God doesn't like me

[Exist]

So, here's the deal. If I lived my life as I wanted, I couldn't get into heaven. Even if I want to live morally, and do so. Because even then, my life isn't good enough.

So answer, why isn't it good enough? Why are his standards so high for -his creation- that absolutely nobody passes?

Which makes me think of another question.

If nobody is righteous, no not one, then what happened with the Jews before Christianity? If they couldn't make it into heaven with those rules (apparently nobody can, that's why Jesus is "so important"), then did they all go to hell, even though they were doing what God told them to?

And if they went to heaven, they why is Jesus neccesary?

Hah, which brings up yet another.

Some Christians say that those people in tribles in the jungles or men that live on mountains etc get judged on what they know, and how they live their life (which is a misinterpretation of the text)....then why bring in all this extra crap that I, and Atheist, cannot make myself believe? Why not just have the whole world know nothing, and (guess what) judge them on how they act? (that's kinda how we do it, judge people for what they do, and not who they know, and it's kinda working for us)

And if you don't believe that (that people who've never heard of Jesus can get into heaven), then don't say anything about it. To me, those people are completely innocent, and there's nothing you can say to make me think your god is moral for giving them eternal punishment....just for being in the wrong place, wrong time.

 

[Rafael]

If you want to reject God then that is your perogative, but accusing Him of evil is just an excuse. He showed His love for mankind and sends no one to hell unjustly.
Going by hearsay is the easy and lazy way, but if life is worth anything at all, it is worth doing personal study and a little effort.
I didn't want to hear anything about God for the first 27 years of my life, and I went on whatever anybody said that suited what I wanted to hear, so I've been there and done that. However, a person comes to find out just how short and important life is as they grow older and realize that we are responsible for our actions - each and everything we do or say. We can be a blessing or a curse to this world by our own actions.
Love is an action and not just a feeling or lip service. I came to find that out, and I also found that I was lied to most of my life and accepted every lie because it was the easiest way or the broad road.
Make no mistake, God will never do injustice at the judgment. All those who have accepted Him and love Him in truth without show or pretence, have already been judged at the cross where Jesus paid the price and was judged in their place for the sinful nature of death all men have inherited. Through Jesus, all men have the opportunity to have eternal life, and the only commandments God gives us is to love in truth - To love Him with all our hearts, minds, and strength, and to love our neighbors as much as we do ourselves. Mankind does not follow this simple command to love or there would be no person starving to death or going naked in the world. No one would be without shelter or visitation and relief when sick. Instead of the love we give ourselves by clothing our bodies and feeding ourselves, as a race of beings, we neglect our duty to love each other and instead exploit and kill out of greed and materialism. Does the blood go on God's head for having created us and then letting us go our own way? No! The blood is on our own hands, when we turn blind eyes to the plight of the poor in this world or in our home towns.
Evil is real, and it causes death. God gave us a choice as a race and then bought us back from death with His own life, leaving us only the choice to follow through the salvation He has provided or to reject it for the miriad of reasons and excuses people come up with. The veracity of each excuse will be evident to Him, as He sees the truth in everything and keeps a record that we cannot hide from.
If we only live our lives for ourselves, then we have never realized our important purpose in life. To learn how to love in truth, Agape love or love that gives. By nature, we are egotistical and selfish, but through Christ and the help He sends us in His Holy Spirit, we can die to self and live a new life, overcoming sin and death. It is our choice, and we can put it off to walk the broad road, even denying His existence, or deal with it through the means He has provided and learn the deeper love that comes from God. It isn't the easy road, but challenges us to give of ourselves to others.

I JOHN 3:16-19 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with ACTIONS and TRUTH. This then is how we KNOW that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us.

 

[LilLamb219]

So answer, why isn't it good enough? Why are his standards so high for -his creation- that absolutely nobody passes?

His standards are high because Adam sinned and fell from grace, this means that humans cannot make themselves holy. God is the only one who could do that to get us up to His standards and He lovingly does so because He chose to come to earth in the form of man. He lived a sinless life that we could never do and died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. He did this all for us so that we could be reconciled to Him.

By His grace He gives the gift of faith to believe. There are some who will reject His forgiveness and still think they can work themselves to someplace better, but they are deceived.

God is not so weak that He can't use people to reach all ends of the earth to spread His Gospel (the Good News). It is the Gospel that actually creates faith within...it is effective because it contains His Word.

 

[gwilenius]

So, here's the deal. If I lived my life as I wanted, I couldn't get into heaven. Even if I want to live morally, and do so. Because even then, my life isn't good enough.

So answer, why isn't it good enough? Why are his standards so high for -his creation- that absolutely nobody passes?

Which makes me think of another question.

If nobody is righteous, no not one, then what happened with the Jews before Christianity? If they couldn't make it into heaven with those rules (apparently nobody can, that's why Jesus is "so important"), then did they all go to hell, even though they were doing what God told them to?

And if they went to heaven, they why is Jesus neccesary?

Hah, which brings up yet another.

Some Christians say that those people in tribles in the jungles or men that live on mountains etc get judged on what they know, and how they live their life (which is a misinterpretation of the text)....then why bring in all this extra crap that I, and Atheist, cannot make myself believe? Why not just have the whole world know nothing, and (guess what) judge them on how they act? (that's kinda how we do it, judge people for what they do, and not who they know, and it's kinda working for us)

And if you don't believe that (that people who've never heard of Jesus can get into heaven), then don't say anything about it. To me, those people are completely innocent, and there's nothing you can say to make me think your god is moral for giving them eternal punishment....just for being in the wrong place, wrong time.

I have a few minutes, I can provide some more later, but I would like to point out a few things-

- God, not us, is the judge of all. I can not say exactly how he will judge those who have NEVER heard of Jesus Christ or of God. Will He judge on works? Will He condemn them? I do not know. That is why He will judge and not us. We can voice our opinions and stand on some of the scriptures which say that all men must be saved through Jesus Christ - which is why he will not return until all men have been exposed to the gospel, then there will be no excuse for not knowing God.
- The Jews before Christ had the blood sacrifices to "wash" away their unrighteousness, something jesus did away with by voluntarily offering himself as a blood sacrifice for all man's sins, once and for all. We no longer rely on works alone, but on faith for salvation, faith proven by works. One without the other is useless.... The entire blood sacrifice issue, why animals were used, what types of animals, etc. is a complicated issue, but fully described in the old testament.
- Man disobeyed God in the beginning, that is what allowed sin to enter the world. By disobedience and "doing our own thing," we rebel against God and drive ourselves away. By obedience, we can be redeemed. This ovedience involves turning to Jesus Christ, who is our sacrifice, and laying our own lives on the alter (that is, giving up what we want to do) and allow God to work through us.
Christianity is simple, but if you want to go into details, it is all described in the Bible (The book of Hebrews is good for an understanding of the sacrifices and the relationship between Jesus and the Old Testament rituals.)

 

[12volt_man]

So answer, why isn't it good enough? Why are his standards so high for -his creation- that absolutely nobody passes?

Because His nature is absolutely and perfectly Holy, Righteous and just.

As such, His holiness and righteousness require a moral code and his just nature requires that He punish violations of that code.

If nobody is righteous, no not one, then what happened with the Jews before Christianity? If they couldn't make it into heaven with those rules (apparently nobody can, that's why Jesus is "so important"), then did they all go to hell, even though they were doing what God told them to?

And if they went to heaven, they why is Jesus neccesary?

The Jews were saved the same way we are: by Christ's atonement on the cross.

The only difference is that, while we look back on the cross, they looked forward to it. That's why Jesus told the Jewish leaders, "your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day" and why Paul tells us that Abraham was saved by faith. Abraham, as the father of Israel, is often used to refer to the nation of Israel and the Jewish people.

They kept the law as best as they could out of obedience until such time as the Messiah came to fulfill that law that they could not keep.

All throughout the OT, from Genesis on, the Jews are promised their salvation in the Messiah.

Hah, which brings up yet another.

Some Christians say that those people in tribles in the jungles or men that live on mountains etc get judged on what they know, and how they live their life (which is a misinterpretation of the text)....then why bring in all this extra crap that I, and Atheist, cannot make myself believe?

You're not in a tribe in the jungle.

Why not just have the whole world know nothing, and (guess what) judge them on how they act? (that's kinda how we do it, judge people for what they do, and not who they know, and it's kinda working for us)

Because no one could withstand such a judgement.

And if you don't believe that (that people who've never heard of Jesus can get into heaven), then don't say anything about it. To me, those people are completely innocent, and there's nothing you can say to make me think your god is moral for giving them eternal punishment....just for being in the wrong place, wrong time.

It's not up to me to make you think that God is moral. I can only tell you what God says.

That people have never heard the Gospel doesn't mean that they're not responsible for their actions.

God has revealed Himself to them and if they reject what has been revealed to them, then they are no better off than the rest of us.

 

[matthewgoh]

I believe God allows doubts and confusions, so that we can be saved by faith alone. God reveals himself to Christians, but he maintains his "hidden" nature to non believers.

I trust that God will be just to those who have not heard about Christ, but to those who have heard about Christ and reject him, God will uphold justice towards them as well.

We know that there will be great JOY in heaven - how can it be joyful if God is not fair, just and righteous?

God allows doubts and confusions to maintain his "hidden" nature, and it's pity non believers use these doubts and confusions as excuses to reject the salvation made possible by Christ's crucificion.

Why querrie and accuse our loving God? when we should accept his free gift and live happily by trusting that he is loving, just and righteous.

 

[Erock83]

So, here's the deal. If I lived my life as I wanted, I couldn't get into heaven. Even if I want to live morally, and do so. Because even then, my life isn't good enough.

So answer, why isn't it good enough? Why are his standards so high for -his creation- that absolutely nobody passes?

Which makes me think of another question.

If nobody is righteous, no not one, then what happened with the Jews before Christianity? If they couldn't make it into heaven with those rules (apparently nobody can, that's why Jesus is "so important"), then did they all go to hell, even though they were doing what God told them to?

And if they went to heaven, they why is Jesus neccesary?

Hah, which brings up yet another.

Some Christians say that those people in tribles in the jungles or men that live on mountains etc get judged on what they know, and how they live their life (which is a misinterpretation of the text)....then why bring in all this extra crap that I, and Atheist, cannot make myself believe? Why not just have the whole world know nothing, and (guess what) judge them on how they act? (that's kinda how we do it, judge people for what they do, and not who they know, and it's kinda working for us)

And if you don't believe that (that people who've never heard of Jesus can get into heaven), then don't say anything about it. To me, those people are completely innocent, and there's nothing you can say to make me think your god is moral for giving them eternal punishment....just for being in the wrong place, wrong time.

Fundamental answer —“Turn or Burn” *rabid foaming at mouth look*

Ok now that I got my one fundamental theist moment out for the year (well I put it off for a month it was now or sometime around Easter this just seemed a better time). You tell me that you are an atheist, thus I must assume that you are a believer in rational though. Which is awesome the world needs people that can take a look at ideas and think critically about them. You have been given some well indented advice about God and the nature of God, and not to say I don’t agree with the analysis given thus far. As a rational person too I realize that you are more than likely not swayed by appeals to emotion, but yet appeals to logic and reason. You think that reading the bible and saying every word is true verbatim is true and fact is un-educated, I will concur, besides lets be honest there are like 7-8 different translations for the English language alone. However the message with in any one of the them is more or less the same. God did something so how and we all are here 1 February 2006, God is really really powerful so its best not to make home boy too mad, God has compassion for people that are just a little annoying (poking him with a stick things like that) so he provide away back to happy natural high state, and eventually he will come back for everyone that truly believes that there is some higher power aka God. This basic story while hard to grasp does not fail any logical test nor is it outside of reason. Is it sometimes hard to believe, and to fallow, get used and abused for peoples own personal goals and admirations sure. Does that make the story and the way it prescribes to lead ones life any less lofty, most certainly not. I hear a half truth all the time form Christians talking about a personal relationship with Jesus. Ok well if its personal why do you all want me to act and talk just like you? That does not make since because it is not true. If you come to Christ your relationship with the man upstairs will be at its very roots different from mine or anybody else’s, now that latter point does nothing to prove there is a God just a point to keep in your back pocket next time someone comes up to you and want to draw you a bridge diagram (don’t ever admit every doing that to my face I do have a quick back hand) Well now it seems I’m rambling so I’ll leave you with the lyrical words of NAS
There is only One Truth, only One Love, so there can only be One King.

 

[dvd_holc]

Hello Exist,

It is possible for a human to be in harmony with him. God first made two humans which where in harmony with him. Second, Jesus became flesh and was in harmony with him. Even still after we become disobedient to him, we can desire to be back in his harmony. Those who want it more than anything else are who he saves. Those who are meek in spirit are people he saves. Those who are proud in themselves aren't. See life, sun, food, family, friends, animals, everything in existence is a gift not to be misused, but rather it is grace (a thing not deserving in nature). When you were born, it was not because you earn birth. When you eat though you participated in a fashion, all the sorrounding events that accomluated in bring about that meal to you is completely out of your control. Our input is very little though it does have effects in life. The ultimate control is beyond us and it is a gift...so then you can participate in life or death, harmony or disharmony, being a blessing for others or getting things for yourself and horriding it for yourself. So choice life and love because it is better to have pure love in life than not to have a incomplete life.

 

[gaweatherford]

So, here's the deal. If I lived my life as I wanted, I couldn't get into heaven. Even if I want to live morally, and do so. Because even then, my life isn't good enough.

So answer, why isn't it good enough? Why are his standards so high for -his creation- that absolutely nobody passes?

People do pass the standard. I think you're so preoccupied with the present presense of your self that you can't detect the big picture. Christ is part of the working plan of your makeup to make your life good enough to enter into heaven. Everything has a cause and effect and we are no exception to the rules. It just so happens that what causes us to be rightous in God's eyes is the effect of Christ in our lives. Don't anaylize it so much as to say that,"why could'nt God just go ahead and make us rightous in the first place" .......... because that does'nt make any sense either. You're part of this universe. You have a responsibility to cause and effect just like everything else. None of us, I mean NONE of us have anything to compare to so that we could declare if something is fit or unfit in our disposition with God. Since we were created ourselves we know nothing (much less can qualify) of what it takes of anything to become anything. Think of it like this: The state of our being (and the fact that it's not good enough to enter heaven) is a future that can change if we allow the effect to take place. The transformation that is provided by Christ's sacrifice not only enables us to enter into heaven, but it also, is merely the mechanics that are involved in enabling us to become that which God orders to be the cause in the effect for the transformation. Who of us is to say how and to what order events should transpire to eventually transform an object (man). Who is to say why they transformed the way they did, and whether or not it was proper for it being done the way it was. We simply have nothing to compare to and cannot measure an accountment to ourselves when evaluating what it takes to be of anything.

If nobody is righteous, no not one, then what happened with the Jews before Christianity? And if they went to heaven, they why is Jesus neccesary?

The Jews before Christ lived by the law to make their atonement for sin. It had to be done regularly and repeatedly. Christ was the onetime payment for sin and made the atonement permanant. This all time and forever atonement was forecasted in the beginning (literally-in Genesis) at the advent of sin, by God. All of the time that occurred between the advent of sin and the coming of God's onetime, for all time, atonement (Jesus) is exactly what I just referred to it as........Time. The time between these two major events (Complete defilement--->Complete redemption) was spent, progressively in the history of man, as the neccessary steps prescribed in time to get from pont A to point B. This answer is somewhat similar, at least in respects to time,cause and effect, as the 1st answer I gave above. Here again, I think you're just preoccupied with effect itself, without relating to a divine cause for it all. We are the ones locked into time and the ones who will have to endure as it unfolds. God prescribes.....time unfolds....and history adheres to God's prescription. There may be no specific order to predict for events and how all the parts will arrange to end at God's word; but, we do know that they will adhere, organize, prepare and build momentum to gather together to make his word true.

To me, those people are completely innocent, and there's nothing you can say to make me think your god is moral for giving them eternal punishment....just for being in the wrong place, wrong time.

You may be actually right there to some extent, because John 5:24 says:
Truly I say to you, he that heareth my word and believes on him that sent me hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death into life. In this particular verse the prerequisite is to hear first, then believe, then be saved. The one's that do not hear (an innocent person or tribe) are not aware of the "word" so they cannot believe; therefore, death and hell may not be a consequence for them (as you stated), but only for those who have heard and ignored.

 

[lindamarie]

So, here's the deal. If I lived my life as I wanted, I couldn't get into heaven. Even if I want to live morally, and do so. Because even then, my life isn't good enough.

So answer, why isn't it good enough? Why are his standards so high for -his creation- that absolutely nobody passes?

Which makes me think of another question.

If nobody is righteous, no not one, then what happened with the Jews before Christianity? If they couldn't make it into heaven with those rules (apparently nobody can, that's why Jesus is "so important"), then did they all go to hell, even though they were doing what God told them to?

And if they went to heaven, they why is Jesus neccesary?

Hah, which brings up yet another.

Some Christians say that those people in tribles in the jungles or men that live on mountains etc get judged on what they know, and how they live their life (which is a misinterpretation of the text)....then why bring in all this extra crap that I, and Atheist, cannot make myself believe? Why not just have the whole world know nothing, and (guess what) judge them on how they act? (that's kinda how we do it, judge people for what they do, and not who they know, and it's kinda working for us)

And if you don't believe that (that people who've never heard of Jesus can get into heaven), then don't say anything about it. To me, those people are completely innocent, and there's nothing you can say to make me think your god is moral for giving them eternal punishment....just for being in the wrong place, wrong time.

I don't have much time to write, Exist... but I want to suggest that if God is God, none of us really totally understand Him.

You are asking good questions, but I think you're asking the wrong people... The only One who can reveal to you the true answers about God would be God, wouldn't you think?

I don't know if you've made up your mind, but if there is any "agnostic" in your heart, maybe you could start seeing if you can find God... We rarely find anything of worth, if we're not looking.

"Good luck"... and thanks for sharing...

lindamarie

 

[The Midge]

So, here's the deal. If I lived my life as I wanted, I couldn't get into heaven. Even if I want to live morally, and do so. Because even then, my life isn't good enough.

So answer, why isn't it good enough? Why are his standards so high for -his creation- that absolutely nobody passes?

Which makes me think of another question.

If nobody is righteous, no not one, then what happened with the Jews before Christianity? If they couldn't make it into heaven with those rules (apparently nobody can, that's why Jesus is "so important"), then did they all go to hell, even though they were doing what God told them to?

And if they went to heaven, they why is Jesus neccesary?

Hah, which brings up yet another.

Some Christians say that those people in tribles in the jungles or men that live on mountains etc get judged on what they know, and how they live their life (which is a misinterpretation of the text)....then why bring in all this extra crap that I, and Atheist, cannot make myself believe? Why not just have the whole world know nothing, and (guess what) judge them on how they act? (that's kinda how we do it, judge people for what they do, and not who they know, and it's kinda working for us)

And if you don't believe that (that people who've never heard of Jesus can get into heaven), then don't say anything about it. To me, those people are completely innocent, and there's nothing you can say to make me think your god is moral for giving them eternal punishment....just for being in the wrong place, wrong time.

Dear Exist,
Never mind God's standards. Can you honestly say that you have lived up to your own standards?

 

[Delta38]

To Exist:

So, here's the deal. If I lived my life as I wanted, I couldn't get into heaven. Even if I want to live morally, and do so. Because even then, my life isn't good enough. So answer, why isn't it good enough? Why are his standards so high for -his creation- that absolutely nobody passes?

Because God is a holy God in whose presence sin cannot stand.

If nobody is righteous, no not one, then what happened with the Jews before Christianity? If they couldn't make it into heaven with those rules (apparently nobody can, that's why Jesus is "so important"), then did they all go to hell, even though they were doing what God told them to?

The Jews time and time again sacrficed lamb for the remission of their sins. However, because Adam's (man's) blood does not flow through lamb and animals, the sacrifice is only temporary (a "covering") and had to be repeated time and time again after sinning. But Jesus came to be the Lamb of God who could take all the sins of the whole world and be an sacrifice for them. We now approach God recognising what He did for us and ask for forgiveness and we'll receive it.

And if they went to heaven, they why is Jesus neccesary?

So that all people (not just the Jews) may be saved and more importantly come into a loving relationship with God. You see, it isn't religiousness that will save you now, that isn't what God wants. He wants a relationship with men and women.

Hah, which brings up yet another.

Some Christians say that those people in tribles in the jungles or men that live on mountains etc get judged on what they know, and how they live their life (which is a misinterpretation of the text)....then why bring in all this extra crap that I, and Atheist, cannot make myself believe? Why not just have the whole world know nothing, and (guess what) judge them on how they act? (that's kinda how we do it, judge people for what they do, and not who they know, and it's kinda working for us)

On Judgment Day we'll all be asked two general things:
1. What have you done with Jesus? The answer to this generally determines where your eternal address is.
2. What have you done with what I gave you? This is where you'll give an account for your life and what you've done with the gifts that God has given you. This will determine what you do in eternity.

Faith in Christ is the way to the Father and receive salvation. You can try to live by the law, but you will condemned by it. Or, you can live under grace and be saved.

And if you don't believe that (that people who've never heard of Jesus can get into heaven), then don't say anything about it. To me, those people are completely innocent, and there's nothing you can say to make me think your god is moral for giving them eternal punishment....just for being in the wrong place, wrong time.

I actually believe that these people will be shown mercy as I, like you appearently, believe that you cannot hold someone accountable for something that they did not know about, cannot comprehend, and have no heard about. God has a special heart for the disabled, the widows, the orphans, those suffering, and I believe that His love and mercy will shine on such as those. However, those who have no excuse at all have in effect, asked for God's justice. Paul tells us that eternal death is something that we deserve or earn - "The wages of sin is death". So no one can tell me that eternal condemnation is "unjust" when clearly it is something that we deserve.

The Bible does say that there is more than enough evidence in the world to convince people that He exists, but ultimately it is God as sovereign judge who will judge people. But make no mistake, God takes no pleasure in the suffering of the wicked. It is not God who sends people to hell, rather people send themselves there through their unbelief ("Jesus go AWAY" attitude) and clinging to their sins. So, in effect, they will get what they ask for.

From,
Delta 38.

 

[prophecystudent]

So, here's the deal. If I lived my life as I wanted, I couldn't get into heaven. Even if I want to live morally, and do so. Because even then, my life isn't good enough.

So answer, why isn't it good enough? Why are his standards so high for -his creation- that absolutely nobody passes?

God's standards are high because He is perfect and cannot tolerate less than perfection. Nobody passes because we are human. God gave us free will when He made us. Just like He gave Adam and Eve free will when he made them. He gave them a test and they failed. He told them they could eat of any tree in the garden except the tree in the center of the garden. That was the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If they had not eaten of that tree, instead eating from the tree of life, they would have passed the test, been sinless and lived forever in close fellowship with God. As you are probably aware, they sinned, and because they CHOSE to. We all sin, most of us every day in one way or another.

Which makes me think of another question.

If nobody is righteous, no not one, then what happened with the Jews before Christianity? If they couldn't make it into heaven with those rules (apparently nobody can, that's why Jesus is "so important"), then did they all go to hell, even though they were doing what God told them to?

God in His infinite love for mankind provided a way for us to be saved from the eternal punishment that He warns us about. That way was through Jesus Christ. All people who lived before Christ came to earth (not just Jews) fall under a different plan than those of us who came along after Christ. God is fully just, and makes no mistakes, and provides a method for all His people.

And if they went to heaven, they why is Jesus neccesary?

The Jews before Christ went to heaven because of two things. God's love for mankind and Christ.

Hah, which brings up yet another.

Some Christians say that those people in tribles in the jungles or men that live on mountains etc get judged on what they know, and how they live their life (which is a misinterpretation of the text)....then why bring in all this extra crap that I, and Atheist, cannot make myself believe? Why not just have the whole world know nothing, and (guess what) judge them on how they act? (that's kinda how we do it, judge people for what they do, and not who they know, and it's kinda working for us)

Take a look around! Do you actually believe that mankind is doing well without God? Get real, my friend.

And if you don't believe that (that people who've never heard of Jesus can get into heaven), then don't say anything about it. To me, those people are completely innocent, and there's nothing you can say to make me think your god is moral for giving them eternal punishment....just for being in the wrong place, wrong time.

Sounds to me like you need to study a lot more of the bible. Perhaps then you could understand the salvation process established by God.

God said that those who hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and reject it (and Christ) are doomed to spend eternity with the devil in the lake of fire.

Those who never heard the gospel will be judged on another basis.

Now you have heard the gospel of Christ from a number of responses to your questions. Therefor, when you stand in front of Christ and try to explain you life, you will be judged according to your works. Those works include rejecting Christ, the Son of God who died a horrible death to pay the price for our sins.

Unless you change your belief structure and accept Christ, you will spend eternity with Satan and it will not be pleasant. Good luck

Fred

 

[Exist]

"Unless you change your belief structure and accept Christ, you will spend eternity with Satan and it will not be pleasant. Good luck"

This is all I'm going respond to for now.

Islam has the same get up as you do. Paradise for believers, torture for unbelievers. So what are you going to do about that? Can you make yourself just...."believe" in Islam? No? Why not? Because it doesn't make sense to you/because other things make more sense, etc. Same here. The threats of hell doesn't mean anything to me, because I can't change my beliefs any more than you can change your beliefs about the color of your monitor of the computer screen you're looking at right now. You may want it to be another color, but people can't just simply change their beliefs without good reason to.

 

[Exist]

"Going by hearsay is the easy and lazy way, but if life is worth anything at all, it is worth doing personal study and a little effort.
I didn't want to hear anything about God for the first 27 years of my life, and I went on whatever anybody said that suited what I wanted to hear, so I've been there and done that."

I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? I've been into religion since I was 14, and the whole time, I studied Christianity (among others). And you're also saying that I just accept whatever anybody says that suits me....without cursing here (because to me, that's a great insult), how do you know that's what I do?


"God is not so weak that He can't use people to reach all ends of the earth to spread His Gospel"

By definition he's not, and yet there are still many places in the world where the gospel is absent.


"The entire blood sacrifice issue, why animals were used, what types of animals, etc. is a complicated issue, but fully described in the old testament."

Yes, so what you're saying is that humans have entered into heaven with no need of Jesus. Which to me, brings up two questions, why is Jesus neccesary, and why does "Forgiveness of sin only comes from the shedding of blood"? Why must something die for God to be happy with us? Seems pretty sadistic, wouldn't you agree?


"and why Paul tells us that Abraham was saved by faith."

So being saved has nothing to do with Jesus being the Lord of your life, like the Bible says, but by "faith". By the way, what does faith here mean? And how do you know that Abraham wasn't saved by faith in God, and not Jesus?


"You're not in a tribe in the jungle."

And your point?


"Because no one could withstand such a judgement."

I thought God was all-loving and all-powerful? If he truly loved us, nothing would force him to send us to hell. Being omnipotent, he isn't having his arm twisted into making anyone burn. If he does anything, it's because he wants to.


"I believe God allows doubts and confusions, so that we can be saved by faith alone. God reveals himself to Christians, but he maintains his "hidden" nature to non believers."

And why is faith so neccesary? Why can't we know that he exists, and live our lives either following him or not? I know many Atheists that would follow God if only they knew he existed. Why is faith valued more than human souls? Or is this just a cop-out to the question, "You claim there's a God; where is he?"


"God allows doubts and confusions to maintain his "hidden" nature, and it's pity non believers use these doubts and confusions as excuses to reject the salvation made possible by Christ's crucificion."

No, see, you don't seem to understand how it works. We don't say "I have doubts, therefore I'll choose to not believe in God." It's "there are too many contradictions in the concept of God, and too little evidence to believe one exists, therefore (with no choice involved) I find myself not believing in it."


"tell me that you are an atheist, thus I must assume that you are a believer in rational though."

You don't have to, but if you did, you would assume correctly.


"As a rational person too I realize that you are more than likely not swayed by appeals to emotion"

Emotions are a big part of human life. My logical arguments are only half of why I'm not a Christian. My heart tells me that the Biblical god is an evil one (if it exists), and not something I would worship, even with the threat of hell in front of me.


"God is really really powerful so its best not to make home boy too mad,"

I don't appeal to power. If I see something wrong, I will fight it.


"This basic story while hard to grasp does not fail any logical test nor is it outside of reason."

Hard to grasp meaning there's little evidence for this? Besides, what you say isn't Biblical: the demons believe in God, doesn't mean they'll be in heaven on Judgement day.

 

[Exist]

"People do pass the standard."

No, people dont' pass the standard. Everybody fails judgement, but some people have the cheat codes that make them exempt from judgement. I'm asking why everybody fails judgement (and why is it called judgement, if nobody passes? Why isn't it called, YouAllGoToHellment?)


"Don't anaylize it so much as to say that,"why could'nt God just go ahead and make us rightous in the first place" .......... because that does'nt make any sense either."

Why not? Why can't some of us be good, and be rewarded for being good, while those who do bad are punished for being bad?


"The Jews before Christ lived by the law to make their atonement for sin."

So Jesus is unneccesary for humans to get into heaven. Tell me again, why did he come?


"It had to be done regularly and repeatedly."
Why?


"In this particular verse the prerequisite is to hear first, then believe, then be saved. The one's that do not hear (an innocent person or tribe) are not aware of the "word" so they cannot believe; therefore, death and hell may not be a consequence for them (as you stated), "

What about all the rest of the verses that make it clear that only through Jesus can you get to the Father (or to heaven)? You just discount them?


"but I want to suggest that if God is God, none of us really totally understand Him."

That's possible. But it's also possible that God is a concept that grew flaws as it evolved, "so none of us really totally understand him."


"I don't know if you've made up your mind, but if there is any "agnostic" in your heart, maybe you could start seeing if you can find God... We rarely find anything of worth, if we're not looking."

I did start by seeing if I could find God. I didn't find him. Now I'm Atheist. I'll always be an epistemelogical agnostic, but for now (and until I find new evidence that changes my mind), I'm an Atheist.


"Never mind God's standards. Can you honestly say that you have lived up to your own standards?"

Yes, I have. I have lived the way that I really wanted to live, and I am happy. I make mistakes, and I pay the price for it, but I continue to make myself better, I continue being happy.


"Because God is a holy God in whose presence sin cannot stand."

Why? He created humans so that they may have a loving relationship with God, and he knew that when he created them, all of them would sin sometime. Something doesn't add up. Either the Bible is wrong and our purpose isn't to have a loving relationship with him, or the Bible is wrong and he didn't create us, or the Bible is wrong and he's a crappy craftsman (not all-powerful), or the Bible is wrong and he doesn't know everything.


"However, because Adam's (man's) blood does not flow through lamb and animals, the sacrifice is only temporary (a "covering") and had to be repeated time and time again after sinning."

Hmm. How did you get this little nugget of reasoning? Where in the Bible is this?


"We now approach God recognising what He did for us and ask for forgiveness and we'll receive it."

What if, deep down in our heart, we don't believe God exists? What do we do then?

"On Judgment Day we'll all be asked two general things:
1. What have you done with Jesus? The answer to this generally determines where your eternal address is.
2. What have you done with what I gave you? This is where you'll give an account for your life and what you've done with the gifts that God has given you. This will determine what you do in eternity.

Faith in Christ is the way to the Father and receive salvation. You can try to live by the law, but you will condemned by it. Or, you can live under grace and be saved."

You posted this in response to something I wrote, but I just can't see the relavance.

"I actually believe that these people will be shown mercy as I, like you appearently, believe that you cannot hold someone accountable for something that they did not know about, cannot comprehend, and have no heard about."

Well, what you actually believe goes against what the Bible says. It's quite clear that only through Jesus can one get into heaven.


"Paul tells us that eternal death is something that we deserve or earn - 'The wages of sin is death'. So no one can tell me that eternal condemnation is 'unjust' when clearly it is something that we deserve."

It "clearly" is something we deserve....because Paul said it? See, in my heart, I know that humans, any human, is not worthy of eternal torture. If your God thinks we are, then we disagree, in the sadest of ways.


"The Bible does say that there is more than enough evidence in the world to convince people that He exists,"
Obviously not enough, as "Non-belief" is the fastest growing religious belief system in America according to informal government polls. Not enough evidence for me, anyway.


"people send themselves there through their unbelief ("Jesus go AWAY" attitude)"

An attitude is something that we can (usually) change through force of will. Belief is something we cannot. Besides, I like Jesus, he's a really cool cat. I just think people lied about him and what he said.


"Sounds to me like you need to study a lot more of the bible."

haha, and yet chances are, I know more about the Bible than you do. My father is a Southern Baptist pastor, and debating/discussing religion/philosophy is one of my favorite things to do. I know what the Bible says about salvation, and yet there are still questions unanswered.


"Those who never heard the gospel will be judged on another basis."

See, this is what I'm talking about. Where does the Bible say this? And how can you say this when many other verses are quite clear that the only way to heaven is through Jesus?

 

[matthewgoh]

Dear Exist,

I respect your knowledge of bible and your extra-ordinary skills in defending atheism.

You know very well what our Lord says; no one sees God unless he sees Christ. So, you can defend atheism simply because God allows it. Obviously our salvation is far more important than showing his glory.

All doubts, confusions and the issue of non-believers will be answered with complete justice, and there will be great JOY in heaven - which means all the unjusts you mentioned above are merely our earthly perceptions.

It's a choice, of course there're reasons and arguments whenever there's a choice, or else it's not a choice.

 

[gaweatherford]

"People do pass the standard."

No, people dont' pass the standard. Everybody fails judgement, but some people have the cheat codes that make them exempt from judgement. I'm asking why everybody fails judgement (and why is it called judgement, if nobody passes? Why isn't it called, YouAllGoToHellment?)

I'm not sure how you're still coming up with this based on the way it's already been explained. I really don't think you're taking the rational explanations you've received thus far quite deep enough. People DO pass the standard. NOT everybody fails the judgement. Christ is the cause in us all, which effects the standard in us all, which is acceptable by God. In addition to that, genuine change occurs in a persons life over time as they follow Christ. Their thoughts and actions are renewed into a Christ like manner. True, we can never overcome not deserving the gift of Christ, but we can act like we appreciate it and respect it for being given. A "cheat code" is something you get that you were'nt supposed to, just so you can get by. Consequentially, it never changes who you really are; but, the gift of Christ is a "paid for code" that was designed and paid for, specifically for you to become what is neccessary to be fair and just. So, we have nothing to complain about! Consequentially, this "cheat code" slowly transforms us into at least, "one who is more like the original code itself, than when they first started out". To forsake change itself, just because of what we used to be, fails to recognize the fundamental mechanics of growth and change itself as well as the expectation for something better. Would you not bother planting a seed because you know if you don't water it, it will shrivel up and die? I don't think so...unless you were just obsessed with the fact that it could die. That seems to be the enigma that you can't escape from. A person's (or a seed's) potential for success has nothing to do with it's present state. It has to do with the proper ingredients and enviorment being added, for whether or not it will become and be what it is supposed to be. I'd encourage you to let yourself be what you're intended to be by not being so inspired by what you are.
II Cor. 9:6- He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he
which soweth bountifylly shall reap also bountifully.

So Jesus is unneccesary for humans to get into heaven. Tell me again, why did he come?

Jesus is neccessary since you exist after the time he had come. The Jews were looking for him to come and were saved in respects "for when it ever happened". Their trust and belief in God, and in this predicted saving grace, is what saved them. (just like it is still today). The principle (Christ) has never changed to what would save all of mankind. The only change was the specifics of history, as they unraveled around this center (Christ), and while time fullfilled the word of God. If your mom and dad said you would go to college, then the principle for that to manifest and occur is the money to do so. Prior to the money being made and presented will have nothing to do with the promise and your belief that you will go to college. Once the money does arrive and pays for college, then the fact remains the same- that you were going to college, and the principle to do so was cash. The money- [the principle (the Christ)] is merely the center point between the promise. It is the promise that saves and the principle, Christ, is part of the history of the promise.

"It had to be done regularly and repeatedly."
Why?

The time before the "final solution" involved drastic measures for works of symbolism to show their respect for their condition and their expectation for the Messiah.

"In this particular verse the prerequisite is to hear first, then believe, then be saved. The one's that do not hear (an innocent person or tribe) are not aware of the "word" so they cannot believe; therefore, death and hell may not be a consequence for them (as you stated), "

What about all the rest of the verses that make it clear that only through Jesus can you get to the Father (or to heaven)? You just discount them?

I'm not discounting them. I'm seeing their truths as a whole. If you said you had 50 cents in your pockets, then that does'nt mean that you will pull out 2 quarters. You could pull out a lot of differant change,.... but it will equal 50 cents. Only through Jesus will anyone be able to get to the father. That was true before he came, while he was here, and after he left. There is no message in the Bible that states that "innocent" people are condemned.........only the un-innocent. People are un-innocent when the truth is applied and deems them as such. At this point in this discussion that would definetely be you........but I'm not sure about a remote tribe in a jungle. The main consensus to note, concerning "other peoples futures", is that we don't need to worry about it because it's enough for us to worry about ourself. Peter, in John 21:22, wants the same type question answered, as you have posed. Jesus's answer is very point blank- "What is that to you?" Our own personal responsibility in anything is to follow Christ's lead and to not be distracted from doing so.

 

[The Virginian]

So, here's the deal. If I lived my life as I wanted, I couldn't get into heaven. Even if I want to live morally, and do so. Because even then, my life isn't good enough.

So answer, why isn't it good enough? Why are his standards so high for -his creation- that absolutely nobody passes?

Which makes me think of another question.

If nobody is righteous, no not one, then what happened with the Jews before Christianity? If they couldn't make it into heaven with those rules (apparently nobody can, that's why Jesus is "so important"), then did they all go to hell, even though they were doing what God told them to?

And if they went to heaven, they why is Jesus neccesary?

Hah, which brings up yet another.

Some Christians say that those people in tribles in the jungles or men that live on mountains etc get judged on what they know, and how they live their life (which is a misinterpretation of the text)....then why bring in all this extra crap that I, and Atheist, cannot make myself believe? Why not just have the whole world know nothing, and (guess what) judge them on how they act? (that's kinda how we do it, judge people for what they do, and not who they know, and it's kinda working for us)

And if you don't believe that (that people who've never heard of Jesus can get into heaven), then don't say anything about it. To me, those people are completely innocent, and there's nothing you can say to make me think your god is moral for giving them eternal punishment....just for being in the wrong place, wrong time.

Now here's an interesting thng: people will readily accept the mercy and grace of God, but will staunchly deny God any right to their obedience and worship.
The high standards of God should enlighten you to the absolute need for mercy and grace, on your part in living to please God. And miracle of miracles, that mercy and grace is provided through the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of the Son of God.

All this other 'crap' as you call it is for one thing: to answer the questions, so that a person might know what God expexts of them. If you choose not to believe that God exists, or that He - in the person of Jesus Christ- died for the sins of the world, that man may again have the fellowship and communion enjoyed by Adam and Eve prior to the Fall, Quit beating your head against the Rock of salvation. A human cannot outrun, out fight, think, or out reason God.
I find it beyond the pale, when people want to have God in their life, enjoy His benefits, and then deny His commands. It really is unbelievable!

 

[lindamarie]

but I want to suggest that if God is God, none of us really totally understand Him."

That's possible. But it's also possible that God is a concept that grew flaws as it evolved, "so none of us really totally understand him."


"I don't know if you've made up your mind, but if there is any "agnostic" in your heart, maybe you could start seeing if you can find God... We rarely find anything of worth, if we're not looking."

I did start by seeing if I could find God. I didn't find him. Now I'm Atheist. I'll always be an epistemelogical agnostic, but for now (and until I find new evidence that changes my mind), I'm an Atheist.

Please notice that I said If God is God... not if God is a concept...

Concepts, of course, can be flawed. God, as we generally talk about Him, is Perfect and Holy...

Having said that, may I submit that you're much to young too have "looked everywhere" for God... There are people who have sought after Him for years and years, and although they have found Him, they still seek to know Him more...

If, as you intimated, you are looking for "new evidence", don't give up. If you simply enjoy debate, that's OK, too...

I hope, though, you aren't fooling yourself as to your motive.