"God doesn't owe you anything" is a destructive doctrine.

[Jamdoc]

The ascended Christ saved Paul to be the apostle of the gentiles (Romans 11:13), and he said clearly in Romans 9:4

Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

So I strongly suggest you read Romans to Philemon to understand what promises God actually gave you, a gentile in the Body of Christ.

Don't steal Israel's promises in scripture and claim them for yourself.

Nah, I don't accept people who teach against the whole counsel of God and instead cherrypick Paul and dismiss the rest of scripture as not being for them.

 

[Guojing]

Nah, I don't accept people who teach against the whole counsel of God and instead cherrypick Paul and dismiss the rest of scripture as not being for them.

You mean you don't take literally what Paul is saying in Romans 9:4?

We are still focusing on the promises of God in scripture correct?

 

[Jamdoc]

You mean you don't take literally what Paul is saying in Romans 9:4?

We are still focusing on the promises of God in scripture correct?

Romans 11 shows a unified destiny and people of God, all one olive tree, in which we've been grafted in, and Israel that was broken off will be grafted back in, same tree.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

one awkwardly worded verse

Uh, and that other entity class under duress referenced by many scriptures in that segment as previously noted

A lot of newbies are not even aware that millennialism is a big theology category up there even moreso than the typical pre-mid-post rapture debates, and potentially in some forms of analysis, a somewhat separate matter from other segments of possible end time scenarios. They are classed as pre and post millenialism and amillenialism. Even the pre-mid-post rapture theories have their various theories on millennialism

I'd suggest you are in the no millenialism category and may not realize it

Millenialism is some times broken down as the time pre the final destruction of Satan, but Satan's role vastly diminished and Christ's reign on earth. Then there is the post Satan destruction permanent reign

But it's complex subject matter. It's worth doing some reading from positions you may not be familiar with that address the various scriptural particulars in more detail

 

[Jamdoc]

Uh, and that other entity class under duress referenced by many scriptures in that segment as previously noted

That was before the context of God talking about the New Earth.
It's about a different subject. It's verse 17 and beyond that God is specifically talking about the New Earth He will create.

A lot of newbies are not even aware that millennialism is a big theology category up there even moreso than the typical pre-mid-post rapture debates, and potentially in some forms of analysis, a somewhat separate matter from other segments of possible end time scenarios. They are classed as pre and post millenialism and amillenialism. Even the pre-mid-post rapture theories have their various theories on millennialism

I'd suggest you are in the no millenialism category and may not realize it

Millenialism is some times broken down as the time pre the final destruction of Satan, but Satan's role vastly diminished and Christ's reign on earth. Then there is the post Satan destruction permanent reign

But it's complex subject matter. It's worth doing some reading from positions you may not be familiar with that address the various scriptural particulars in more detail

I'm well aware of the millennium and there are references to it in old testament scripture (most notably, every time "the day of the lord" is mentioned, That's also a reference to the millennium, a day with the Lord is like 1000 years etc.
But Isaiah 65 is not one of those references, because God is talking about New Heavens and New Earth.

previous places in Isaiah like Isaiah 2, talk about the Millennial Kingdom, where they're repurposing weapons into farming implements (in contrast the New Earth will have never had weapons)
Isaiah 65 however is the first mention of there being an entirely New Earth.

What is happening is that people see that 1 verse that mentions death, and then instead of God says He's talking about the New Earth, and going with what God says, they logic and reason their way through and insert the Millennial Kingdom in place of New Earth.
But that's not what God says.

 

[Guojing]

Romans 11 shows a unified destiny and people of God, all one olive tree, in which we've been grafted in, and Israel that was broken off will be grafted back in, same tree.

I see, so you believe we are also Israel and Israelites, at least in the spiritual sense?

 

[Jamdoc]

I see, so you believe we are also Israel and Israelites, at least in the spiritual sense?

Yes and no.
there's the natural branches, and the wild branches grafted in, we're not exactly the same, we don't replace Israel, we are however, grafted in as coheirs. There's a plan to graft the natural branches that were broken off back in.

I don't adhere to Dispensationalism nor Replacement Theology. In Revelation 7 there are 2 separate groups so it's not the same.. there's a distinction between the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel, and the great multitude that could not be counted of every tribe, tongue and nation.
I see fitting that there's a distinction, but that they are equal. They both have a destiny as God's people.

 

[Guojing]

Yes and no.
there's the natural branches, and the wild branches grafted in, we're not exactly the same, we don't replace Israel, we are however, grafted in as coheirs. There's a plan to graft the natural branches that were broken off back in.

No wonder you want to believe those blessings that God promised Israel, you can also claim them since you are a co-heir.

Alright then, thanks for clarifying.

 

[Guojing]

Yes and no.
there's the natural branches, and the wild branches grafted in, we're not exactly the same, we don't replace Israel, we are however, grafted in as coheirs. There's a plan to graft the natural branches that were broken off back in.

By the way, if you read the KJV of that particular verse carefully

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

So we are not grafted into Israel, we are grafted in among Israel.

And with Israel, we now connected to God thru Christ.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

That was before the context of God talking about the New Earth.
It's about a different subject. It's verse 17 and beyond that God is specifically talking about the New Earth He will create.

I've already cited that Paul said "behold" all things are new for the new creature. You see creation of a new heaven and earth as a strictly material creation and that isn't the case. The "new creature" is made, sight unseen. We know that the "Kingdom of God" is within us. There are many things in creation that transpire beyond the surface views of strict materialism and empirical material facts. There are invisible forces and invisible agencies.

Millennialism is a thing in Christianity. Obviously you have no accounting for the subject matter.

Personally I don't have an opinion other than I believe at the end of this wicked age, the tables are turned on the devil and his messengers, and these bad actors are placed firmly beneath us all. And I might even consider this action by God in Christ the beginning of a real millennium, which has not yet happened. Seeing our issues, our problems are with them are actually the first step in that direction and that is definitely upon us and should be upon us all.

Getting closer though as we speak

You and I bear our own enemy in the flesh called the tempter. In Isaiah 65 we can see that these characters are taking a back seat and God will be openly against them, even as God is against them now.

And "they" will be ruled with the infamous ROD of IRON

 

[Jamdoc]

I've already cited that Paul said "behold" all things are new for the new creature. You see creation of a new heaven and earth as a strictly material creation and that isn't the case. The "new creature" is made, sight unseen. We know that the "Kingdom of God" is within us. There are many things in creation that transpire beyond the surface views of strict materialism and empirical material facts. There are invisible forces and invisible agencies.

Millennialism is a thing in Christianity. Obviously you have no accounting for the subject matter.

Personally I don't have an opinion other than I believe at the end of this wicked age, the tables are turned on the devil and his messengers, and these bad actors are placed firmly beneath us all. And I might even consider this action by God in Christ the beginning of a real millennium, which has not yet happened. Seeing our issues, our problems are with them are actually the first step in that direction and that is definitely upon us and should be upon us all.

Getting closer though as we speak

You and I bear our own enemy in the flesh called the tempter. In Isaiah 65 we can see that these characters are taking a back seat and God will be openly against them, even as God is against them now.

And "they" will be ruled with the infamous ROD of IRON

as I said I'm well aware of the Millennium.
and Isaiah 65 is not about it.
Isaiah 65 is about the New Earth.
it has Earthly scenes and Earthly Activities
and God is dwelling among His people in Jerusalem.
kinda like Revelation 21, where it's proclaimed the Tabernacle of God is among men.

In the Millennium, there's still a separation between Heaven, and Earth
in the New Earth, God dwells on Earth, Heaven comes down to Earth, Heaven and Earth are then the same thing.
and while yes there are spiritual realities about it, it's a real, tangible, material place.
People build houses and plant fields and eat food
it's not a 24/7 singalong around the throne in our eternity it's Earth perfected and how God had always intended it to be, with His imagebearers having dominion on it ruling alongside Jesus.

 

[Clare73]

I've heard it so many times especially if I express dissatisfaction with someone else's idea of what heaven is like (in general the idea that what you do in heaven is endlessly praise God for "all the good things He did for you" on this cursed Earth and cursed body), I've believed it, I've even parroted it to other people and especially parroted it at myself.
What profit has it wrought? Nothing good. It has created self loathing, depression, and doubt in the goodness of God, created a version of God that just sits on His laurels and basks in worship and if you don't like it, you can go get tortured in hell.
The reality? God is better than that, and not just for some greatest expression of Stockholm syndrome in the universe scenario where He can torture you forever but doesn't and you're just thankful you're not being tortured, but rather because He has promised to provide, to compensate losses, to reward, and to establish a relationship far greater than a slave and his Master that the other doctrine builds up. A slave master doesn't owe the slave anything, doesn't compensate, etc. You're owned, you're property, and you work and just be thankful you don't get whipped.

But God has made promises, and therefore does owe you things.

God owes you things only because he chose to promise to you what he did not owe you.

God did not owe you to make that promise to owe you.

God doesn't owe his enemies anything (Ro 5:10).

 

[Jamdoc]

God owes you things only because he chose to promise to you what he did not owe you.

God did not owe you to make that promise to owe you.

God doesn't owe his enemies anything (Ro 5:10).

That's my point.
That it doesn't really have anything to do with me, but it has a lot to do with God's character, to make promises and fulfill them and not reneg on them.
Some people like those who believe in replacement theology (or Islam) believe that God renegged on His promises to Israel that because Israel violated their end of the bargain God decided not to honor His and they see that as okay.
and perhaps for a human it would be.
But not God.
Ezekiel 36 has God put Israel back in the land not because they're so great or deserve it, in fact they're blaspheming God's Holy name in every nation they were scattered to, but because God's own name and honor are on the promise He made. it's for His sake that He does these things.

So if God makes a promise, rather than "well it'd be okay if He changed His mind and did something else instead" I say God forbid! God made that promise and Him fulfilling it does not rely on us one bit. But is entirely God's own character that sees that promise delivered on.

God honoring promises He makes even if we mess it up, reflects God's goodness, rather than reflects our failures and painting God as someone scheming.
Because God knows we're going to fail.
Why make a promise with someone when you know they're going to fail, that's making a deal in bad faith.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

as I said I'm well aware of the Millennium.
and Isaiah 65 is not about it.
Isaiah 65 is about the New Earth.
it has Earthly scenes and Earthly Activities
and God is dwelling among His people in Jerusalem.
kinda like Revelation 21, where it's proclaimed the Tabernacle of God is among men.

In the Millennium, there's still a separation between Heaven, and Earth
in the New Earth, God dwells on Earth, Heaven comes down to Earth, Heaven and Earth are then the same thing.
and while yes there are spiritual realities about it, it's a real, tangible, material place.
People build houses and plant fields and eat food
it's not a 24/7 singalong around the throne in our eternity it's Earth perfected and how God had always intended it to be, with His imagebearers having dominion on it ruling alongside Jesus.

Yeah, except there will still be a priest class making offerings which kinda punches a hole in your theory

"And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies."

and the little ooopsie

Enemies in the new heaven and earth

 

[Clare73]

That's my point.
That it doesn't really have anything to do with me, but it has a lot to do with God's character, to make promises and fulfill them and not reneg on them.
Some people like those who believe in replacement theology

There is no replacement theology in the NT, there is only fulfillment theology.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yeah, except there will still be a priest class making offerings which kinda punches a hole in your theory

"And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies."

and the little ooopsie

Enemies in the new heaven and earth

there's no priests mentioned in Isaiah 65:17 and beyond when the New Earth is mentioned.

Verse 17 is where the subject changes to the New Earth.
the prior topic has been switched.

 

[Jamdoc]

There is no replacement theology in the NT, there is only fulfillment theology.

yes I'm not a replacement theologist.
but some are and claim the Church is the New Israel that God rescinded His covenants with Israel and gave them to the Church instead
they don't even blink at the idea of God reneging on promises.
Like they think God changed His mind that's okay

okay well then how does that pan out for God's promises to us? If God has a precedent of reneging on promises He made to others, what makes you think that God's promises to you will be kept? He can change His mind again afterall and just as I brought up earlier, be like Darth Vader "I am altering the deal, pray I do not alter it any further"

Why we can trust God is because He keeps His promises, to Israel, and to us. Several of God's promises are never given as conditional statements. Just things that God is going to do.

a god that changes his mind and baits and switches? You can't trust anything he would say.
Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever? You can trust Him.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

there's no priests mentioned in Isaiah 65:17 and beyond when the New Earth is mentioned.

Verse 17 is where the subject changes to the New Earth.
the prior topic has been switched.

Well sure it does. Turn the page to the next chapter and it's right there to see along with enemies of God that He is punishing, in the "new heaven and new earth" scenario

 

[Guojing]

yes I'm not a replacement theologist.
but some are and claim the Church is the New Israel that God rescinded His covenants with Israel and gave them to the Church instead
they don't even blink at the idea of God reneging on promises.
Like they think God changed His mind that's okay

okay well then how does that pan out for God's promises to us? If God has a precedent of reneging on promises He made to others, what makes you think that God's promises to you will be kept? He can change His mind again afterall and just as I brought up earlier, be like Darth Vader "I am altering the deal, pray I do not alter it any further"

Why we can trust God is because He keeps His promises, to Israel, and to us. Several of God's promises are never given as conditional statements. Just things that God is going to do.

a god that changes his mind and baits and switches? You can't trust anything he would say.
Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever? You can trust Him.

So hypothetically, when you die and go to heaven and Christ told you you were never part of Israel blessings and covenants, how do you think you would respond?

 

[Jamdoc]

Well sure it does. Turn the page to the next chapter and it's right there to see along with enemies of God that He is punishing, in the "new heaven and new earth" scenario

turn the page, first words: "Thus sayeth the LORD"
IE the prophet is starting a new topic.
Isaiah 65:1-7 addressing the sinfulness of Israel and God's judgement upon it.
Isaiah 65:8-10 God promising to not only not utterly destroy them despite their sinfulness, but bring forth a redeemer out of Jacob (Jesus) and offer peace and plenty to them
Isaiah 65:11-16 Israel rejects God's offer (rejects Christ and kills Him), God turns over to another people (the Gentiles), and chastises Israel (IE the last 1900 years or so)

Isaiah 65:17 is when God begins talking about the New Earth, Isaiah 65:25 is where He concludes

Isaiah 66:1, we go to a new topic, in particular God goes BACK to the sinfulness of Israel, decrying their sacrifices that He had no pleasure in, This is no longer a passage about the New Earth.