God doesn't need your help or your permission, He is God

[atpollard]

Part 1: God doesn’t need your help (to save you).​

John 11:38-44 CSB

38 Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 “Remove the stone,” Jesus said.

Martha, the dead man’s sister, told him, “Lord, there is already a stench because he has been dead four days.”

40 Jesus said to her, “Didn’t I tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God? ”

41 So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you heard me. 42 I know that you always hear me, but because of the crowd standing here I said this, so that they may believe you sent me.” 43 After he said this, he shouted with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out! ” 44 The dead man came out bound hand and foot with linen strips and with his face wrapped in a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unwrap him and let him go.”​

God required no help from Lazarus to raise Lazarus from the dead.

Ephesians 2:1-10 CSB

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins 2 in which you previously lived according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit now working in the disobedient. 3 We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love that he had for us, 5 made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace! 6 He also raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might display the immeasurable riches of his grace through his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift —  9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time for us to do.​

God requires no help from US to raise US from being spiritually dead.


Part 2: God doesn’t need your permission (to save you).

Romans 9:14-24 CSB

14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For he tells Moses, I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then, it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh, I raised you up for this reason so that I may display my power in you and that my name may be proclaimed in the whole earth. 18 So then, he has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? ” 20 But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this? ” 21 Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? 22 And what if God, wanting to display his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And what if he did this to make known the riches of his glory on objects of mercy that he prepared beforehand for glory —  24 on us, the ones he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?​

The Potter decides without needing to ask permission of the clay.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 CSB

4 The word of the LORD came to me:
5 I chose you before I formed you in the womb;
I set you apart before you were born.
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.​

John 15:16 CSB

16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he will give you.​

Old Testament or New Testament, God chose us not God asked our permission.

Acts 9:1-9 CSB

1 Now Saul was still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord. He went to the high priest 2 and requested letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any men or women who belonged to the Way, he might bring them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he traveled and was nearing Damascus, a light from heaven suddenly flashed around him. 4 Falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? ”

5 “Who are you, Lord? ” Saul said.

“I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “But get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the sound but seeing no one. 8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing. So they took him by the hand and led him into Damascus. 9 He was unable to see for three days and did not eat or drink.
​

God did not stop to ask for Saul’s permission.

 

[SkyWriting]

7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the sound but seeing no one. 8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing. So they took him by the hand and led him into Damascus. 9 He was unable to see for three days and did not eat or drink. God did not stop to ask for Saul’s permission.​

I propose that all churches blind people and lead them around for three days before they are baptized. Logical right? We should follow Jesus' lead.​

 

[atpollard]

I propose that all churches blind people and lead them around for three days before they are baptized. Logical right? We should follow Jesus' lead.​

No.
It shows a lack of understanding what the Church is and what it does.

God leads many people through “darkness” before he delivers them into the “light” … we are not God.

EDIT: Our’s is the ministry of Ananias.

 

[SkyWriting]

No.
It shows a lack of understanding what the Church is and what it does.

God leads many people through “darkness” before he delivers them into the “light” … we are not God.

EDIT: Our’s is the ministry of Ananias.

Yes, I lack understanding of so many things. So many people have explained this to me over the years. It is finally starting to sink in just how ignorant I am.

 

[Clare73]

I propose that all churches blind people and lead them around for three days before they are baptized. Logical right? We should follow Jesus' lead.​

Non-responsive to material presented.

Hope you don't consider yourself a teacher of the Scriptures?

 

[Aussie Pete]

Part 1: God doesn’t need your help (to save you).​

John 11:38-44 CSB

38 Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 “Remove the stone,” Jesus said.

Martha, the dead man’s sister, told him, “Lord, there is already a stench because he has been dead four days.”

40 Jesus said to her, “Didn’t I tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God? ”

41 So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you heard me. 42 I know that you always hear me, but because of the crowd standing here I said this, so that they may believe you sent me.” 43 After he said this, he shouted with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out! ” 44 The dead man came out bound hand and foot with linen strips and with his face wrapped in a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unwrap him and let him go.”​

God required no help from Lazarus to raise Lazarus from the dead.

Ephesians 2:1-10 CSB

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins 2 in which you previously lived according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit now working in the disobedient. 3 We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love that he had for us, 5 made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace! 6 He also raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might display the immeasurable riches of his grace through his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift —  9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time for us to do.​

God requires no help from US to raise US from being spiritually dead.


Part 2: God doesn’t need your permission (to save you).

Romans 9:14-24 CSB

14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For he tells Moses, I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then, it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh, I raised you up for this reason so that I may display my power in you and that my name may be proclaimed in the whole earth. 18 So then, he has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? ” 20 But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this? ” 21 Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? 22 And what if God, wanting to display his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And what if he did this to make known the riches of his glory on objects of mercy that he prepared beforehand for glory —  24 on us, the ones he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?​

The Potter decides without needing to ask permission of the clay.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 CSB

4 The word of the LORD came to me:
5 I chose you before I formed you in the womb;
I set you apart before you were born.
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.​

John 15:16 CSB

16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he will give you.​

Old Testament or New Testament, God chose us not God asked our permission.

Acts 9:1-9 CSB

1 Now Saul was still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord. He went to the high priest 2 and requested letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any men or women who belonged to the Way, he might bring them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he traveled and was nearing Damascus, a light from heaven suddenly flashed around him. 4 Falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? ”

5 “Who are you, Lord? ” Saul said.

“I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “But get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the sound but seeing no one. 8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing. So they took him by the hand and led him into Damascus. 9 He was unable to see for three days and did not eat or drink.
​

God did not stop to ask for Saul’s permission.

God requires our cooperation. "Go" is the one of the last things that the risen Jesus said to His disciples.
Romans 10:
14How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

Christians need to be very careful with Calvinism. It can lead to a fatalistic and introverted church that sits around waiting for God to do something. God is waiting for us to do what Lord Jesus told us to do.

 

[fhansen]

Part 1: God doesn’t need your help (to save you).​

John 11:38-44 CSB

38 Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 “Remove the stone,” Jesus said.

Martha, the dead man’s sister, told him, “Lord, there is already a stench because he has been dead four days.”

40 Jesus said to her, “Didn’t I tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God? ”

41 So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you heard me. 42 I know that you always hear me, but because of the crowd standing here I said this, so that they may believe you sent me.” 43 After he said this, he shouted with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out! ” 44 The dead man came out bound hand and foot with linen strips and with his face wrapped in a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unwrap him and let him go.”​

God required no help from Lazarus to raise Lazarus from the dead.

Ephesians 2:1-10 CSB

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins 2 in which you previously lived according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit now working in the disobedient. 3 We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love that he had for us, 5 made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace! 6 He also raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might display the immeasurable riches of his grace through his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift —  9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time for us to do.​

God requires no help from US to raise US from being spiritually dead.


Part 2: God doesn’t need your permission (to save you).

Romans 9:14-24 CSB

14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For he tells Moses, I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then, it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh, I raised you up for this reason so that I may display my power in you and that my name may be proclaimed in the whole earth. 18 So then, he has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? ” 20 But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this? ” 21 Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? 22 And what if God, wanting to display his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And what if he did this to make known the riches of his glory on objects of mercy that he prepared beforehand for glory —  24 on us, the ones he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?​

The Potter decides without needing to ask permission of the clay.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 CSB

4 The word of the LORD came to me:
5 I chose you before I formed you in the womb;
I set you apart before you were born.
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.​

John 15:16 CSB

16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he will give you.​

Old Testament or New Testament, God chose us not God asked our permission.

Acts 9:1-9 CSB

1 Now Saul was still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord. He went to the high priest 2 and requested letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any men or women who belonged to the Way, he might bring them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he traveled and was nearing Damascus, a light from heaven suddenly flashed around him. 4 Falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? ”

5 “Who are you, Lord? ” Saul said.

“I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “But get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the sound but seeing no one. 8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing. So they took him by the hand and led him into Damascus. 9 He was unable to see for three days and did not eat or drink.
​

God did not stop to ask for Saul’s permission.

God doesn't need us for anything. And yet He loves us and absolutely covets our participation in His work, beginning with our acceptance of the gift of faith, for our own highest good. Otherwise none would perish-and He probably would've just put everyone in heaven to begin with and avoided this oft-times ugly, sinful world.

 

[atpollard]

Yes, I lack understanding of so many things. So many people have explained this to me over the years. It is finally starting to sink in just how ignorant I am.

I admire sarcasm.
Well played.

 

[SkyWriting]

I admire sarcasm.
Well played.

When I see people getting angry with others opinions it just ticks me off.

 

[atpollard]

God requires our cooperation. "Go" is the one of the last things that the risen Jesus said to His disciples.

How confident are you that statement was spoken to “unsaved disciples” as part of God's plan to save them?

MY CLAIM was …

God doesn’t need your help (to save you).

 

[atpollard]

When I see people getting angry with others opinions it just ticks me off.

Selectively … it would seem.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Part 1: God doesn’t need your help (to save you).​

John 11:38-44 CSB

38 Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 “Remove the stone,” Jesus said.

Martha, the dead man’s sister, told him, “Lord, there is already a stench because he has been dead four days.”

40 Jesus said to her, “Didn’t I tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God? ”

41 So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you heard me. 42 I know that you always hear me, but because of the crowd standing here I said this, so that they may believe you sent me.” 43 After he said this, he shouted with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out! ” 44 The dead man came out bound hand and foot with linen strips and with his face wrapped in a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unwrap him and let him go.”​

God required no help from Lazarus to raise Lazarus from the dead.

Ephesians 2:1-10 CSB

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins 2 in which you previously lived according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit now working in the disobedient. 3 We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love that he had for us, 5 made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace! 6 He also raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might display the immeasurable riches of his grace through his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift —  9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time for us to do.​

God requires no help from US to raise US from being spiritually dead.


Part 2: God doesn’t need your permission (to save you).

Romans 9:14-24 CSB

14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For he tells Moses, I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then, it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh, I raised you up for this reason so that I may display my power in you and that my name may be proclaimed in the whole earth. 18 So then, he has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? ” 20 But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this? ” 21 Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? 22 And what if God, wanting to display his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And what if he did this to make known the riches of his glory on objects of mercy that he prepared beforehand for glory —  24 on us, the ones he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?​

The Potter decides without needing to ask permission of the clay.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 CSB

4 The word of the LORD came to me:
5 I chose you before I formed you in the womb;
I set you apart before you were born.
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.​

John 15:16 CSB

16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he will give you.​

Old Testament or New Testament, God chose us not God asked our permission.

Acts 9:1-9 CSB

1 Now Saul was still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord. He went to the high priest 2 and requested letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any men or women who belonged to the Way, he might bring them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he traveled and was nearing Damascus, a light from heaven suddenly flashed around him. 4 Falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? ”

5 “Who are you, Lord? ” Saul said.

“I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “But get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the sound but seeing no one. 8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing. So they took him by the hand and led him into Damascus. 9 He was unable to see for three days and did not eat or drink.
​

God did not stop to ask for Saul’s permission.

He may not need our help but He does need our love and that is from us.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

 

[Irkle Berserkle]

God didn't "need" to create at all, but He chose to do so. God didn't "need" humans to spread the Gospel, but this is how He chose to spread it. God has chosen to do His work through and in cooperation with humans. I've never heard anyone suggest this was a matter of "need" on God's part. The point of the OP is lost on me - unless, as someone else suggested, it's the perspective of hyper-Calvinism.

 

[jamiec]

Part 1: God doesn’t need your help (to save you).​

John 11:38-44 CSB

38 Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 “Remove the stone,” Jesus said.

Martha, the dead man’s sister, told him, “Lord, there is already a stench because he has been dead four days.”

40 Jesus said to her, “Didn’t I tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God? ”

41 So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you heard me. 42 I know that you always hear me, but because of the crowd standing here I said this, so that they may believe you sent me.” 43 After he said this, he shouted with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out! ” 44 The dead man came out bound hand and foot with linen strips and with his face wrapped in a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unwrap him and let him go.”​

God required no help from Lazarus to raise Lazarus from the dead.

Ephesians 2:1-10 CSB

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins 2 in which you previously lived according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit now working in the disobedient. 3 We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love that he had for us, 5 made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace! 6 He also raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might display the immeasurable riches of his grace through his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift —  9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time for us to do.​

God requires no help from US to raise US from being spiritually dead.


Part 2: God doesn’t need your permission (to save you).

Romans 9:14-24 CSB

14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For he tells Moses, I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then, it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh, I raised you up for this reason so that I may display my power in you and that my name may be proclaimed in the whole earth. 18 So then, he has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? ” 20 But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this? ” 21 Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? 22 And what if God, wanting to display his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And what if he did this to make known the riches of his glory on objects of mercy that he prepared beforehand for glory —  24 on us, the ones he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?​

The Potter decides without needing to ask permission of the clay.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 CSB

4 The word of the LORD came to me:
5 I chose you before I formed you in the womb;
I set you apart before you were born.
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.​

John 15:16 CSB

16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he will give you.​

Old Testament or New Testament, God chose us not God asked our permission.

Acts 9:1-9 CSB

1 Now Saul was still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord. He went to the high priest 2 and requested letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any men or women who belonged to the Way, he might bring them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he traveled and was nearing Damascus, a light from heaven suddenly flashed around him. 4 Falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? ”

5 “Who are you, Lord? ” Saul said.

“I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “But get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the sound but seeing no one. 8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing. So they took him by the hand and led him into Damascus. 9 He was unable to see for three days and did not eat or drink.
​

God did not stop to ask for Saul’s permission.

However, none of that rules out the need for some sort or degree of human co-operation with God, within & following the initial Divine act of justification. And such co-operation with God, by the justified, requires a genuine, real & efficacious measure of human freedom. If we entirely lack moral & spiritual freedom, it is pointless & foolish to expect people to repent. People without moral freedom are incapable of choosing good rather than evil, so it would be gross tyranny of God to find fault with them for failing to do what they wholly unable to do. For God to blame the unrepentant for not responding to a grace of repentance that He did not grant them, & for not exercising a moral freedom that they lacked, would be evil, not righteous. If God is not Righteous, He is not God, but a worthless idol, a "thing of naught".

 

[renniks]

God doesn't need anything. But he created us anyway. God doesn't choose to save us without our cooperation. And the OP is a good example of cherry picking passages without overall context.

I suspect that the real goal here is to push limited atonement, which creates a version of God that looks nothing like Jesus IMO.

 

[atpollard]

The point of the OP is lost on me - unless, as someone else suggested, it's the perspective of hyper-Calvinism.

The point is “Monergism”, not Hyper-Calvinism.

 

[atpollard]

However, none of that rules out the need for some sort or degree of human co-operation with God, within & following the initial Divine act of justification.

I agree. Human cooperation following God’s justification is called “sanctification” … as in: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time for us to do.” [Ephesians 2:10 CSB] which follows after the God-centric “For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift -- not from works, so that no one can boast.” [Ephesians 2:8-9 CSB]

 

[atpollard]

God doesn't choose to save us without our cooperation. And the OP is a good example of cherry picking passages without overall context.

I welcome enlightenment from a correct exegesis of the verses presented using more of their context than I presented, as well as theological correction using other verses in context. I want to understand the truth of scripture and look forward to seeing what you present.

I suspect that the real goal here is to push limited atonement

The “real goal” here was simply to support the monergistic statement presented in the TITLE using scripture from “Jesus” and “Paul” in response to a challenge that I should do so.

Nothing more and nothing less.
I have done as requested.

 

[renniks]

I welcome enlightenment from a correct exegesis of the verses presented using more of their context than I presented, as well as theological correction using other verses in context. I want to understand the truth of scripture and look forward to seeing what you present.


The “real goal” here was simply to support the monergistic statement presented in the TITLE using scripture from “Jesus” and “Paul” in response to a challenge that I should do so.

Nothing more and nothing less.
I have done as requested.

In short, physical death and spiritual death are two very different concepts. I always find using the lazerus passage to support limited atonement to be a strange twisting of scripture.
Those dead to sin, (the saved) can still sin. So why would I think those dead in sin cannot respond to God?
And why do you cut off the beginning and end of Romans 9? Perhaps because they provide clues to the overall context, which is not individual salvation?
Then you have people chosen for certain jobs, not irresistibly, mind you, as some kind of proof that God chooses individual people for salvation? Does not compute.
God blinded Paul. He didn't force him to convert, however.
So I'm not sure what that is supposed to tell us.

 

[Christian7777777]

I admire sarcasm.
Well played.

That gives you both away as needing Gods help, and how the preaching of sharing these words with you is helping you ( or not)


Ephesians 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.