"God doesn't owe you anything" is a destructive doctrine.

[Gregory Thompson]

It's a turn of phrase, "God doesn't owe you anything" is really the pastor saying he won't do anything for you. It has nothing to do with God.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Well 1 set of sinners does experience joy and another set of sinners is tortured.... it's just not in the way that he meant it that is being in the presence of God is joy to some and torture for others.
those tortured are removed from God's presence, that is a foundational part of the torture itself. To be removed from the source of all that is good, all that is love all that is life.

There is no location apart from God's Presence

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

When I say that God did not create evil in the sense of sin, and that it is not a creature, I am not saying it is uncreated but uncreatable

So you discount God creating the power of evil?

Didn't God create all things visible and invisible including all powers?

Habakkuk 2:9

Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!

The knowledge of evil was in the Garden, from the beginning of mankind. Whether realized or not it was there along with temptation and lusts, in the Garden

God sets all of these things before us all. Choosing any of them doesn't eliminate the facts of the others

Deuteronomy 30:15

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

That’s Universalism which is to be rejected. I had not realized we were in Controversial Christian Theology.

Every Christian believes in the universal condemnation of the devil and his messengers, forever. So let's not get too liberal with the terms here

Is this true?

2 Cor. 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You presumably know what traditional Christianity teaches - that the devil fell, due to his pride, along with the other evil angels, and the remaining good angels, having chosen to go with God, will not change their opinion.

If you don’t know what traditional Christianity teaches, I would suggest you read St. John of Damascus as a means of providing you a high level overview, and also read On the Incarnation and the Life of Anthony by St. Athanasius the Great.

Oh, yeah, before I forget, there is a common fallacy about previously Holy Satan, having been a "good angel" gone bad.

And try as I might I've never found a single scripture stating that Satan was ever Holy

 

[David Lamb]

Oh, yeah, before I forget, there is a common fallacy about previously Holy Satan, having been a "good angel" gone bad.

And try as I might I've never found a single scripture stating that Satan was ever Holy

Jesus said that He had seen Satan fall from heaven:

“And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” (Lu 10:18 NKJV)

Also, Revelation talks of the dragon no longer having a place in heaven, and the context indicates that the dragon is Satan:

“7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.” (Re 12:7-8 NKJV)

To have a place in heaven to start with, he would have needed to be holy.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Jesus said that He had seen Satan fall from heaven:

“And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” (Lu 10:18 NKJV)

Also, Revelation talks of the dragon no longer having a place in heaven, and the context indicates that the dragon is Satan:

“7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.” (Re 12:7-8 NKJV)

To have a place in heaven to start with, he would have needed to be holy.

The observation is a simple one: Nowhere in scripture is Satan stated to be Holy, location notwithstanding i.e. heaven.

I don't consider heaven as some planet in outerspace, fwiw, that has a geographic location

Technically speaking Satan is and remains right now, in the Presence of God because there is no place where God is not

And even at the grand finale, there will be torment in the presence of God, Rev. 14:10-11, so notions that no sinner i.e. the devil can be in the Presence of God is just a common fallacy. Everything that is is in God's Presence

 

[David Lamb]

The observation is a simple one: Nowhere in scripture is Satan stated to be Holy, location notwithstanding i.e. heaven.

I don't consider heaven as some planet in outerspace, fwiw, that has a geographic location

Technically speaking Satan is and remains right now, in the Presence of God because there is no place where God is not

And even at the grand finale, there will be torment in the presence of God, Rev. 14:10-11, so notions that no sinner i.e. the devil can be in the Presence of God is just a common fallacy. Everything that is is in God's Presence

I agree that heaven isn't some planet in outer space. We are told that things that cause evil are not permitted in heaven:

“But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.” (Re 21:27 NKJV)

Does Satan defile, cause an abomination or a lie? Yes.

The fact that Revelation 14:10-11 says that the devil is tormented in the presence of God certainly does not mean that the torment takes place in heaven.

 

[Jamdoc]

There is no location apart from God's Presence

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

While God is omnipresent, it's not the same as being in His direct presence the way that believers will be on the New Earth, and there is this as well

2 Thessalonians 1:9

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

 

[lanceleo]

The fact that Revelation 14:10-11 says that the devil is tormented in the presence of God certainly does not mean that the torment takes place in heaven.

Can you explain the presence of God if it does not mean in the physical sense? I agree with you but I want to hear your explanation.

 

[Jamdoc]

Jesus said that He had seen Satan fall from heaven:

“And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” (Lu 10:18 NKJV)

Also, Revelation talks of the dragon no longer having a place in heaven, and the context indicates that the dragon is Satan:

“7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.” (Re 12:7-8 NKJV)

To have a place in heaven to start with, he would have needed to be holy.

Not only that but Satan actually holds an official job in heaven, he is the accuser. That's what Revelation 12 calls him, and what his role in Job 1 and 2 is when he comes before the throne of God, he accuses Job. Right now in something of a Heavenly court, Satan accuses us before God the Father, the prosecutor, and Jesus advocates for us, He is our defense.

Romans 8

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

as I believe Revelation 12's war is yet future because it only gives a short time after that permanent casting out, we're currently being accused, but our Advocate is so much greater than our Accuser.

What I interpret Jesus to be referring to in Luke 10:18 is not what currently happened at that time but Jesus knowing the future, and that the spread of the Gospel was going to cause the fall of Satan. Not that it was a reference to a past or present event.

But I know some people see it as a past event and therefore think all angels that could fall did.
I'm of the mind that that war will take place in the future and angels have the capacity to sin and fall, also Paul says we will judge them.

Michael is the only one we can say for 100% certainty by name know never sins. 2/3 don't, we don't know which by name though. We can say Gabriel most likely doesn't, but it's not 100% in scripture.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

While God is omnipresent, it's not the same as being in His direct presence

Anytime we start slicing God to pieces there's probably theological issues don't you think?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

enter it

I'll ask the Bill Clinton question

What is "it?"

I'd also suggest being tormented in the presence of "the Lamb," Mr Lamb, probably doesn't get much closer to heaven

 

[Jamdoc]

Anytime we start slicing God to pieces there's probably theological issues don't you think?

When the bible presents things like 2 Thessalonians 1:9 and Revelation 14:10, we have to recognize that these passage seem to contradict each other but are both true somehow.

Just as Matthew 22:30 seems to contradict Isaiah 65:23, but they don't, both are somehow true.

So by 2 Thessalonians 1:9 there's a way to be away from the presence of an Omnipresent being, but also in the presence. Like they're there, but it's not in the same way that they'll be present for us.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

When the bible presents things like 2 Thessalonians 1:9 and Revelation 14:10, we have to recognize that these passage seem to contradict each other but are both true somehow.

Just as Matthew 22:30 seems to contradict Isaiah 65:23, but they don't, both are somehow true.

So by 2 Thessalonians 1:9 there's a way to be away from the presence of an Omnipresent being, but also in the presence. Like they're there, but it's not in the same way that they'll be present for us.

You seem to be inserting what isn't there in 2 Thess 1:9

Being punished from the presence of the Lord doesn't equate to being banished from His Presence as in way out there somewhere else.

It means punished from His Presence i.e. in the vicinity of, same as Rev. 14:10

 

[Jamdoc]

You seem to be inserting what isn't there in 2 Thess 1:9

Being punished from the presence of the Lord doesn't equate to being banished from His Presence as in way out there somewhere else.

It means punished from His Presence i.e. in the vicinity of, same as Rev. 14:10

depends on translation

2 Thessalonians 1:9
ESV "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,"
NIV "They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"
NASB "These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"

Sometimes if language is confusing or ambiguous in 1 translation it can be useful to use multiples and see what they all agree on. That's not to say you should cherrypick one version the way some people do for 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and claim it's a rapture passage when the Geneva bible translates Apostasia as "departyng" while every other English translation translates it as "falling away" "rebellion" "revolt" "apostasy"

In this case KJV's use of "destruction from the presence of the Lord" should be understood as "away from" not that the presence of the Lord is the cause of that destruction.
because that's how all the other translations treat it.

 

[The Liturgist]

So you discount God creating the power of evil?

Didn't God create all things visible and invisible including all powers?

Once again, I see you trying to put words in my mouth, which I specifically asked you not to do.

However, your post raises some issues that should be replied to, but before I take the time to summarize the pre-existing doctrines agreed upon by traditional Christians in response to your position, I feel obliged to check that, to ensure we have a common reference, that you agree with the Nicene Creed.

 

[The Liturgist]

And try as I might I've never found a single scripture stating that Satan was ever Holy

There are scriptures which indicate that the devil rebelled and fell from grace. And additionally all angels are created holy by their definition, since they are intelligent beings set aside for the service of God (something is made holy when it is set aside for divine service).

 

[The Liturgist]

The fact that Revelation 14:10-11 says that the devil is tormented in the presence of God certainly does not mean that the torment takes place in heaven.

It also does not mean - and I want to be clear on this point, I am not a universalist, but rather, I should say, it does not mean that God is neccessarily the agent by which the devil is tormented. To explain on this point: In the case of the laity St. John Chrysostom, the great fourth century homilest, whose preaching skills remain unsurpassed (neither Spurgeon nor Graham has even approached the homiletical heights attained by the Golden-Mouthed Patriarch of Constantinople, who we Orthodox venerate as one of the Three Holy Hierarchs, together with St. Basil the Great and his best friend St. Gregory the Theologian, who was also Patriarch of Constantinople, albeit briefly), pointed out that the worst possible torment would be missing out on the joys of paradise. Since the devil does not actually reign over Hell like a Pagan god of the underworld such as Pluto or Seteh or Anubis or Shiva, but rather is constrained to do only what God permits, as we see in Job, we can also discount the possibility of the devil being the sort of machismo rebel depicted by Milton in Paradise Lost, which has always struck me as a particularly ludicrous work, and an offensive one at that, much more so than Dante (which I still object to, as an Orthodox Christian, for perpetuating false ideas about eschatology).

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

depends on translation
In this case KJV's use of "destruction from the presence of the Lord" should be understood as "away from" not that the presence of the Lord is the cause of that destruction.

As stated prior I don't think there is such a place as away from the Lord

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Once again, I see you trying to put words in my mouth, which I specifically asked you not to do.

Asking questions isn't putting words in anyone's mouth

However, your post raises some issues that should be replied to, but before I take the time to summarize the pre-existing doctrines agreed upon by traditional Christians in response to your position, I feel obliged to check that, to ensure we have a common reference, that you agree with the Nicene Creed.

I'm good with the Nicene Creed. I do ask clarification questions, and yes, some are difficult. Not meant to be a threat