God created imperfection?

[barman]

I know this is a common basic question, but I have not yet heard any convincing answers:

God created man to be perfect.

Man used his God given free will to make himself imperfect.

Therefore man could never have been perfect in the first place if he God created him with the inate ability to spoil God's perfection.

Therefore God created imperfection?

 

[Philip]

Perhaps you're understanding of the word perfect is flawed. What does it mean to you?

 

[Rafael]

God new man would fall and already had the solution in advance - "the lamb that was slain before the foundations"
The reason that He created a contrast to Himself was so that He could be know in His fulness. What better way to show light that to show what the light looks like compared to the dark. Darkness is dispelled by light, and is the evidence of ultimate impotency. The scriptures do say that He foreknew that part of His creation was evil, and how better to show forth the light than with a contrast of darkness. I think this existence of evil is the only way that we are able to know and discern who God is and be drawn to that light and power.
God states through His Spirit to Paul that He suffers the vessels of wrath, where evil exists, for a time so that His power and wrath will be shown. God created evil so He would be discernable and knowable to His elect, vessels of mercy, and be called out.
This plan has been from the beginning so that God could create and have fellowship with a creation in His own image as FAMILY, like unto brothers, as Jesus will be our brother. After God accomplishes His will with man, evil is cast out along with those vessels.

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[barman]

Perhaps you're understanding of the word perfect is flawed. What does it mean to you?

Perfection = unblemished, faultless.

Now we know man cannot create anything truly perfect, only something close, but we do know God can create truly perfect beings or objects if he wishes.

Therefore when God creates something perfect no other being or entity will be able to find fault in it.

 

[Rafael]

Perfection = unblemished, faultless.

Now we know man cannot create anything truly perfect, only something close, but we do know God can create truly perfect beings or objects if he wishes.

Therefore when God creates something perfect no other being or entity will be able to find fault in it.

I think our understanding of perfection is flawed as a whole, if this is what Philip is getting at. God created all things with knowledge we do not have or we would be doing the same as God - being able to create life and the universe.
To say how God can or cannot create something is supposition on our part since we have no such abilities and can only imagine what such powers are like and the rules that apply to them.

 

[barman]

God new man would fall and already had the solution in advance - "the lamb that was slain before the foundations"
The reason that He created a contrast to Himself was so that He could be know in His fulness. What better way to show light that to show what the light looks like compared to the dark....

A better way would be to show His fullness without introducing evil or suffering.

I believe that because He is all powerful he would easily be able to do this in such a way that we can appreciate all that is good and great about God without requiring the light / dark contrast.

We might not be able to imagine exactly what that world would be like, but no one can argue that God doesn't have the power to create such a world if he so desired, including free will into the bargain. Maybe such perfect worlds exist and we don't know about them?

 

[barman]

I think our understanding of perfection is flawed as a whole, if this is what Philip is getting at. God created all things with knowledge we do not have or we would be doing the same as God - being able to create life and the universe.
To say how God can or cannot create something is supposition on our part since we have no such abilities and can only imagine what such powers are like and the rules that apply to them.

We know God's powers are limitless, therefore we know that God has the theoretical power to create any scenario that we can think of, and an infinite number of further scenarios that we're just not capable of imagining. As you say, we cannot fully understand why he chose this particular design.

My dilemma is that I can see there must be an infinite number of universe designs that have all the upside (no evil, no suffering, man's clear ability to see God's glory in all it's greatness, free will, harmony and peace etc) and none of the downside (evil, suffering, no free will, no ability to perceive God's glory, war etc).

 

[Philip]

Perfection = unblemished, faultless.

Then I fail to see how you reach your conclusion. Man was made unblemished. That does not mean that he was made protected from all future blemishes.

 

[sbbqb7n16]

I see how that is complicated but here's my also complicated answer:

If the goal is to create a being that can make decisions for itself... then it is neccessary for that being to be able to choose an imperfect choice or else the being cannot choose for its own and is therefore not perfect.

IOW the ability God gave to choose to be imperfect was part of man being perfectly made.

Does that make sense? Hope so... have a great day!

 

[hogrifle]

"Therefore man could never have been perfect in the first place if he God created him with the inate ability to spoil God's perfection."
This is roughly equivalent to concluding that since no one called you up on the phone yesterday, this was something which was never possible. No one would ever say that. What never occurred may have occurred. Human actions do not determine fate and thus lock out all other possibilities. Believe me, Adam COULD have obeyed, just as one of your friends COULD have called you up on the phone.

 

[Svt4Him]

My mother took pottery, and make me an eagle once. Painted it all gold, it looked great. No cracks, no flaws, it was perfect. Then my roommate dropped it, and it broke. So therefore my mother made me a broken pot?

 

[Svt4Him]

oops, not broken pot, broken eagle.

 

[barman]

I see how that is complicated but here's my also complicated answer:

If the goal is to create a being that can make decisions for itself... then it is neccessary for that being to be able to choose an imperfect choice or else the being cannot choose for its own and is therefore not perfect.

IOW the ability God gave to choose to be imperfect was part of man being perfectly made.

Does that make sense? Hope so... have a great day!

Good answer.

It's just such a shame that humans were created with such a weak faith in God that they succumbed to temptation at the first hurdle, leading to untold misery and suffering for millions of descendants.

It seems to me that God must have known in advance the amount of suffering that would result from his particular universe design. He would have known the likelihood of man disobeying him and didn't seem to give man the strength of character to have even a 50-50 chance of not falling into temptation.

 

[Philip]

It's just such a shame that humans were created with such a weak faith in God that they succumbed to temptation at the first hurdle, leading to untold misery and suffering for millions of descendants.

We don't know it was the first hurdle. It is only the first recorded.

It seems to me that God must have known in advance the amount of suffering that would result from his particular universe design.

He did. And He had a "back-up plan" already inplace.

He would have known the likelihood of man disobeying him and didn't seem to give man the strength of character to have even a 50-50 chance of not falling into temptation.

You can not extract probability from one datum.