God Created Evil

PastorKeith · Aug 14, 2024

I have been a Christian since 2006, and in most of those years, Christians I spoke to would staunchly rebuke the idea that God created evil. They would say evil is simply a result of our human sinful choices. But that's not what the Bible clearly states...

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

Many Christians will use James as a rebuke, where he states God never tempts anyone, but tempting someone to sin, and creating evil are not the same thing. God created everything that exists, evil exists, therefore God created evil... this even fits a logical argument. But why would a holy God create evil? For His Glory.

This is the difficult answer so many people struggle with: God created all there is for His glory, and nothing else.

“Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory” Isaiah. 43:6–7

Some Christians believe He created us because He loves us and wants a relationship with us, but that is not what the Bible teaches. Of course He does love us and wants a relationship with us, but that is not why we were created. All glory be to Him. His understanding is unsearchable (Isaiah 40).

I think we humans try to put our understanding of love and holiness on God, when we are sorely lacking in understanding. What say you?

trophy33 · Aug 14, 2024

I think Christians would not struggle with these questions again and again if they read already existing classical books about the topic, for example Theodicy by G.W.Leibniz, which is a thorough work by a protestant Christian.

We are not the first ones to think about it.

PastorKeith · Aug 14, 2024

trophy33 said:
I think Christians would not struggle with these questions again and again if they read already existing classical books about the topic, for example Theodicy by G.W.Leibniz, which is a thorough work by a protestant Christian.

We are not the first ones to think about it.

Many people, probably most, do dot read at the level Leibniz writes, as such his works will appeal mostly to Apologetics. There's also the reality that the Bible is sufficient, and Christians should not have to rely on any outside works to gain understanding, but let the Holy Spirit guide them in all understanding.

public hermit · Aug 14, 2024

Is evil a creature? I tend to agree with the long, Christian tradition that does not regard evil as having being (i.e., being a creature) but, rather, as a negation of being. Just as sickness is an absence/negation of health, so too evil is a negation/absence of good. All that God created is good, ipso facto, evil is not a creature.

The source of evil is in the will of the intelligent creature (James 1:14). So, although all creatures are good by virtue of being created by a good Creator, evil comes from the will of intelligent creatures who desire and act contrary to the divine intention for them as intelligent creatures w/agency.

If God created evil, then we would be justified in believing that God is evil. But, of course, if God is evil, then God is not worthy of love, trust, worship, etc. To the contrary, God is unmitigated goodness, love, beauty, truth, etc. So, although God allows creatures to choose and do what is evil, God is not evil, and God's goodness and love are revealed in God's willingness and ability to overcome evil with good, e.g. the cross of Christ, transforming those who desire evil into those who desire good, restoring that which is destroyed, etc.

trophy33 · Aug 14, 2024

PastorKeith said:
There's also the reality that the Bible is sufficient, and Christians should not have to rely on any outside works to gain understanding, but let the Holy Spirit guide them in all understanding.

If this were true, there would not be so much confusion and disagreement among Christians. In reality, Bible is quite ambiguous and many topics are not explained as much as needed, there.

Also, the cultural distance of the Biblical authors from us and from our style of thinking is a problem. They did not know rationalism, they did not create consistent systems, they did not use formal logic.

BNR32FAN · Aug 14, 2024

PastorKeith said:
I have been a Christian since 2006, and in most of those years, Christians I spoke to would staunchly rebuke the idea that God created evil. They would say evil is simply a result of our human sinful choices. But that's not what the Bible clearly states...

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

Many Christians will use James as a rebuke, where he states God never tempts anyone, but tempting someone to sin, and creating evil are not the same thing. God created everything that exists, evil exists, therefore God created evil... this even fits a logical argument. But why would a holy God create evil? For His Glory.

This is the difficult answer so many people struggle with: God created all there is for His glory, and nothing else.

“Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory” Isaiah. 43:6–7

Some Christians believe He created us because He loves us and wants a relationship with us, but that is not what the Bible teaches. Of course He does love us and wants a relationship with us, but that is not why we were created. All glory be to Him. His understanding is unsearchable (Isaiah 40).

I think we humans try to put our understanding of love and holiness on God, when we are sorely lacking in understanding. What say you?

I completely disagree. Your quotes from Isaiah are proverbial sayings, they’re not literal messages. For example you quoted Isaiah 45:7 and interpret it as a literal statement but surely you wouldn’t quote verses 6 or 8 and read those as literal statements.

“That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other,”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭45‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If there were literally no one except God then we wouldn’t be having this conversation because we wouldn’t exist.

““Drip down, O heavens, from above, And let the clouds pour down righteousness; Let the earth open up and salvation bear fruit, And righteousness spring up with it. I, the Lord, have created it.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭45‬:‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Surely you would agree that the clouds do not literally drip down righteousness.

Interpreting proverbial sayings requires knowledge of the culture and knowledge of the scriptures. When we compare this statement in Isaiah 45:7 with messages that are not proverbial like James 1:13-17.

“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

James goes into a lot more detail on the subject assuring the audience that sin and temptation do not derive from God. Proverbial saying are often intended to have an element of truth to them but it’s typically an exaggerated element of truth. For example the saying, kids get into everything. The expression isn’t intended that kids literally get into everything, it’s intended to convey the idea that kids get into many things. I’m sure you get the idea.

PastorKeith · Aug 14, 2024

public hermit said:
If God created evil, then we would be justified in believing that God is evil. But, of course, if God is evil, then God is not worthy of love, trust, worship, etc.

God's Word states clearly that He created evil:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

We may do better to just let God say the truth and accept it, rather than try to defend God who needs no defender.

PastorKeith · Aug 14, 2024

trophy33 said:
If this were true, there would not be so much confusion and disagreement among Christians. In reality, Bible is quite ambiguous and many topics are not explained as much as needed, there.

Could it be that most Christians, especially in the western world, never read their Bibles, let alone seek the Holy Spirit's guidance? Could it be most westernized Christians rely more on youtube pastors, in place of reading for themselves?

Ivan Hlavanda · Aug 14, 2024

PastorKeith said:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

God has created beings who have the capacity for evil. Satan was capable of doing evil, otherwise he would not have done it; Adam and Eve were capable of sin, or they would not have sinned.

It is obvious that God created beings that were capable of evil, but when God created them, they were good, and there was no evil in them. But they chose evil and they become evil. But still, God stands above and beyond and over and behind all this activity.

Now let's look at the text in Isaiah 45. The word 'evil' in OT has 7 different nuances. Usually when we use the word evil, we are talking about moral evil - sin. But the scripture also speaks of evil in other categories as well. It speaks of natural disasters such as sickness, floods, earthquakes, which indicate physical evil. When an earthquake happens, we use the word 'bad' or 'evil' with respect to such calamity. Anything that is bad to the Hebrew can be called 'evil'. That is what we have here in Isaiah 45:7.

So this verse means 'I make well-being and I create calamity' something that the ESV Bible translates accurately. The evil in Isaiah 45:7 is not moral evil, but it is that evil that is in direct contrast to well being, peace or prosperity. So what Isaiah is saying here as a spokesman for God is that God brings blessings and He brings curse. He brings good times, He brings bad times. He brings peace, He also brings conflict. He brings well-being, He brings calamity.

It's not that text is saying that God does moral evil or creates moral evil. It is saying however, that God is ultimately the author of all that comes to pass. What this passage is communicating is sovereignty of God over all creation. He will bring harvest, but He will also bring famine. Hope this helps.

public hermit · Aug 14, 2024

PastorKeith said:
God's Word states clearly that He created evil:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

We may do better to just let God say the truth and accept it, rather than try to defend God who needs no defender.

Okay, then according to your understanding, God is evil and unjust. @BNR32FAN has shown your interpretive error in post #6. But literalists always fall down in the same old places, embracing absurdity when it's not necessary. Oh well.

PastorKeith · Aug 14, 2024

BNR32FAN said:
I completely disagree. Your quotes from Isaiah are proverbial sayings, they’re not literal messages. For example you quoted Isaiah 45:7 and interpret it as a literal statement but surely you wouldn’t quote verses 6 or 8 and read those as literal statements.

“That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other,”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭45‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If there were literally no one except God then we wouldn’t be having this conversation because we wouldn’t exist.

““Drip down, O heavens, from above, And let the clouds pour down righteousness; Let the earth open up and salvation bear fruit, And righteousness spring up with it. I, the Lord, have created it.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭45‬:‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Surely you would agree that the clouds do not literally drip down righteousness.

Interpreting proverbial sayings requires knowledge of the culture and knowledge of the scriptures. When we compare this statement in Isaiah 45:7 with messages that are not proverbial like James 1:13-17.

“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

James goes into a lot more detail on the subject assuring the audience that sin and temptation do not derive from God.

I would interpret verses 6, 7, and 8 as God intended them to be interpreted. "Literal" has nothing to do with anything.... read the verses and take away the meaning that is clearly present. In verse 6, what is the meaning? That He is the only GOD that exists, all others are false gods. You should clearly understand that. In verse 7, again there is only ONE clear meaning. Which is shown to be true all over the Bible. In Acts chapter four we read this example:

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Now, was the crucifixion of Jesus Christ an act of Evil? I would say it was the ultimate act of Evil, brought about by the invisible hand of God and guided by Him unto completion. Before the foundations of the Earth, this event was settled.... Pontius Pilate had no say in the matter, Judas had no say in the matter. God brought it to completion for His Glory.

There are countless examples in the Bible of evil acts or events brought about by God for His purpose and He tells us why He does it.... so why then, do we argue against God? This in NO way makes Him an evil God.... his ways are unsearchable, who are we to declare what is evil and what is good?

public hermit · Aug 14, 2024

PastorKeith said:
There are countless examples in the Bible of evil acts or events brought about by God for His purpose and He tells us why He does it.... so why then, do we argue against God?

God is not identical with the Bible. That's your primary error. Do you worship the Bible? Did the Bible create you? Don't mistake the revelation for the One being revealed, and you won't embrace absurdities.

PastorKeith · Aug 14, 2024

public hermit said:
Okay, then according to your understanding, God is evil and unjust. @BNR32FAN has shown your interpretive error in post #6. But literalists always fall down in the same old places, embracing absurdity when it's not necessary. Oh well.

Not according to my understanding, according to what God has clearly revealed in His Holy Word. By what standard do you declare that God is evil and unjust? Was the crucifixion of Jesus Christ evil? If so, who do you think brought about that event? If you say God, do you implicate him as an evil God for doing so?

PastorKeith · Aug 14, 2024

public hermit said:
God is not identical with the Bible. That's your primary error. Do you worship the Bible? Did the Bible create you? Don't mistake the revelation for the One being revealed, and you won't embrace absurdities.

How can anyone, know anything about God without His revelation?????????????? You tell me I embrace absurdities (which is quite offensive) while you say we should know God differently than what He reveals in the Bible??? How then do you know God?

trophy33 · Aug 14, 2024

PastorKeith said:
Could it be that most Christians, especially in the western world, never read their Bibles, let alone seek the Holy Spirit's guidance?

No, most Christians read their Bible or Bibles.

PastorKeith said:
Could it be most westernized Christians rely more on youtube pastors, in place of reading for themselves?

I do not think so.

The main problem, in my opinion, is that, Bible is not systematic, its ambiguous and its theology is not always consistent. And regarding for example the problem of evil, these topics are not explained in the way a modern reader needs.

PastorKeith · Aug 14, 2024

Ivan Hlavanda said:
God has created beings who have the capacity for evil. Satan was capable of doing evil, otherwise he would not have done it; Adam and Eve were capable of sin, or they would not have sinned.

It is obvious that God created beings that were capable of evil, but when God created them, they were good, and there was no evil in them. But they chose evil and they become evil. But still, God stands above and beyond and over and behind all this activity.

Now let's look at the text in Isaiah 45. The word 'evil' in OT has 7 different nuances. Usually when we use the word evil, we are talking about moral evil - sin. But the scripture also speaks of evil in other categories as well. It speaks of natural disasters such as sickness, floods, earthquakes, which indicate physical evil. When an earthquake happens, we use the word 'bad' or 'evil' with respect to such calamity. Anything that is bad to the Hebrew can be called 'evil'. That is what we have here in Isaiah 45:7.

So this verse means 'I make well-being and I create calamity' something that the ESV Bible translates accurately. The evil in Isaiah 45:7 is not moral evil, but it is that evil that is in direct contrast to well being, peace or prosperity. So what Isaiah is saying here as a spokesman for God is that God brings blessings and He brings curse. He brings good times, He brings bad times. He brings peace, He also brings conflict. He brings well-being, He brings calamity.

It's not that text is saying that God does moral evil or creates moral evil. It is saying however, that God is ultimately the author of all that comes to pass. What this passage is communicating is sovereignty of God over all creation. He will bring harvest, but He will also bring famine. Hope this helps.

As I have stated earlier, was the act of Crucifying Jesus an act of evil? If so, who orchestrated that event from the beginning, and made sure it was carried out precisely as it was? The answer is God. So God pre-orchestrated the crucifixion and guided everyone involved to act according to His will, not theirs, in completing this evil, but necessary act. The Bible says his invisible hand controlled everything. All for His purpose and glory. We should not run from this, or try to defend God. He is capable of defending Himself.

public hermit · Aug 14, 2024

PastorKeith said:
Not according to my understanding, according to what God has clearly revealed in His Holy Word. By what standard do you declare that God is evil and unjust? Was the crucifixion of Jesus Christ evil? If so, who do you think brought about that event? If you say God, do you implicate him as an evil God for doing so?

Two agents can be involved in a single event with different motives/intentions. God can desire events that are evil not for the sake of the evil but to show the impotence of evil compared to God's goodness and power. Those who crucified Jesus intended his destruction and were not planning on him rising again but staying dead. God had a very different plan-to use that most evil event to secure the salvation of humanity. Like I said, God brings good out of the evil that intelligent creatures will.

Ivan Hlavanda · Aug 14, 2024

PastorKeith said:
As I have stated earlier, was the act of Crucifying Jesus an act of evil? If so, who orchestrated that event from the beginning, and made sure it was carried out precisely as it was? The answer is God. So God pre-orchestrated the crucifixion and guided everyone involved to act according to His will, not theirs, in completing this evil, but necessary act. The Bible says his invisible hand controlled everything. All for His purpose and glory. We should not run from this, or try to defend God. He is capable of defending Himself.

God does not create moral evil. You misunderstand what Isaiah 45:7 means, which I already explained to you.

PastorKeith · Aug 14, 2024

Ivan Hlavanda said:
God does not create moral evil. You misunderstand what Isaiah 45:7 means, which I already explained to you.

You did not address my crucifixion argument. Was the crucifixion a MORAL evil: YES.
Who created and planned that event? God.
Who carried out that event? The invisible hand of God.

public hermit · Aug 14, 2024

PastorKeith said:
How can anyone, know anything about God without His revelation?????????????? You tell me I embrace absurdities (which is quite offensive) while you say we should know God differently than what He reveals in the Bible??? How then do you knhumanity.

No one can know God who does not love, so it takes more than reading scriptural revelation. It takes the revelation of the incarnation, which reveals God's love for the world, and it takes the indwelling Spirit in order to interpret scripture according to the revelation of God and God's love in Jesus Chrst. Christ is the interpretive key to scripture. You can't just assume everything stated in scripture is literally true about God.

God Created Evil

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

social troglodyte

Well-Known Member

He’s a Way of life

Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

social troglodyte

Active Member

social troglodyte

Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

social troglodyte

Well-Known Member

Active Member

social troglodyte

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency