God cannot be all-mighty

Lilly of the Valley · May 26, 2006

God has already showed us events that are going to occur in the future. Does the mean He made people do the actions that he knew for the mere fact of being God? No.

Being almighty doesn't mean you have to control people. Espeically if in your powerfullness you CHOOSE and WANTED people to choose for themselves. God set it up from the start for man to choose to obey Him...

The problem is you equate being almighty to controling folks. People can have a lot of power and in their power give people freedom.

Telephone · May 27, 2006

elman said:
There is where your example breaks down. An inerrant omniscient diety would not know person x was going to cho[o]se B unless B is what he was going to cho[o]se.

LOL !

Of course!

elman said:
An omniscient diety with foreknowledge does not negate free will

Your poorly thought out refutation of my original hypothetical situation adds zero to the conversation.

Telephone · May 27, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
God set it up from the start for man to choose to obey Him...

Priceless !

Lilly of the Valley said:
The problem is you equate being almighty to controling folks.

No, no one has said this, please read the thread.

Mortensen · May 27, 2006

God isn't allmighty if he can't create a stone that is heavier than he can lift

Lilly of the Valley · May 27, 2006

Who is to say that He can't, but that He simply chooses not to.

Lilly of the Valley · May 27, 2006

Telephone said:
Priceless !

No, no one has said this, please read the thread.

Has it not been stated that if God doesn't choose for us or decide for us, but we choose, then He isn't almighty?

Telephone · May 27, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
Has it not been stated that if God doesn't choose for us or decide for us, but we choose, then He isn't almighty?

Certainly not by me.

Lilly of the Valley · May 27, 2006

Telephone said:
Certainly not by me.

Yes, by the person who created the thread. Perhaps not in those exact words, but that is bascially the point.

Telephone · May 27, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
Yes, by the person who created the thread. Perhaps not in those exact words, but that is bascially the point.

I read the point as being - omniscience and free will are not compatible.

Perhaps we should let the original poster clarify his main point.

Mortensen · May 27, 2006

My main point is what we have discussed. That if God know the future, free will is just an illution.

Who is to say that He can't, but that He simply chooses not to.

But if he did, we wouldn't be able to lift it...

Catholicism · May 27, 2006

Mortensen said:
God isn't allmighty if he can't create a stone that is heavier than he can lift

Of course He can't. If He could it would just be meaningless jargon. To say that God can do things which imply contradiction is to denote omnipotence to complete nonsense.

Catholicism · May 27, 2006

Also, as I said in the beginning, "Your argument presupposes that God is not eternal." If your argument does presuppose that God is eternal then your argument is not against "free-will and knowledge of the future," but rather "free-will and knowledge of the present."

Telephone · May 27, 2006

Catholicism said:
Of course He can't. If He could it would just be meaningless jargon. To say that God can do things which imply contradiction is to denote omnipotence to complete nonsense.

Yeah!

God cannot make a round square or a square circle, this is simply meaningless jargon as pointed out, god can only do logical things, things which are not contradictory or impossible, you know, like create the universe, exist indefinitely, create time and morality, you know what I mean, just normal everyday stuff.

Catholicism · May 27, 2006

Telephone said:
Yeah!

God cannot make a round square or a square circle, this is simply meaningless jargon as pointed out, god can only do logical things, things which are not contradictory or impossible, you know, like create the universe, exist indefinitely, create time and morality, you know what I mean, just normal everyday stuff.

Glad you get it!!! Though I sented a tad bit of sarcasm.

P.S. I deny God created morality.

Telephone · May 27, 2006

Catholicism said:
Glad you get it!!! Though I sented a tad bit of sarcasm.

Me ! sarcasm ! I would never dream of such a thing !

Catholicism said:
P.S. I deny God created morality.

Scandalous ! Go straight to confessional.

JonF · May 27, 2006

Telephone said:
I think you may have already state this !

yes I did, and you dismissed it.

Are you so sure !?

Free will may be limited by the fact that there is only a single path or single option to take, no other exists.

yes I am. Your scenario is still a causal claim. God’s knowledge causes “only a single path or single option to take” and
“only a single path or single option to take” eliminates free will.

Telephone said:
I have repeatedly pointed out that I do not believe god's foreknowledge causes us to perform an action, please take some time to read this thread in detail.

Yes you have, and this is the problem with your post. Up to this point I have been assuming by free will you mean something like. Free will: The root cause of an action by a person is their will. So if you are going to make a claim about whether or not free will exists you need to make a claim about cause. You say none of your arguments have done this. I’ve tried to fix your arguments for you, but you reject the necessary premises I added to make them valid. So why don’t you present your own rigorous valid (or even cogent) argument.

My point is that omniscience undermines the notion of true free will.

no this is your conclusion which I have yet to see you actually support. Your arguments go like this: God has knowledge the actaul world, knowledge about the actaul world implies truth about the actaul world, then from this your next step isn't clear. You seem to just assume that this means there isn't free will.

I often become frustrated at superstitious folk's recourse to semantics and bizzare logic tricks in an attempt to defend bronze age deity worship, this frustration was perhaps unfairly aimed at you, sorry about that !

You know this is rather humorous. I call you on posting Ad Hominems, and how do you respond? By apologizing with another ad Hominem. The great irony in this is that your ad Hominem is fallacious.

Lilly of the Valley · May 27, 2006

Mortensen said:
My main point is what we have discussed. That if God know the future, free will is just an illution.

But if he did, we wouldn't be able to lift it...

OKay, the best way to illustrate is an example:

A girl eats an apple. Her father knows she will eat the apple due to her own desires. Was her freewill taken?

Catholicism · May 27, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
OKay, the best way to illustrate is an example:

A girl eats an apple. Her father knows she will eat the apple due to her own desires. Was her freewill taken?

A better illustration would be, "a father sees his daughter eating an apple, was her free-will taken?"

Mortensen · May 27, 2006

Im starting to see both sides here and had concluded way back that there is no solution. You have several options infront of you. You can choose all of them, but the point is that YOU DONT. The free will is still there, you conclude to yourself what is the best choice at that time, and to the choice. The choice isn't taken away just because someone know what you are going to choose. You can say that the other choices cannot be chosen bacuse of gods knowledge, but then again, why choose them? Thats the point, you don't choose them.

Also, as I said in the beginning, "Your argument presupposes that God is not eternal." If your argument does presuppose that God is eternal then your argument is not against "free-will and knowledge of the future," but rather "free-will and knowledge of the present."

Relax! I was just kidding. Didn't you see the tounge smily at the end?

Lilly of the Valley · May 27, 2006

Well, actually I think knows works better because God doesn't just see what we do, He knows it. He knows everything.

God cannot be all-mighty

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