said He goes to prepare a place for us, what do you think that means?
An apartment? Or a world of our own, does not He say we get to sit on His throne? Rev 3:21

We will be ruling on the New Earth that's a big part of it, all the promises of Jesus of rewards involve delegated authority in His kingdom, as that is the reason man was even created according to God in Genesis, to have dominion of the Earth, to till the ground, to dress the garden and to keep it.
I'd also bear in mind just how much language the bible uses agricultural language, it seems that God's idea of man's purpose, and what God's will for us to ultimately do to serve Him, involves a lot of farming and tending to animals and building things.

as for the place Jesus is preparing, I don't know the full extent but it does seem to be largely the New Jerusalem, as that comes down from where Jesus was preparing it. As to whether it involves an apartment, a mansion, or whatever, kinda irrelevant honestly if people are right that there is no making new families and having children on the New Earth and we're all just single Eunuchs for eternity, what use is anything more than a studio apartment? But the more relevant idea is that it's a place for us, like it will be home, you won't constantly be reminded about how you don't belong there, it'll be the one place you do belong.

 

[Jamdoc]

There is a very strong scriptural basis to doubt that we will be emgaged in reproduction in the World to Come. The only groups I know of who teach this as a doctrine are those related to Mormonism, such as the LDS and the Communities of Christ. It seems unlikely given the answer our Lord provided to the Sadducees regarding the status of re-married people in the World to Come in Mark 12:18-27 and the equivalent pericopes in Matthew and Luke.

Since we will neither be married nor given in marriage in the World to Come, reproduction therein could only occur as fornication, which is unimaginable. And since we will be like the angels, according to Christ our True God, and the angels do not reproduce, that is further evidence that the World to Come does not include reproduction.

Isaiah 65:23 says the seed of the blessed of the Lord will be having offspring on the New Earth.
I do not know how it will work without marriage.
It could be that just like dietary laws pass away with the cross, certain sexual exclusivity laws pass away (perhaps those laws had a purpose on Earth they no longer have a purpose on the New Earth as on this Earth that exclusivity is to paint a picture of Christ and the Church).
Or as Jesus talked about raising children for Abraham from the rocks.. maybe it's asexual.

But God created what He wanted in Eden, and it didn't involve Eunuchs.

 

[The Liturgist]

says the seed of the blessed of the Lord will be having offspring on the New Earth.

It does not literally say that, and insofar as there are alternate interpretations as to the prophecy which do not contradict the teaching of our Lord regarding the Eschaton, there is no reason to even consider such a carnal interpretation.

But God created what He wanted in Eden, and it didn't involve Eunuchs.

I suspect comparing glorification to a quasi-angelic state to castration would be gravely offensive to all traditional Christians.

I shall of course solicit the opinions of some of my highly theologically learned friends such as @MarkRohfrietsch @Ain't Zwinglian @prodromos @FenderTL5 @dzheremi and @chevyontheriver to make sure I am not in left field on this point from the perspective of mainstream traditional Christianity as interpreted by Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics and traditional liturgical Protestants, but I don’t think I am.

 

[Jamdoc]

It does not literally say that, and insofar as there are alternate interpretations as to the prophecy which do not contradict the teaching of our Lord regarding the Eschaton, there is no reason to even consider such a carnal interpretation.

now I normally use the KJV, but "bring forth" is kind of hard to know what the verse is talking about. But here's the ESV

They shall not labor in vain or bear children for calamity, for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the LORD, and their descendants with them.

They are the offspring of the blessed of the LORD, which I think we'd both agree the "Blessed of the LORD" is Jesus? Unbelieving "survivors of the 7 year tribulation" are not going to be considered the offspring of Jesus.
"and their descendants with them"
Those offspring of the Blessed of the LORD will have descendents. IE, children will be born, no longer subject to the curse placed on this Earth, or the curse placed on Eve. This verse is a reversal of the curse on Eve, and makes virtually no sense in a world where children aren't born at all.

I suspect comparing glorification to a quasi-angelic state to castration would be gravely offensive to all traditional Christians.

I shall of course solicit the opinions of some of my highly theologically learned friends such as @MarkRohfrietsch @Ain't Zwinglian @prodromos @FenderTL5 @dzheremi and @chevyontheriver to make sure I am not in left field on this point from the perspective of mainstream traditional Christianity as interpreted by Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics and traditional liturgical Protestants, but I don’t think I am.

If God had wanted us to be angels
we'd be angels.
He wouldn't have created man.
But He created man.
He created man body first, and THEN Adam became a living soul.
Jesus became incarnate.
Jesus resurrected incarnate, the resurrected Jesus Christ is flesh.

There is an element of carnality that is part of our future

and frankly, desiring to be like an angel, rather than the image of God, seems like an affront to God. A far worse offense than offending traditional Christians.

Hebrews 1

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

we are to conform to the image of Christ, a greater image than any angel, not angels.

We will judge angels.