God Created Man (Adam) Sin-ful

[Eloy Craft]

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul was teaching about the dominion of sin over man. That man didn't know that that there is a power dominating his life. The Law exposes that dominion of sin because when there is a law trespassing increases not decreases. The dominion of sin increases when there is a Law. Before the law there were few trespasses even though there was more sinning. With the Law there was less sinning but more trespasses. The power of sin to dominate man increased with the law even though there was less sin. The purpose of the Law was to make those under the law aware that sin had power that they could not overcome. That they needed a savior.

Fairly simple. Paul says that it was the existence of a "thou shalt not" which evidenced he was a sinner even before the act of coveting he was guilty of.

That for Adam was not for exposing sin's dominion over him. Just a law in his heart (conscience) to obey. God wrote His Law on our hearts.

The Command of God is Law and the Law of God are Commands.
The existence of a "thou shalt not" in the garden evidences the man (Adam) was a sinner before the act of eating from the tree. In other words it can be said in Pauline fashion that (Adam) had not known sin but by the law: for I (Adam) had not known disobedience, except the law/command said, Thou shalt not eat of it!"

No, Adam had every necessary advantage over sin to not be a sinner. God included Adams sin and it's consequences in His plan so as to not allow corruption to be the final end of creation. The purpose of the law after sin was to expose sin's hidden dominion over man. The purpose of the law before sin was to make avoiding sin natural to being human.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Here's the test.

If man has a will to resist God in your model then does he have the capacity to will to resist God eternally?
If yes, then man has FREE will.

If no, then man does NOT HAVE free will.

That's all.

Folks.

That's a common misconception. The will to resist God is an obstruction to to the true object of the will. The true object of the will is the good of God. In that good human life finds fulfillment. The purpose of free will is to be able to do what is necessary to reach our final end in God. If the object of the will is a good that is not of God, then the will is not free to fulfill it's purpose .

Sin darkens the mind to the good of God and becomes an obstacle to the will. The will is less able to choose what ought to be done as sin increases.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

That's a common misconception. The will to resist God is an obstruction to to the true object of the will. The true object of the will is the good of God. In that good human life finds fulfillment. The purpose of free will is to be able to do what is necessary to reach our final end in God. If the object of the will is a good that is not of God, then the will is not free to fulfill it's purpose .

Sin darkens the mind to the good of God and becomes an obstacle to the will. The will is less able to choose what ought to be done as sin increases.

The law of our mother (at the tree) without the commandment of our father (Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat) leads to a needful confusion.

 

[Eloy Craft]

The law of our mother (at the tree) without the commandment of our father (Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat) leads to a needful confusion.

The idea that man developed a conscience because of the knowledge gained by eating the forbidden fruit is not true. The knowledge of evil was in the heart (conscience) where God's law is written. The knowledge of evil that came from doing evil was being evil. The mode of knowing changed to knowing in their 'being'. From knowing evil to being evil. Two modes of knowing.
The experience of confusion as needed is the real issue concerning your statement. How can it ever be good ? Satan introduced the dialogue with Eve with a statement to cause confusion. “Did God say, ‘You shall not eat from any tree in the garden’?” At best Eve was responding to a sinful desire for knowledge beyond what God has revealed. God knows how to make our evil choices work for His own good. Not that our evil choices are a good. To say that Eve chose something needed is saying she chose a good of God that required sin . That God didn't Give man every good needed to remain in friendship with Him. That God found it good for us to reject Him. That God wanted man to be evil so man can be good.That He created man lacking good and imperfect. God permitted evil but it wasn't necessary.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

The idea that man developed a conscience because of the knowledge gained by eating the forbidden fruit is not true. The knowledge of evil was in the heart (conscience) where God's law is written. The knowledge of evil that came from doing evil was being evil. The mode of knowing changed to knowing in their 'being'. From knowing evil to being evil. Two modes of knowing.
The experience of confusion as needed is the real issue concerning your statement. How can it ever be good ? Satan introduced the dialogue with Eve with a statement to cause confusion. “Did God say, ‘You shall not eat from any tree in the garden’?” At best Eve was responding to a sinful desire for knowledge beyond what God has revealed. God knows how to make our evil choices work for His own good. Not that our evil choices are a good. To say that Eve chose something needed is saying she chose a good of God that required sin . That God didn't Give man every good needed to remain in friendship with Him. That God found it good for us to reject Him. That God wanted man to be evil so man can be good.That He created man lacking good and imperfect. God permitted evil but it wasn't necessary.

What man lost was God consciousness. Adam was one, alone. God spoke the commandment only one time, to Adam. God put him in a deep slumber, wounded his side to take out the woman who prepared the feast that he ate. (The woman, a picture of our soul as the one who gives us to eat...is the same as taking thought (Jesus says take no thought...) )
They were naked and not ashamed...until Adam heard God's voice outside of himself for the first time after eating and the eyesight change. Kicked out... ("Therefore remember from where you have fallen...")

The woman’s desire is to be towards her husband, just as the man cleaves to the woman (I will never leave you or forsake you), a truth of an internal process...God is our husband...The truth of soul and spirit is really one truth of self, as a two made one again...(as the one became two in the beginning.)

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

This journey of the soul that leads to this being who we are in relationship to our father, which is this tree in the midst of us...just as Jesus said where the kingdom is...Just as God asked Adam, "Where art thou?"..."Who told you that you were naked?"....and "Hast thou eaten..."

Adam did not name the woman "Eve" until after the fall, though God's day begins in the evening...

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hello A_Thinker (like the handle).
Well, well, freewill?

I used to believe in free will but the Scripture changed all that.

Hmmm, scripture corrects you again and again it seems.

Ezra 7:13
"I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee."

Time to rethink everything in your belief system and be taught again the first principles.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The existence of a "thou shalt not" in the garden evidences the man (Adam) was a sinner before the act of eating from the tree.

Since you start with and use a false premise here,
nothing that you base upon your false premise that you have stated and obviously accepted from someone , some enemy of Christ Jesus opposed to HIS WORD, opposed to YHVH,
is any good.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

All the conversations/ posts/ that were based on the false premise, or on anything that came after the false premise, is futile.
i.e. discussions of any false conclusions are futile due to the false beginning premise.

 

[A_Thinker]

Hmmm, scripture corrects you again and again it seems.

Ezra 7:13
"I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee."

Time to rethink everything in your belief system and be taught again the first principles.

Wow ... you learn something new everyday ...