God and Time: Does God exist in all points in time?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I would say we do have a way of knowing how old the Earth is. Both the Bible and Science confirm the Earth to be about 6,000 years old approximately. Luke 3 is a genealogy of Christ's line from Mary to Adam. It would be pointless to give us a genealogy like this if there were gaps in it. It is showing that Jesus is descendant of Adam. If there is a missing link in the chain, it would destroy that. I know this is not important to many of us Gentiles, but to a Jew, tracing one's family history means a lot. So they were meticulous record keepers in this regard. Also, God wants us to know that Jesus is truly of Adam.

There are some unanswered questions about the earth being billions of years old (if we believe the carbon dating method), and the Bible seeming to say that it was created 6,000 years ago. Seeing that Bible was never designed as a science textbook, there are some big gaps in the narrative that could suggest that a big time gap occurred between the formation of the universe and the appearance of Adam. After all, time is only measured in our world by the rotation of the earth and the orbit of the earth around the sun, so before measurement, the creation of the universe could not be measured in hours, days, or years, because there was no standard of measurement. The Bible talks about days, so our finite minds could comprehend it. God could take as much time as He liked to create the universe; no one would be going anywhere, would they? No trains to catch, no timetable to keep. The passage of time is only meaningful for us because we are measuring it by hours, days, weeks, months and years. We have a routine, and it is worked out in a timetable. God doesn't have those things so the measurement of time means nothing to Him. So He could take several quadrillion years to create the universe. Who's to worry, and who's to say He can't?

As I said before, we have to understand the Jewish method of genealogy when describing the generations before Abraham. If the method involved cultural groups, then putting a limit of 6,000 years would not be feasible. Especially when the evidence shows that humans migrated to North American 20,000 years ago. So the Tower of Babel had to have been constructed more than 20,000 years ago, because at that time everyone in the world lived in the Middle East and spoke the same language. It was only when the languages were divided that people started migrate to other areas of the world. It is interesting that the traditional Chinese are a very ancient culture and because there has been no mix of cultures within it (up until modern times), the culture is directly descended from that group who suddenly got the Chinese language at the Tower of Babel and migrated to what we now know as China. I read a fascinating book about the traditional Chinese language in which the pictures depicted significant Genesis events. It seems that the Chinese culture is more than 6,000 years old - perhaps more than 20,000 years.

So, we can't discount [true] science in terms of the age of the universe, and the migration of people around the world. I don't believe in evolution because it is not a true science, but just a bunch of guesswork theories. But we have substantive evidence that the earth is more than 6,000 years old, and that human being inhabited the earth more than 20,000 years ago. And that was after the Flood. Who knows how long people inhabited the earth between Adam and the Flood?

You see, the Bible is not a complete scientific or historical record, but what it does say is absolutely true. We can only fill in some of the gaps through the evidence that we have through scientific research and discovery.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How can God experience our future if we were not there living it with Him?

Great question.

Yes, it is a good question, and I believe it is the "Achilles' heel" to the concept of time that you propose, my friend. Without an explanation, it renders people's idea of God existing in timelessness as being non-sensical. Again, I am not saying GOD does not have the power to be this way in our universe, but I just do not think He has chosen to exercise this particular power.

I think we are still on that time line playing the story live.
So i would have to conclude that we will eventually pop out of our time bound reality and somehow end up with God in eternity / timelessness.

So this reality is duplicated in God's timeless dimension and we are just reliving what God has already experienced in His own time dimension (that is timeless), right?

If not, then how could God experience our future if it has not happened yet for us?

Also, if we are in a timeless dimension with God in the future, this means we can travel back in time at any time we choose. But if we did so, how do we stop from altering the time line? The Bible talks about how the Earth (this Earth) will pass away and there will be a New Earth. If this Old Earth will pass away, how can we go back and relive moments there if it is gone? It makes no sense.

From God's point of view we have always been there, in what is to us the future, when the future is always a reality to God.

I am not denying God's Omniscience. I believe GOD knows every little detail in life that is going to happen in the future. He knows how many squirrels there will be on the planet on March 7th, 2019. He knows how many hairs each of them will have that particular day, too. Nothing is by accident. God knows it all and He is sovereign over His creation (even amongst free willed beings).

But I do not believe GOD is existing in some future time line that is outside our reality.

Yeah, it's a philosophical case for predestination i think you want to make.
But i don't think full predestination is compatible with Love.
Full predestination is programming, whereas Love is a choice of some sorts.
God can program a creature to love Him, but that would be God loving Himself by means of running his program in a creature.
Robot love, basically, which i don't believe to be real conscious Love.
So while i think it's a strong argument for predestination and even programming, i don't believe it.

Yeah, I am not a Calvinist; I believe in Prevenient Grace. That Christ (GOD) draws us and it is up to our own free will to decide if we want to accept Christ or not. When I say God is sovereign, there are things that He makes to happen as a part of His greater plan for good (even amongst free willed beings). An example of this would be the story of Joseph, whereby what his brothers intended as evil against him, God intended it for good in the end. In other words, God was able to take a horrible situation and turn it around for his good.

Other problem i.m.o. is that when you consider God is never changing, it implies stasis, which would make the whole thing of a time bound reality a bit idle...

I believe that when the Bible talks about how GOD does not change, this in regards to His moral and good character. I do not believe that portion of Scripture is talking about how GOD cannot do things differently like the Incarnation, the establishment of the New Covenant (with new commands), etc.

Jesus is the Eternal Living Word. He has always existed as the second person of the Godhead or the Trinity. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever in regards to His essence in being spirit and in His good and moral and loving character. Jesus. He is the way, the truth, and the life. For by His death, and by His resurrection it shined forth salvation to all men for all time. But how that time works should be taken from Scripture, and not by what we have learned from the philosophies of men like Plato, Aristotle, or time travel fiction, etc.

In any event, whether you agree or disagree, may the Lord Jesus Christ's love be upon you and your family this fine day.

 

[Hieronymus]

Yes, it is a good question, and I believe it is the achilles heel to the concept of time that you propose, my friend. Without an explanation, it renders people's idea of God existing in timelessness as being non-sensical. Again, I am not saying GOD does not have the power to be this way in our universe, but I just do not think He has chosen to exercise this particular power.

Again, i really don't know, but indeed, assuming God lives beyond time implies the outcome is already a reality, and we're just playing our part for his pleasure.

But perhaps it's like the future is 'crystallizing' in that ultimate future while we're living it live here and now caught in the procession of time, which He created.

I mean, there's a Plan, a beginning and an end to the story, isn't there?
There's a goal according to God's Will.
But this all implies time too...
A sequence of events.

So the question remains:
Does God experience time?
And does He use it to get things done?
Things that would be new to Him.

So this reality is duplicated in God's timeless dimension and we are just reliving what God has already experienced in His own time, right?

Ah, but i think you can't really say 'already has experienced' or 'in His own time' when He is timeless.
You could say 'He is experiencing it always' or something similar, when speaking about a timeless God.

But it's unfathomable anyway..
The whole stasis thing this implies i.m.o. sounds a bit, hmmm... dead, inanimate.
And it makes out dynamic reality seem quite idle i.m.o.

If not, then how could God experience our future if it has not happened yet for us?

Hmmm... Maybe He just wants us to experience it too, by the Way that's leading to it?

I am not denying God's Omniscience. I believe GOD knows every little detail in life that is going to happen in the future. He knows how many squirrels there will be on the planet on March 7th, 2019. He knows how many hairs each of them will have that particular day, too. Nothing is by accident. God knows it all and He is sovereign over His creation (even amongst free willed beings).

That's not what i believe though.
It could be true, but i believe the steps relevant to Him are determined, but not every detail.
I believe God influences things too if necessary, to ensure the determined outcome.

But I do not believe GOD is existing in some future time line that is outside our reality.



Yeah, I am not a Calvinist; I believe in Prevenient Grace. That Christ (GOD) draws us and it is up to our own free will to decide if we want to accept Christ or not. When I say God is sovereign, there are things that He makes to happen as a part of His greater plan for good (even amongst free willed beings). An example of this would be the story of Joseph, whereby what his brothers intended as evil against him, God intended it for good in the end. In other words, God was able to take a horrible situation and turn it around for his good.



I believe that when the Bible talks about how GOD does not change, this in regards to His moral and good character. I do not believe that portion of Scripture is talking about how GOD cannot do things differently like the Incarnation, the establishment of the New Covenant (with new commands), etc.

Jesus is the Eternal Living Word. He has always existed as the second person of the Godhead or the Trinity. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever in regards to His essence in being spirit and in His good and moral and loving character. Jesus. He is the way, the truth, and the life. For by His death, and by His resurrection it shined forth salvation to all men for all time. But how that time works should be taken from Scripture, and not by what we have learned from the philosophies of men like Plato, Aristotle, or time travel fiction, etc.

Well Amen to that, and again, i very much look forward to the day that all will be clearly visible and tangible, and all will make sense.
Take me Home, LORD !

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There are some unanswered questions about the earth being billions of years old (if we believe the carbon dating method), and the Bible seeming to say that it was created 6,000 years ago. Seeing that Bible was never designed as a science textbook, there are some big gaps in the narrative that could suggest that a big time gap occurred between the formation of the universe and the appearance of Adam. After all, time is only measured in our world by the rotation of the earth and the orbit of the earth around the sun, so before measurement, the creation of the universe could not be measured in hours, days, or years, because there was no standard of measurement.

While the Bible is not a Science book, it does accurately record Science. In fact, besides the revelation of Jesus Christ by our repentance towards Him, it is also by the many scientific evidences that back up God's Word that lets us know that His Word is divine in origin.

You can check out the various different evidences for God's Word being divine in origin here:

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

The Bible talks about days, so our finite minds could comprehend it.

In the 6 day creation, the days are 24 hour days because he mentions an evening and a morning attached to that day.

God could take as much time as He liked to create the universe; no one would be going anywhere, would they? No trains to catch, no timetable to keep. The passage of time is only meaningful for us because we are measuring it by hours, days, weeks, months and years. We have a routine, and it is worked out in a timetable. God doesn't have those things so the measurement of time means nothing to Him.

No. God records in His Word how there are days, weeks, and years, etc. So God created these things. He created the sun, moon, and change of seasons to mark these times that He established.

So He could take several quadrillion years to create the universe. Who's to worry, and who's to say He can't?

His Word says that He didn't take that long to do it. Just read and believe Genesis 1 plainly and do not seek to cram outside secular Science into what the Bible says, friend.

As I said before, we have to understand the Jewish method of genealogy when describing the generations before Abraham. If the method involved cultural groups, then putting a limit of 6,000 years would not be feasible. Especially when the evidence shows that humans migrated to North American 20,000 years ago. So the Tower of Babel had to have been constructed more than 20,000 years ago, because at that time everyone in the world lived in the Middle East and spoke the same language. It was only when the languages were divided that people started migrate to other areas of the world.

That's just you and or some other people saying that. I prefer to trust God's Word in what it says instead, brother.

It is interesting that the traditional Chinese are a very ancient culture and because there has been no mix of cultures within it (up until modern times), the culture is directly descended from that group who suddenly got the Chinese language at the Tower of Babel and migrated to what we now know as China. I read a fascinating book about the traditional Chinese language in which the pictures depicted significant Genesis events. It seems that the Chinese culture is more than 6,000 years old - perhaps more than 20,000 years.

Within the source link above on the different evidences for God's Word, I have provided a video on how the Chinese language originated from Genesis.

So, we can't discount [true] science in terms of the age of the universe, and the migration of people around the world. I don't believe in evolution because it is not a true science, but just a bunch of guesswork theories. But we have substantive evidence that the earth is more than 6,000 years old, and that human being inhabited the earth more than 20,000 years ago. And that was after the Flood. Who knows how long people inhabited the earth between Adam and the Flood? You see, the Bible is not a complete scientific or historical record, but what it does say is absolutely true. We can only fill in some of the gaps through the evidence that we have through scientific research and discovery.

I disagree. Not only does the Bible teach a Young Earth, but there are tons of evidences for a Young Earth, too.

Here are 101 evidences for a young Earth:

Age of the earth - creation.com

As for God and time:

You said there is no point for God in regards to time.
Are you saying God exists simultaneously in the past, present, and future?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again, i really don't know, but indeed, assuming God lives beyond time implies the outcome is already a reality, and we're just playing our part for his pleasure.

But perhaps it's like the future is 'crystallizing' in that ultimate future while we're living it live here and now caught in the procession of time, which He created.

I mean, there's a Plan, a beginning and an end to the story, isn't there?
There's a goal according to God's Will.
But this all implies time too...
A sequence of events.

So the question remains:
Does God experience time?
And does He use it to get things done?
Things that would be new to Him.
Ah, but i think you can't really say 'already has experienced' or 'in His own time' when He is timeless.
You could say 'He is experiencing it always' or something similar, when speaking about a timeless God.

But it's unfathomable anyway..
The whole stasis thing this implies i.m.o. sounds a bit, hmmm... dead, inanimate.
And it makes out dynamic reality seem quite idle i.m.o.

Hmmm... Maybe He just wants us to experience it too, by the Way that's leading to it?


That's not what i believe though.
It could be true, but i believe the steps relevant to Him are determined, but not every detail.
I believe God influences things too if necessary, to ensure the determined outcome.Well Amen to that, and again, i very much look forward to the day that all will be clearly visible and tangible, and all will make sense.
Take me Home, LORD !

This doesn't really resolve the problems I presented.
Also, to say that God is timeless suggests that He is not constrained by time in any way. Meaning, that even his experience of time of our reality is not real or does not apply to Him. Meaning, God does not experience 5 seconds of the passage of time in our reality. Timeless suggests that God is going back and forth through all points in time. Again, this a problem. Is God reliving past events that are unchangeable? Is God re-experiencing History now as we speak? Is God reliving past events He has already done over and over and over and over again.
The problems are numerous with this kind of belief.
You have to just shrug your shoulders and say.... "I don't know" in order to believe it. Who cares about the logic of it. Who cares if there is no definitive set of passages explaining this.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

While the Bible is not a Science book, it does accurately record Science. In fact, besides the revelation of Jesus Christ by our repentance towards Him, it is also by the many scientific evidences that back up God's Word that lets us know that His Word is divine in origin.

You can check out the various different evidences for God's Word being divine in origin here:

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God



In the 6 day creation, the days are 24 hour days because he mentions an evening and a morning attached to that day.



No. God records in His Word how there are days, weeks, and years, etc. So God created these things. He created the sun, moon, and change of seasons to mark these times that He established.



His Word says that He didn't take that long to do it. Just read and believe Genesis 1 plainly and do not seek to cram outside secular Science into what the Bible says, friend.



That's just you and or some other people saying that. I prefer to trust God's Word in what it says instead, brother.



I provided a source link I provided above on the different evidences for God's Word, I have provided a video on how we can see how the Chinese language originated from Genesis.



I disagree. Not only does the Bible teach a Young Earth, but there are tons of evidences for a Young Earth, too.

Here are 101 evidences for a young Earth:

Age of the earth - creation.com

As for God and time:

You said there is no point for God in regards to time.
Are you saying God exists simultaneously in the past, present, and future?

I'm not opposed to what you are saying, and we have to put the Bible first if we are to be people of the Spirit and not of the flesh. Science depends on the senses for its "truth" and where there is disagreement between science and the Bible, we have to believe the Bible even where it doesn't seem to make sense to a scientific mind which is influenced by the pagan Greek philosopher Aristotle, who maintained that everything that is true has to be supported by empirical evidence.

 

[Hieronymus]

This doesn't really resolve the problems I presented.

This was as close as i could get:
"Maybe He just wants us to experience it too, by the Way that's leading to it?"
I can't solve this problem, if it is a problem.

Also, to say that God is timeless suggests that He is not constrained by time in any way. Meaning, that even his experience of time of our reality is not real or does not apply to Him. Meaning, God does not experience 5 seconds of the passage of time in our reality. Timeless suggests that God is going back and forth through all points in time.

Or it means He's on every point in time simultaneously.

Again, this a problem. Is God reliving past events that are unchangeable? Is God re-experiencing History now as we speak?

You describe it as bits of film playing and then rewinding it or fast forwarding it.
I imagine it more like a simultaneous thing.
But are we even capable of painting a picture in our minds of what it would be like?
Maybe a rough sketch at best, which probably doesn't cover it either..

Is God reliving past events He has already done over and over and over and over again.

That sounds like a nightmare...

The problems are numerous with this kind of belief.
You have to just shrug your shoulders and say.... "I don't know" in order to believe it. Who cares about the logic of it. Who cares if there is no definitive set of passages explaining this.

Well indeed who cares?
It's interesting to play with these thoughts sometimes.

Hey, but maybe God started this timeline and decided to be a part of it, and (perhaps partially) 'breaking away' from timelessness to meet a goal, like producing and selecting beings for mutual Love, and after that taking his selection back to his timeless realm.
This is how some speak of "eternity past" and "future eternity".

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This was as close as i could get:
"Maybe He just wants us to experience it too, by the Way that's leading to it?"
I can't solve this problem, if it is a problem.Or it means He's on every point in time simultaneously. You describe it as bits of film playing and then rewinding it or fast forwarding it.
I imagine it more like a simultaneous thing.
But are we even capable of painting a picture in our minds of what it would be like?
Maybe a rough sketch at best, which probably doesn't cover it either..
That sounds like a nightmare... Well indeed who cares?
It's interesting to play with these thoughts sometimes.

Hey, but maybe God started this timeline and decided to be a part of it, and (perhaps partially) 'breaking away' from timelessness to meet a goal, like producing and selecting beings for mutual Love, and after that taking his selection back to his timeless realm.
This is how some speak of "eternity past" and "future eternity".

If God exists at all points of time, He could not exist and He could not relate to us in any way. The past only exists in our memory (and in God's), and the future has not been created yet. The present is the only reality and by the time I finish typing this, my act of typing will be in the past. So the only reality is Now. That is one of the reasons why author of Hebrews said, "Now, if you hear His voice...etc."

 

[Hieronymus]

If God exists at all points of time, He could not exist and He could not relate to us in any way. The past only exists in our memory (and in God's), and the future has not been created yet. The present is the only reality and by the time I finish typing this, my act of typing will be in the past. So the only reality is Now. That is one of the reasons why author of Hebrews said, "Now, if you hear His voice...etc."

This is reasoning from the human time bound perspective only i.m.o.
Our reality is now.
But God is, was and cometh.
But i don't know, maybe you're right.
It depends on if you want to make God a "slave of time" so to speak, or if you believe time is a part of our reality, which is God's creation, and therefore God exists beyond time.
In Genesis 1 time starts "in the beginning".
And since God is God, i see no reason He can not enter time bound reality and experience it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This is reasoning from the human time bound perspective only i.m.o.
Our reality is now.
But God is, was and cometh.
But i don't know, maybe you're right.
It depends on if you want to make God a "slave of time" so to speak, or if you believe time is a part of our reality, which is God's creation, and therefore God exists beyond time.
In Genesis 1 time starts "in the beginning".
And since God is God, i see no reason He can not enter time bound reality and experience it.

Our concept of time is the measurement of it. We think in time of hours, days, weeks, months, and years. The foundation of our measurement is the rotation of the earth (days); the orbit of the earth around the sun (years). If we were on Mars, days may be relatively the same, but the years would be longer, so the measurement of time would be different. If we were on Pluto, a year might take more than a lifetime! And if we were sitting out in deep space and didn't have a clock, how do we measure time there? Are we in a timeless place where there is no past present or future? Or does "time" become meaningless because we have no way of measuring it? But we still have to move around the space-ship and still go about our routine duties. We have to decide when it is night or day, and so it may have to be night when we get tired and sleepy, and mealtimes happen when we get hungry; so our "measurement" of time is based on a different standard.

So, if God lives in a place called Heaven which is beyond our universe, or in a "world" parallel to our universe, wouldn't He be living in an environment similar to someone in space without any way to measure time, except that time will end when the spaceman dies, but with God time will never end.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm not opposed to what you are saying, and we have to put the Bible first if we are to be people of the Spirit and not of the flesh. Science depends on the senses for its "truth" and where there is disagreement between science and the Bible, we have to believe the Bible even where it doesn't seem to make sense to a scientific mind which is influenced by the pagan Greek philosopher Aristotle, who maintained that everything that is true has to be supported by empirical evidence.

Yes, to a degree this is true. Before men traveled around the globe, they could have thought the Earth was flat. But we know now that both Science and the Bible proves without a doubt that the Earth is round and not flat. So yes, it cannot be just Science alone. We do have to take it by a healthy balance of the two. Science should not conflict with God's Word, but it should support it. In fact, there are many scientific evidences found in the Bible. We have to use logic as a part of our thinking in our theology, though. Many times, people just believe things that do not make any sense. Yes, there are things like miracles or not understanding how God could exist forever from Eternity's Past. These require faith and is not entirely based upon pure logic (without faith). But when it comes to mechanisms like time, it should line up with what we see in Scripture. I hear people talk about a version of time that does not exactly exist in the Scriptures. I hear people talk about long gaps of time in the Bible where there is none. I see people trying to make a 24 hour day in Genesis into a long period of time when it says it is the kind of day that has an evening and morning.

 

[RDKirk]

I'm not opposed to what you are saying, and we have to put the Bible first if we are to be people of the Spirit and not of the flesh. Science depends on the senses for its "truth" and where there is disagreement between science and the Bible, we have to believe the Bible even where it doesn't seem to make sense to a scientific mind which is influenced by the pagan Greek philosopher Aristotle, who maintained that everything that is true has to be supported by empirical evidence.

Mmm, I don't think that was Aristotle's position. He had an opinion was that any idiot can believe his own eyes, but it took an intelligent man to come to a conclusion based on logic--and his most important conclusions were not empirical (and not always right). He was not above coming to conclusions based on nothing but presumptive principles.

 

[RDKirk]

Our concept of time is the measurement of it. We think in time of hours, days, weeks, months, and years. The foundation of our measurement is the rotation of the earth (days); the orbit of the earth around the sun (years). If we were on Mars, days may be relatively the same, but the years would be longer, so the measurement of time would be different. If we were on Pluto, a year might take more than a lifetime! And if we were sitting out in deep space and didn't have a clock, how do we measure time there? Are we in a timeless place where there is no past present or future? Or does "time" become meaningless because we have no way of measuring it? But we still have to move around the space-ship and still go about our routine duties. We have to decide when it is night or day, and so it may have to be night when we get tired and sleepy, and mealtimes happen when we get hungry; so our "measurement" of time is based on a different standard.

Atomic clocks. Our concept of time is the measurement of the intervals between physical events. These days, the the measure is of the interval of the oscillation of electromagnetic radiation at the subatomic level. But all time measurements are measurements of the intervals between physical events--they always have been.

And that is all time is. Without the change of physical events, there is nothing separate from physical entities that is "time." Time is a property of the physical realm.

So, if God lives in a place called Heaven which is beyond our universe, or in a "world" parallel to our universe, wouldn't He be living in an environment similar to someone in space without any way to measure time, except that time will end when the spaceman dies, but with God time will never end.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Atomic clocks. Our concept of time is the measurement of the intervals between physical events. These days, the the measure is of the interval of the oscillation of electromagnetic radiation at the subatomic level. But all time measurements are measurements of the intervals between physical events--they always have been.

And that is all time is. Without the change of physical events, there is nothing separate from physical entities that is "time." Time is a property of the physical realm.

It is more correct to say that the measurement of time is the property of the physical realm. I agree that time does not exist in eternity, but past, present, and future are absolutes and unchangeable and exist in eternity just the same as they exist in the physical realm. As I keep saying, God cannot exist if the past, present, and future were all the same in Heaven. The book of Revelation shows that there is a succession of events in Heaven, and that is outside of our physical realm, and Heaven is where the throne of God is. Unless the God on the throne in Heaven is just a cardboard replica and the real God is someone in some science fantasy dimension where past, present and future are all jumbled up.

 

[RDKirk]

It is more correct to say that the measurement of time is the property of the physical realm. I agree that time does not exist in eternity, but past, present, and future are absolutes and unchangeable and exist in eternity just the same as they exist in the physical realm. As I keep saying, God cannot exist if the past, present, and future were all the same in Heaven. The book of Revelation shows that there is a succession of events in Heaven, and that is outside of our physical realm, and Heaven is where the throne of God is. Unless the God on the throne in Heaven is just a cardboard replica and the real God is someone in some science fantasy dimension where past, present and future are all jumbled up.

Oh, wait. You've switched to a different subject. You're suddenly talking about time in heaven.

Oh, sure there is time in heaven. Revelation makes that clear.

But we weren't talking about time in heaven. Heaven is just another part of creation. Of course there is time in heaven because as a product of creation there is "a time before which it was not."

We're talking about time for God outside of His creation. We're talking about when nothing existed but God, before Genesis 1:1.

What is "past, present, and future" in a dimension that nothing exists but God? God was certainly somewhere before He created heaven and earth.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oh, wait. You've switched to a different subject. You're suddenly talking about time in heaven.

Oh, sure there is time in heaven. Revelation makes that clear.

But we weren't talking about time in heaven. Heaven is just another part of creation. Of course there is time in heaven because as a product of creation there is "a time before which it was not."

We're talking about time for God outside of His creation. We're talking about when nothing existed but God, before Genesis 1:1.

What is "past, present, and future" in a dimension that nothing exists but God? God was certainly somewhere before He created heaven and earth.

God created the heavens and the earth. Get your quotes right.

Heaven was not created. It is where God resides and where His throne is. It is a place outside the created universe. The heavens as part of the creation is the universe.

 

[redleghunter]

At which point in time in the future does his saints not exist?
There is a difference between what will happen vs. the idea that there is some kind of future dimension of time that is existence now.

In the beginning (Time) God (uncreated Creator) created the Heavens (Space) and the Earth (Matter).

It’s all His Creation. What possibly could limit God?

 

[SkyWriting]

I don't believe God is into trickery like that. I think the creation is very real and it is physical.

"Physical" is just a collection of energy. Every particle is actually just energy.
If God changes reality, then you wouldn't know unless God wanted you to.

 

[RDKirk]

God created the heavens and the earth. Get your quotes right.

Heaven was not created. It is where God resides and where His throne is. It is a place outside the created universe. The heavens as part of the creation is the universe.

Are you saying that heaven as a "place" predates the existence of God? Or that heaven is uncreated, like the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are uncreated?

 

[ToBeLoved]

This doesn't really resolve the problems I presented.
Also, to say that God is timeless suggests that He is not constrained by time in any way. Meaning, that even his experience of time of our reality is not real or does not apply to Him. Meaning, God does not experience 5 seconds of the passage of time in our reality. Timeless suggests that God is going back and forth through all points in time. Again, this a problem. Is God reliving past events that are unchangeable? Is God re-experiencing History now as we speak? Is God reliving past events He has already done over and over and over and over again.
The problems are numerous with this kind of belief.
You have to just shrug your shoulders and say.... "I don't know" in order to believe it. Who cares about the logic of it. Who cares if there is no definitive set of passages explaining this.

Saying that God is timeless and not held to time, does not mean that when God chose to interact with mankind that there was not an element of time in place so mankind could understand it. We are under the construct of time so it is to give US that construct, not that God needed it.