cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
I'm sorry for this long post and hope I was able to address some of your thoughtful comments. I just added this 3 minute video to summarize everything I said.


This video does not pertain to [me] however. Let me explain...

Let's just say that everything this guy says is 100% correct. Okay.

The false dilemma still stands. The ones whom are not chosen/selected/picked are left to dwell in a place of torture - as exclaimed by the many Verses in the Bible. Again, God has the ability to create any environment. He could have created an environment where all later gets fused into one singular realm; and all the unselected, that discontinue in that realm, simply cease to exist. Or, the remaining realm could be the same realm in which we reside now. Or, other other other other other other other....


Remember, I'm not giving my own opinion. I'm merely regurgitating Scripture. The Bible goes out of it's way to describe the 'other plain of perpetual existence.' And furthermore, let's again assume everything this guys says is still 100% correct. He states we choose not to worship Him. Does an almighty being require worship, or else? See below....

However, this video does not touch on one of my main points. Belief is not a choice, and yet, it seems the Bible states in places, that without belief, you cannot be saved. See the contradiction here?

I leave you to my prior response now :)
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
God decided to create ONE destination for anyone whom does not abide by His rules. And this one destination is a place of torture.
I explained hell before but you insist that you understand the Bible better than other people. Where does the Bible say that God created hell / lake of fire?

God's created 'false dilemma' is as follows...

The ones He selects as 'saved' continue on into eternal bliss. The ones He selects or deems as 'unsaved' are sent to torture. The unsaved could merely cease existence, be placed into another realm - (not of torture), etc... The fact that the Bible goes out of it's way to clarify, in several passages, that many will burn, means God has designated a singular place of 'extreme never ending punishment'. God decided to create this specific scenario. It does not abide by the LoL. Because again, God's decided destination for all the unsaved could merely be not with Him. But God decided these people must burn specifically. If you watch the 6 minute video from this perspective, you might begin to see that God goes out of His way to assure anyone whom does not abide by His given rules, are to writhe in 'absolute pain' for eternity. And yet, He claims 'love'?? This appears to be a contradictory set of statements....
I explained before that I didn't believe this kind of theology. If this is the theology you want to discuss, you may choose to contribute in the thread I suggested in my last message, where Reformed believers are discussing faith.

I haven't read the rest of your message, yet. If it all against Calvinist / Reformed / Baptist theology, I will not be able to defend this type of theology bec I don't believe in it and you believe it's the only valid Christian theology. They may be able to defend it in the other thread.

Question for Reform Christians
 
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
Where does the Bible say that God created hell / lake of fire?

Well, let me ask you...

Does the Bible mention hell? I would assume you agree the answer is yes.

Does anyone, besides God, have the ability to create? And by create, I mean there was nothing, and then there was something. Not using existing matter and re-purposing this existing matter. If yes, then this really begs many new questions. If not, then God created it presumably, right?


I explained before that I didn't believe this kind of theology. If this is the theology you want to discuss, you may choose to contribute in the thread I suggested in my last message, where Reformed believers are discussing faith.

I haven't read the rest of your message, yet. If it all against Calvinist /Reformed / Baptist theology, I will not be able to defend this type of theology bec I don't believe in it and you believe it's the only valid Christian theology.

Why is this "kind of theology" incorrect?

Furthermore, I ascribe to none of them, and yet, I am still capable of demonstrating the points, as given from each. Can't you?

And no, I do not believe in any particular 'theology' thus far. And if you give me yours specifically, I might be able to demonstrate why.
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Why is this "kind of theology" incorrect?
Reformed theology was condemned by the Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Lutherans, and Arminianists, Methodists, and most pentecostals. Is this enough. I read the rest of your message and the response to the video clip. Everything you say is Calvinist, this is the only Christianity you know, and I will not be able to defend that theology.
 
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
Reformed theology was condemned by the Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Lutherans, and Arminianists, Methodists, and most pentecostals. Is this enough. I read the rest of your message and the response to the video clip. Everything you say is Calvinist, this is the only Christianity you know, and I will not be able to defend that theology.

I, as a fellow Bible reader, have read the Bible; just as yourself. If we are to get 'down-to-it', the intent of the author's message can only have one description or explanation, per passage, correct? Meaning....

... You could read a passage. I can read a passage. Based upon 'logic', one of three conclusions prevail:

1. You have interpreted the Verse correctly. Or...
2. I did, or...
3 We are both incorrect, in part or entirely.

We cannot both be correct, while holding mutually exclusive conclusions about the Verse, right? Do you agree? I would assume, since you apply your thinking to 'logic', this answer would be 'yes.'


Moving forward, HOW might we go about figuring out which one of the three options fits?

I could 'adopt' any number of a priori assumptions while reading Scripture. But this should not matter. The Verse means one thing.

MY point being, it might be best if you do not try to 'rubber stamp' a label upon me. I certainly do not do this with you. Furthermore, your prior assumption about me, was that I may not hold to a certain educational standard, as you wanted clarification of my background prior to continuation.

How about this alternative approach? Address the points, point out the flaws, and go from there :) Otherwise, reconcile/agree accordingly to the given points.

Apparently, you state you do not hold to a set of specific beliefs. Okay. That's fine. Does this mean that you disagree that if God does not accept you into His Kingdom, that your one and only alternative location is a place of anguish and torment? Please explain. And please keep in mind, I already watched your provided 3 minute video, and responded accordingly.


TY in advance :)
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I, as a fellow Bible reader, have read the Bible; just as yourself. If we are to get 'down-to-it', the intent of the author's message can only have one description or explanation, per passage, correct? Meaning....

... You could read a passage. I can read a passage. Based upon 'logic', one of three conclusions prevail:

1. You have interpreted the Verse correctly. Or...
2. I did, or...
3 We are both incorrect, in part or entirely.

We cannot both be correct, while holding mutually exclusive conclusions about the Verse, right? Do you agree? I would assume, since you apply your thinking to 'logic', this answer would be 'yes.'
What you said sounds logical and has to be correct. But we know that there are many many denominations. So, in practice, people who are otherwise intelligent are capable of producing arguments that to other intelligent people seem ridiculous and even Satanic. One of these theories is "predestination" where God elects some people to have faith and be saved while others do not. If it was true, then what is the point in living? What is the point in gaining experience? Babies might as well go to heaven or hell as they are predestined with ought going through this life. A ridiculous idea that Augustine imported from Manichianism and Calvin systematized it into dogma. But Reformed and Baptists believe in this. And there are millions of them. The Catholic Encyclopedia says:

"It was Calvin who elaborated the repulsive doctrine that an absolute Divine decree from all eternitypositively predestined part of mankind to hell and, in order to obtain this end effectually, also to sin."

Moving forward, HOW might we go about figuring out which one of the three options fits?

I could 'adopt' any number of a priori assumptions while reading Scripture. But this should not matter. The Verse means one thing.
The verse frequently needs to be interpreted in the context of "scripture, tradition, and reason," as the Anglican forum here is so intelligently labelled. There is no such a thing as "sola scriptura." Even Reformers who promoted this phrase accepted important parts of Church tradition. Scriptures first but we cannot contradict logic. In the beginning was the Logic. Even the above quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia described Calvin's doctrine as "repulsive." That description itself relies on logic. Without logic the world falls apart.

MY point being, it might be best if you do not try to 'rubber stamp' a label upon me. I certainly do not do this with you. Furthermore, your prior assumption about me, was that I may not hold to a certain educational standard, as you wanted clarification of my background prior to continuation.
I cannot study any subject without classification. Think of the taxonomy of plants and animals for example. Adam's first task was to give names to the animals. Different theologies are also classifications. I don't mind being classified into an Anglican who believes in Greek Orthodox and Arminian theology, for example. I don't like that in the CF a lot of members choose the designation "Christian" which doesn't tell about their theological inclination. I think most of them are Baptists but are ashamed to admit it :). Everything in the world has to be "rubber stamped" somehow. You save a lot of time and energy by knowing the kind of bias that a certain person has. We all have bias. I don't need to ask you anymore because I'm sure of your theological bias. Or we can it anti-theological bias in this case :).

How about this alternative approach? Address the points, point out the flaws, and go from there :) Otherwise, reconcile/agree accordingly to the given points.

Apparently, you state you do not hold to a set of specific beliefs. Okay. That's fine.
I do have a set of specific beliefs, a certain bias if you will. My thinking agrees with John Wesley, CS Lewis, and NT Wright. I did not reinvent Christianity, so you can rubber stamp me "Methodist" or low-church Anglican as this is closest to my theology. And I attend Pentecostal church. Even though I disagree with some of their theology, I like the style of worship. I'm not inventing a denomination.

Does this mean that you disagree that if God does not accept you into His Kingdom, that your one and only alternative location is a place of anguish and torment? Please explain. And please keep in mind, I already watched your provided 3 minute video, and responded accordingly.
The 3-minute video condenses the idea I presented in previous posts about people who choose to behave like lower animals rather than reflecting God's image.

I don't believe that in one of the days of creation God created a hell / lake of fire. It doesn't say this anywhere. But this is semantics and the effect is the same anyway. Hell is to be away from God. God is omnipresent, so we cannot be outside God. But we can choose to be near the center (heaven) or toward the periphery (hell), depending on our love for God. I'm not denying the existence of hell. Suppose a criminal ends up in prison, did he send himself there or did the society in the form of police, courts, and correctional officers? You can look at it either way, or you can say it was karma law.

Plz try reading post #279, I wrote and edited that post over several hours and it's possible you didn't read the final edition :).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

HitchSlap

PROUDLY PRIMATE
Aug 6, 2012
14,723
5,468
✟281,096.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
You're an atheist. You don't believe God exist. How is an imaginary character who doesn't exist in reality going to send you to hell?!
Sometimes there's value in discussing hypotheticals, even if the characters are imaginary.
 
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
What you said sounds logical and has to be correct. But we know that there are many many denominations. So, in practice, people who are otherwise intelligent are capable of producing arguments that to other intelligent people seem ridiculous and even Satanic. One of these theories is "predestination" where God elects some people to have faith and be saved while others do not. If it was true, then what is the point in living? What is the point in gaining experience? Babies might as well go to heaven or hell as they are predestined with ought going through this life. A ridiculous idea that Augustine imported from Manichianism and Calvin systematized it into dogma. But Reformed and Baptists believe in this. And there are millions of them. The Catholic Encyclopedia says:

"It was Calvin who elaborated the repulsive doctrine that an absolute Divine decree from all eternitypositively predestined part of mankind to hell and, in order to obtain this end effectually, also to sin."

I'm trying to stick to the main objective. -- The objective put forth mainly in post 264... After we conclude (this) objective, if you wish, we can certainly delve into the many other 'topics', as I thought we might; as also mentioned in post 264 :)

Thus far, we have been addressing the apparent false dichotomy God provides. It apparently brings up other topics, such as 'free will', 'belief', 'faith', etc... Using the LoL alone, being an 'atheist,' Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic, other other other, really does not matter here. The LoL, as you agree, is a "fundamental law", regardless of personal 'convictions'/'beliefs'/'faith'/other. In this case, I see no reason to be concerned with particular 'denominations', or lack there-of...


Regardless of our a piori, we both agree to know what is a true dichotomy ---> a), or not a). God's provided 'created' environment does not look to adhere to the fundamental LoL. He creates existence to where, if we stay near Him, we are in bliss. If we 'choose' not to, or He chooses not to accept us, we are only in agony. He decided to create a realm of complete opposites (i.e.) - Either absolute zero, or boiling tungsten. Again, His decision was to create two realms, extreme bliss or extreme torment. This is not a true dichotomy. See below...


The verse frequently needs to be interpreted in the context of "scripture, tradition, and reason," as the Anglican forum here is so intelligently labelled. There is no such a thing as "sola scriptura." Even Reformers who promoted this phrase accepted important parts of Church tradition. Scriptures first but we cannot contradict logic. In the beginning was the Logic. Even the above quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia described Calvin's doctrine as "repulsive." That description itself relies on logic. Without logic the world falls apart.

I feel this response has completely and entirely side-stepped my point :(

The author of the Bible writes a Verse. It has [A] meaning. We can no longer ask the author what the Verse means. He is dead. Asking 'God' seems to get us no closer either, as many claim to speak to God, and give conflicting answers. However, again using 'logic', the author's intent of a Verse means one thing. Case and point below. Let's start with a seemingly axiomatic Verse, for explanatory purposes...


"God instructed Noah to build an ark in which he, his sons, and their wives, together with male and female of all living creatures, would be saved from the waters."

Was the author's intent literal or not literal? If it was literal, then many questions of science seem to arise. If the Verse was meant NOT to be literal, then what did the author mean, and why does it appear that God would invite confusion among His professed followers?

The Verse is either literal, as written, or it is not. We can't ask the author, we also apparently can't ask God. But the Verse is trying to give us a piece of information? Your current professed denomination looks irrelevant. My lack in belief looks irrelevant. The author intended one objective. ---> To convey a message. What is the author's intent?


I cannot study any subject without classification. Think of the taxonomy of plants and animals for example. Adam's first task was to give names to the animals. Different theologies are also classifications. I don't mind being classified into an Anglican who believes in Greek Orthodox and Arminian theology, for example. I don't like that in the CF a lot of members choose the designation "Christian" which doesn't tell about their theological inclination. I think most of them are Baptists but are ashamed to admit it :). Everything in the world has to be "rubber stamped" somehow. You save a lot of time and energy by knowing the kind of bias that a certain person has. We all have bias. I don't need to ask you anymore because I'm sure of your theological bias. Or we can it anti-theological bias in this case :).

I have not classified myself. However, you want to. And though I can gather why you do this, it still does not matter regardless. Using 'logic' renders personal beliefs irrelevant. I'm trying to stick to 'logic' here.

Furthermore, my label is 'skeptic.' I'm addressing concepts, as written from the Bible. We seem to agree about some of these concepts, regardless of our differing backgrounds, beliefs, etc. Care to continue?


I do have a set of specific beliefs, a certain bias if you will. My thinking agrees with John Wesley, CS Lewis, and NT Wright. I did not reinvent Christianity, so you can rubber stamp me "Methodist" or low-church Anglican as this is closest to my theology. And I attend Pentecostal church. Even though I disagree with some of their theology, I like the style of worship. I'm not inventing a denomination.

I'd rather not, at this particular juncture, for the reasons stated above; and to instead stick with the 'facts'. By this, I mean to come to a conclusion about (whether or not) God presents a false dilemma, and possibly contradicts His own given 'logic'?


The 3-minute video condenses the idea I presented in previous posts about people who choose to behave like lower animals rather than reflecting God's image.

The 3-minute-video does nothing to address the false dilemma in which God chose the 'create'. Please see above for details.

I'm not denying the existence of hell.

Okay. Does the Bible explain any characteristics about hell? And furthermore, is this the only other realm one can go, apart from heaven?


Suppose a criminal ends up in prison, did he send himself there or did the society in the form of police, courts, and correctional officers? You can look at it either way, or you can say it was karma law.

Remember, [you] brought up 'free will', not me. I then addressed this already. We likely do not have 'free will', under the direct topics of taxation and man made laws.

But getting back on point, God could choose whom He wants in His 'forever kingdom'. However, God opted for the conclusion that the only alternative plain of eternal existence, is one of mentioned extreme suffering. God has decided to impose His will upon the dichotomy. God setup an environment, which in absence of His direct presence, is only one of torment.


Plz try reading post #279, I wrote and edited that post over several hours and it's possible you didn't read the final edition :).

I'll take a look. But at this point, I'm primarily concerned with the false dichotomy, as initially expressed in post 264. :)
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
But at this point, I'm primarily concerned with the false dichotomy, as initially expressed in post 264. :)
Sounds Good.

God is both the rule maker, as well as the rule enforcer. Please tell me what you translate this saying to mean to you???
I translate this saying to mean that the Christian theology you're familiar with is Reformed theology. But according to my understanding, God is the rule maker. But He is not the rule enforcer. I mentioned in a previous message that God himself follows the rules of the universe that He created. Actually, it seems that Satan enforces the law of sin and death.

Perhaps we can start here. The provided video, I have provided before elsewhere. Maybe you have seen it? And yes, it does not stay true to the 'facts' completely. But please watch the entire 6 minute video, and please address the main message. In the end, it really does look to be an either/or proposition:
Here are problems in the video:

1) Mr Smith raped Ms Thompson. He did confess and apologize. But still he needs to be punished according to the law of society. More-so bec Ms Thompson did not forgive him.

2) God does not have the right to forgive Mr Smith's temporal transgression or to grant clemency to the criminal.

3) God may choose to forgive the eternal sentence based on his own righteousness. This has nothing to do with the Lord's sacrifice.

4) God did not the crucifixion of his Son. a) the Son is God himself and not a different being. b) the Son was crucified by the powers of evil not by God.

5) there is no such a thing as the Son being "punished on your behalf."

6) Mr Smith declares that he accepts some sort of gift but he does not show a change of attitudes and behaviors in life.

7) The judge demands that Ms Thompson believes even though everything she had witnessed was injustice and lack of sympathy.

8) Mr Clark shouted another girl's name while making love to his wife. He never cheated on his wife. So, this is a very minor offense.

9) But the judge shouts, "You cheated on her in your heart." This is quite a ridiculous thing to say, taking a psychological hyperbole of Jesus and making it a literal legal law!

10) Mr Clark confessed and apologized and his wife forgave him, this should be the end of the story.

11) We saw Jesus forgive sinners all the time and even the Jews admitted that God can forgive sin but this judge refused to forgive.

12) The judge brings his Son and punishes him again, can this story get more ridiculous?

13) Again the judge declares to Mr Clark that his son "has been punished on his behalf." No human being is punished on behalf of anyone else. That would not be justice.

14) The judge asks that Mr Clark accept the sacrifice and Mr Clark rightly refuses saying "This is barbaric."

15) The judge sentences Mr Clark to being burned continuously for eternity for his insignificant transgression and despite his pleading and his wife's pleading for mercy. And I thought the story couldn't get more ridiculous.

16) It ends with judge saying to Mr Clark, "And by the way, I love you."

This video has absolutely nothing to do with real Christianity.

Did I respond to post 264 adequately? You forced me to watch this horrible video, again. I forgive you :).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
I translate this saying to mean that the Christian theology you're familiar with is Reformed theology.

Again, even if this were entirely true, 100% irrelevant. See below...

But according to my understanding, God is the rule maker. But He is not the rule enforcer.

God created the scenario as follows... Eternal bliss, or, eternal torment. That's it. I trust you understand why this is a false dilemma? God choose what is to happen to the ones not in His kingdom. God imposed His will, and decreed one location for all unbelievers/non-followers/or-what-have-you.


I mentioned in a previous message that God himself follows the rules of the universe that He created. Actually, it seems that Satan enforces the law of sin and death.

Okay. Simple question then. Do atheists go to heaven? Let me explain...

If I don't believe you about something, is this a sin? Most likely not. However, if I do not believe God exists, but still attempt to live a 'moral' life, one that even happens to align with many/most of God's 'morals', would this even matter? Or is the fact that I am an unbeliever still denounce me, no matter what?

Is disbelief, or not being convinced in Him, considered a 'sin'?

All will sin, right up to the point of natural death. It is the ones whom believe, profess, repent, and worship, which are served favor. If I do not believe He exists, none of the above would be possible, logically. Hence, Christianity seems to be less about 'morals', and more about following.

Furthermore, please remember the point in Matthew 25:31-46. He separates into two piles - (alone and only). No alternatives of any kind mentioned.... And the 'other' pile SUCKS apparently! According to Him.


Here are problems in the video:

1) Mr Smith raped Ms Thompson. He did confess and apologize. But still he needs to be punished according to the law of society. More-so bec Ms Thompson did not forgive him.

2) God does not have the right to forgive Mr Smith's temporal transgression or to grant clemency to the criminal.

3) God may choose to forgive the eternal sentence based on his own righteousness. This has nothing to do with the Lord's sacrifice.

4) God did not the crucifixion of his Son. a) the Son is God himself and not a different being. b) the Son was crucified by the powers of evil not by God.

5) there is no such a thing as the Son being "punished on your behalf."

6) Mr Smith declares that he accepts some sort of gift but he does not show a change of attitudes and behaviors in life.

7) The judge demands that Ms Thompson believes even though everything she had witnessed was injustice and lack of sympathy.

8) Mr Clark shouted another girl's name while making love to his wife. He never cheated on his wife. So, this is a very minor offense.

9) But the judge shouts, "You cheated on her in your heart." This is quite a ridiculous thing to say, taking a psychological hyperbole of Jesus and making it a literal legal law!

10) Mr Clark confessed and apologized and his wife forgave him, this should be the end of the story.

11) We saw Jesus forgive sinners all the time and even the Jews admitted that God can forgive sin but this judge refused to forgive.

12) The judge brings his Son and punishes him again, can this story get more ridiculous?

13) Again the judge declares to Mr Clark that his son "has been punished on his behalf." No human being is punished on behalf of anyone else. That would not be justice.

14) The judge asks that Mr Clark accept the sacrifice and Mr Clark rightly refuses saying "This is barbaric."

15) The judge sentences Mr Clark to being burned continuously for eternity for his insignificant transgression and despite his pleading and his wife's pleading for mercy. And I thought the story couldn't get more ridiculous.

16) It ends with judge saying to Mr Clark, "And by the way, I love you."

This video has absolutely nothing to do with real Christianity.

Did I respond to post 264 adequately? You forced me to watch this horrible video, again. I forgive you :).

I disclosed, from the jump, the video does not completely stay 'true' to Christianity entirely :) But I appreciate you watched it a second time, and provided a blow-by-blow account. Thank you.

Just as I told you about your provided 3-minute-video. Your provided clip does not deal with the false dilemma.

The point of my given video, as I see it, is as follows.... As mentioned in post #288:

God could choose whom He wants in His 'forever kingdom'. However, God opted for the conclusion that the only alternative plain of eternal existence, is one of mentioned extreme suffering. God has decided to impose His will upon the dichotomy. God setup an environment, which in absence of His direct presence, is only one of torment.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
God created the scenario as follows... Eternal bliss, or, eternal torment. That's it. I trust you understand why this is a false dilemma? God choose what is to happen to the ones not in His kingdom. God imposed His will, and decreed one location for all unbelievers/non-followers/or-what-have-you.
You're right, the Bible doesn't describe a pleasant Summerland for those who reject the good Creator God and stop being image-bearing human beings within this good world that God has made. As NT Wright said in the video, "There is a part of me that would really love to be a universalist and say it will be alright everyone is going to get there in the end. But I actually think the choices you make in the present are more important than that."

Do atheists go to heaven? Let me explain... If I don't believe you about something, is this a sin? Most likely not. However, if I do not believe God exists, but still attempt to live a 'moral' life, one that even happens to align with many/most of God's 'morals', would this even matter? Or is the fact that I am an unbeliever still denounce me, no matter what?
Christians believe that no one can live a totally righteous and sinless life. And that we are justified by being "in Christ." But again, I described many degrees of heaven and hell, theologians speculate about these things all the time. But I'm baffled as why an atheist would care about the Bible or what an imaginary God may or may not do? God offers immortality to people and He suffered and died to bring about this immortal life in heaven. If a person thinks this is not enough to love Him and worship Him, that it is only a bedtime story, then all they can hope for is annihilation or reincarnation.

Is disbelief, or not being convinced in Him, considered a 'sin'? All will sin, right up to the point of natural death. It is the ones whom believe, profess, repent, and worship, which are served favor. If I do not believe He exists, none of the above would be possible, logically.
The Christian logic is that evidence for God is everywhere (Romans 1 that you previously quoted) and that many people found God and believed in Him without ever being told about Him. I suggested reading the first few verses of the Book of Tao. The whole book is quite small and is online. So, yes, ignoring the evidence is a sin. Of course, atheists say there is no enough evidence, they can argue this with Christ when they meet Him. He is loving and righteous. Better still ask him now to come into your mind and show the truth.

Hence, Christianity seems to be less about 'morals', and more about following. Furthermore, please remember the point in Matthew 25:31-46. He separates into two piles - (alone and only). No alternatives of any kind mentioned.... And the 'other' pile SUCKS apparently! According to Him.
This what the Lord says to the "goats:"
42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they too will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not care for You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Amen, I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’ 46 These shall go off to everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”

You can see that in this passage, like all the other passages you previously quoted about hell / lake of fire, people are being judged based on their actions, not their beliefs. I discussed this in boring detail in a previous message. So, you're wrong, Christianity is indeed about "morals."

Just as I told you about your provided 3-minute-video. Your provided clip does not deal with the false dilemma.
In the first few seconds of the video, NT Wright refutes the idea that there is a dichotomy between heaven and hell. There are different degrees of hell (see below). In the following 2 minutes of the video, he explains why choices we make in the present, as far as belief and unbelief are concerned, really matter.

The point of my given video, as I see it, is as follows.... As mentioned in post #288: God could choose whom He wants in His 'forever kingdom'. However, God opted for the conclusion that the only alternative plain of eternal existence, is one of mentioned extreme suffering. God has decided to impose His will upon the dichotomy. God setup an environment, which in absence of His direct presence, is only one of torment.
There is no life away from the Source of Life. Have you visited underground caves and caverns? There are beautiful ones in upstate New York. But "life" in them, away from sunlight, is very sparse and very different.

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Joh 10:10 I have come that they might have life, and have it abundantly!

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life! Whoever believes in Me, even if he dies, shall live.

Are There Different Degrees of Punishment in Hell? | Cold Case Christianity

There Are Degrees of Punishment in Hell

God applies this principle in the next life as well. God prescribes a variety of punishments in the next life corresponding to the crimes committed in this one:

Revelation 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

Jesus affirmed this truth in the Parable of the Wicked Servant:

Luke 12:42-48
And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. Truly I say to you, that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him, and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

In the next life, some will be punished more than others. There are clearly degrees of punishment. In a straight forward interpretation of this parable, those who reject the teaching and calling of God will be harshly punished, while those who have less clarity on what can be known about God (“the one who did not know it”), will be punished with less severity.

Degrees of Punishment in Hell - The Gospel Coalition

Biblical Evidence for the Concept of Degrees of Punishment
Below are some passages of Scripture that speak directly of degrees of punishment in hell. Here we will just cite the verses to establish the teaching in principle; then we will draw on them for specific exposition and application.

“Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town” (Matt. 10:15).

“But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you … But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you” (Matt. 11:22, 24).

“I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned” (Matt. 12:36–37).

“And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more” (Luke 12:47–48).

“But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed” (Rom. 2:5).

“How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?” (Heb. 10:29)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
You're right, the Bible doesn't describe a pleasant Summerland for those who reject the good Creator God and stop being image-bearing human beings within this good world that God has made. As NT Wright said in the video, "There is a part of me that would really love to be a universalist and say it will be alright everyone is going to get there in the end. But I actually think the choices you make in the present are more important than that."

Okay, so we agree. God creates what He creates. And the rules are as follows, anyone whom is not with Me, is 'against' Me; and thus, must exist in a "realm of suckage" - ("good" or "bad") - see below for more details. But wait, it gets even more bazaar. Also see below...

Christians believe that no one can live a totally righteous and sinless life. And that we are justified by being "in Christ."

Correct, so to illustrate my prior point, an 'atheist' could not go to heaven, no matter what. Again, according to believers, all sin, no matter what you believe or do not believe. But the ones whom do not possess the correct beliefs, are obviously 'not with Christ.' And like we addressed prior, belief is not a choice - (again, reference the pen being held over the table). See below...

But again, I described many degrees of heaven and hell, theologians speculate about these things all the time.

You can also do this with 'Disney Land' and a 'concentration camp".

Heaven = Disney Land
Hell = concentration camp

See below...


But I'm baffled as why an atheist would care about the Bible or what an imaginary God may or may not do?

I was a believer for decades. I continue to be surrounded by people whom do. I use this arena as a place to present my case, and to not cause discord among family and friends.

God offers immortality to people and He suffered and died to bring about this immortal life in heaven. If a person thinks this is not enough to love Him and worship Him, that it is only a bedtime story, then all they can hope for is annihilation or reincarnation.

I do not know what happens when we die. I have no clue. But I find very little evidence for the case of a man, 'whom has resurrected'. For me, it's about not being convinced that such said events actually happened. And in regards to what happens when we do, who knows?

The Christian logic is that evidence for God is everywhere (Romans 1 that you previously quoted) and that many people found God and believed in Him without ever being told about Him. I suggested reading the first few verses of the Book of Tao. The whole book is quite small and is online. So, yes, ignoring the evidence is a sin. Of course, atheists say there is no enough evidence, they can argue this with Christ when they meet Him. He is loving and righteous. Better still ask him now to come into your mind and show the truth.

I do not 'ignore evidence'. I just do not apply fallacious reasoning, and conclude that because I do not know how we got here, it MUST be from a god. Maybe the 'universe' always was? If so, 'creation' then becomes a superfluous notion, doesn't it?


I ask you again, point/blank... Can an atheist go to heaven? Simple yes or no question... If the answer is yes, then many questions arise.... If no, then 'morals' appear irrelevant. See below....

This what the Lord says to the "goats:"
42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they too will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not care for You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Amen, I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’ 46 These shall go off to everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”

You can see that in this passage, like all the other passages you previously quoted about hell / lake of fire, people are being judged based on their actions, not their beliefs. I discussed this in boring detail in a previous message. So, you're wrong, Christianity is indeed about "morals."

You may not have seen another thread I started, called 'Purveyor of Confusion' :) I'm aware of how differing Christians grapple with grace/faith/works/other. :) However, the point of this passage, was for me to illustrate a very specific point.

Regardless of how Christ selects the 'chosen ones' - (beliefs/works/deeds/grace/other), the point is Jesus's chosen go to Disney Land, the ones not chosen go to a concentration camp. This is God's dichotomy...

See below for details....


In the first few seconds of the video, NT Wright refutes the idea that there is a dichotomy between heaven and hell. There are different degrees of hell (see below). In the following 2 minutes of the video, he explains why choices we make in the present, as far as belief and unbelief are concerned, really matter.

Disney Land = Heaven
Concentration camp = Hell

Your above explanation can perfectly describe the above two only realms of existence.


- Maybe you are sent to Disney Land (Heaven), but you are not awarded the 'fast pass' to cut in line. But others are.

- Maybe you are sent to the concentration camp (hell), but instead of being placed in a hot box, they merely starve you and only provide dog food to eat, once every other day.


There is no life away from the Source of Life. Have you visited underground caves and caverns? There are beautiful ones in upstate New York. But "life" in them, away from sunlight, is very sparse and very different.

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Joh 10:10 I have come that they might have life, and have it abundantly!

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life! Whoever believes in Me, even if he dies, shall live.

Are There Different Degrees of Punishment in Hell? | Cold Case Christianity

There Are Degrees of Punishment in Hell

God applies this principle in the next life as well. God prescribes a variety of punishments in the next life corresponding to the crimes committed in this one:

Revelation 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

Jesus affirmed this truth in the Parable of the Wicked Servant:

Luke 12:42-48
And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. Truly I say to you, that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him, and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

In the next life, some will be punished more than others. There are clearly degrees of punishment. In a straight forward interpretation of this parable, those who reject the teaching and calling of God will be harshly punished, while those who have less clarity on what can be known about God (“the one who did not know it”), will be punished with less severity.

Degrees of Punishment in Hell - The Gospel Coalition

Biblical Evidence for the Concept of Degrees of Punishment
Below are some passages of Scripture that speak directly of degrees of punishment in hell. Here we will just cite the verses to establish the teaching in principle; then we will draw on them for specific exposition and application.

“Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town” (Matt. 10:15).

“But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you … But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you” (Matt. 11:22, 24).

“I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned” (Matt. 12:36–37).

“And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more” (Luke 12:47–48).

“But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed” (Rom. 2:5).

“How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?” (Heb. 10:29)

Please see above
 
Upvote 0

NBB

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 19, 2013
3,549
1,537
44
Uruguay
✟445,778.00
Country
Uruguay
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Again, even if this were entirely true, 100% irrelevant. See below...



God created the scenario as follows... Eternal bliss, or, eternal torment. That's it. I trust you understand why this is a false dilemma? God choose what is to happen to the ones not in His kingdom. God imposed His will, and decreed one location for all unbelievers/non-followers/or-what-have-you.




Okay. Simple question then. Do atheists go to heaven? Let me explain...

If I don't believe you about something, is this a sin? Most likely not. However, if I do not believe God exists, but still attempt to live a 'moral' life, one that even happens to align with many/most of God's 'morals', would this even matter? Or is the fact that I am an unbeliever still denounce me, no matter what?

Is disbelief, or not being convinced in Him, considered a 'sin'?

All will sin, right up to the point of natural death. It is the ones whom believe, profess, repent, and worship, which are served favor. If I do not believe He exists, none of the above would be possible, logically. Hence, Christianity seems to be less about 'morals', and more about following.

Furthermore, please remember the point in Matthew 25:31-46. He separates into two piles - (alone and only). No alternatives of any kind mentioned.... And the 'other' pile SUCKS apparently! According to Him.




I disclosed, from the jump, the video does not completely stay 'true' to Christianity entirely :) But I appreciate you watched it a second time, and provided a blow-by-blow account. Thank you.

Just as I told you about your provided 3-minute-video. Your provided clip does not deal with the false dilemma.

The point of my given video, as I see it, is as follows.... As mentioned in post #288:

God could choose whom He wants in His 'forever kingdom'. However, God opted for the conclusion that the only alternative plain of eternal existence, is one of mentioned extreme suffering. God has decided to impose His will upon the dichotomy. God setup an environment, which in absence of His direct presence, is only one of torment.

A better discussion would be if God exists or not, because if he exists do you agree that there is no much point in having rebellion against him? when actuallly he is good.

If God does not exist - all this discussion is in vain.
If he does - what are you doing judging God, you know he has power to create the universe? and he is good too.

i guess questioning God is an atempt to reinforce your belief that he does not exist
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Andrewn
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Disney Land = Heaven
Concentration camp = Hell

Your above explanation can perfectly describe the above two only realms of existence.


- Maybe you are sent to Disney Land (Heaven), but you are not awarded the 'fast pass' to cut in line. But others are.

- Maybe you are sent to the concentration camp (hell), but instead of being placed in a hot box, they merely starve you and only provide dog food to eat, once every other day.
Interesting word picture. There is no happy ending for unbelievers as such. But a lot of details are missing. We don't know. I can speculate. Others speculate. Mormons certainly have a detailed speculative view. Rabbinic Jews speculate. But you're only interested in what the Bible says. Biblical writers were not interested in explaining the fate of unbelievers. They were only interested is saying: believe and behave yourself or else :).

Regardless of how Christ selects the 'chosen ones' - (beliefs/works/deeds/grace/other), the point is Jesus's chosen go to Disney Land, the ones not chosen go to a concentration camp. This is God's dichotomy...
Majority of Christians don't believe that God chooses who is saved and who is not.

I ask you again, point/blank... Can an atheist go to heaven? Simple yes or no question... If the answer is yes, then many questions arise.... If no, then 'morals' appear irrelevant.
Morals are quite relevant so long we accept that no human being can be perfect enough to go to heaven with his own works. Why would God put someone in his kingdom that doesn't want to be with Him? That would be dictatorship.

I do not 'ignore evidence'. I just do not apply fallacious reasoning, and conclude that because I do not know how we got here, it MUST be from a god. Maybe the 'universe' always was? If so, 'creation' then becomes a superfluous notion, doesn't it?
I find it difficult to ignore God's love in the creation and for his daily gifts to us. Or how can one read the Gospels and not fall in love with Jesus?

I don't think I added anything here that I hadn't said in previous messages and I think the rest of your post asks the same questions that have been answered. Sure we could not find a loophole for an atheist Summerland in the Bible.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
A better discussion would be if God exists or not, because if he exists do you agree that there is no much point in having rebellion against him? when actuallly he is good.

If God does not exist - all this discussion is in vain.
If he does - what are you doing judging God, you know he has power to create the universe? and he is good too.

i guess questioning God is an atempt to reinforce your belief that he does not exist

If you look at the CF description for Christian Apologetics, it states:

"A forum for non-Christians to challenge the Christian faith, and for Christians to defend their faith."

So yea, I'm a non-believer, whom is presenting topics of discussion, and putting them forth to the believers. Care to engage in this discussion? If not, then.....

....thanks all-the-same, but we are in the middle of a discussion here :)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
Interesting word picture. There is no happy ending for unbelievers as such. But a lot of details are missing. We don't know. I can speculate. Others speculate. Mormons certainly have a detailed speculative view. Rabbinic Jews speculate. But you're only interested in what the Bible says. Biblical writers were not interested in explaining the fate of unbelievers. They were only interested is saying: believe and behave yourself or else :).

To recap..

You can speculate, sure. However, the outcome looks to be 'crap' for the unbelievers, regardless of speculation; as per the Bible. And since all of creation is only created by God, God decides where all unbelievers will ultimately reside, as I would assume He created this realm.

However, if belief is not a choice, seems rather odd this is one of God's judgment criteria?.?.?.?


Majority of Christians don't believe that God chooses who is saved and who is not.

The Verse in Matthew 25 looks to be pretty dang clear. He decides whom is accepted, and whom is not. It looks to be a clearly dichotomous situation.

Morals are quite relevant so long we accept that no human being can be perfect enough to go to heaven with his own works. Why would God put someone in his kingdom that doesn't want to be with Him? That would be dictatorship.

Your response does not correlate with my line of questioning. I already acknowledged that all will lie, cheat, steal, etc, (i.e. 'sin'), all the way up to the point of death.

You failed to answer the question. Can an atheist go to Heaven? According to the Bible, the answer is no. Lets explore now...

Atheist - Lacks belief in a God. Tries to be a 'good' person, but falls short.
Christian - Believes in a God. Tries to be a 'good' person, but falls short.

The only difference above is the words 'lacks belief'.

As stated much prior, if you do not believe, you cannot also repent and worship, as this would be illogical.

Hence, the only defining different between the two, listed above, is (belief/non-belief).

Christianity looks to 'judge', based upon an attribute humans cannot control, 'belief.' This looks to be an amoral construct. Bazaar!


I find it difficult to ignore God's love in the creation and for his daily gifts to us. Or how can one read the Gospels and not fall in love with Jesus?

Tell this to an 8-year-old, whom is starving, abused, raped, then ultimately murdered.

Okay, now address what I actually wrote:

I do not 'ignore evidence'. I just do not apply fallacious reasoning, and conclude that because I do not know how we got here, it MUST be from a god. Maybe the 'universe' always was? If so, 'creation' then becomes a superfluous notion, doesn't it?
 
Upvote 0

NBB

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 19, 2013
3,549
1,537
44
Uruguay
✟445,778.00
Country
Uruguay
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You come to discuss, throw garbage at christians beliefs, you don't seem to try to learn anything because you probably just want to fight, and you are rude too. I wonder if the same equivalent could be found viceversa with a christian in an atheist forum. curious isn't?
 
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
You come to discuss, throw garbage at christians beliefs, you don't seem to try to learn anything because you probably just want to fight, and you are rude too. I wonder if the same equivalent could be found viceversa with a christian in an atheist forum. curious isn't?

From the SoP:

"Christian Apologetics is a branch of theology that concerns itself with the rational defense of the Christian faith against arguments and opposing viewpoints. The purpose of the Christian Apologetics forum is to give non-Christians the opportunity to start threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs. Christians may start threads to present an argument in support of the Christian faith. Threads that are started for the sole purpose of ridiculing Christians and Christianity will not be tolerated. Promoting faiths other than Christianity will also not be permitted.

As a general guide for posting topics, non-Christians who are challenging Christianity should offer arguments as to why Christian beliefs are incorrect or untrue. Similarly, threads started by Christians should contain an argument why Christian beliefs are true and correct. All thread topics must contain an identifiable argument against or for the Christian faith. All participants should endeavor to support their arguments, and their rebuttals, with evidence.
"

Here is a kick start, if you care to start joining..... The following topics have already been addressed, in this particular discussion, with nothing but respect. If you wish to speak about 'why God must exist", I suggest you start a thread about it. Otherwise:

- Is not believing in something really considered 'sin'?
- Is telling your reader that "if they do not believe, they will surely burn" anything other than coercion or an ultimatum?
- God could apparently create any environment He wanted, and chose to create Disney Land and a concentration camp - (nothing else, or in between).
- Is telling the reader that if you do not believe, it is only because you are filled with 'sin', logical?
- Is telling the reader, that the only 'smart' conclusion, is to look around you, and only assume it came from a God, logical thinking? Or is it instead recommending fallacious reasoning?

I'll stop here...
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
You can speculate, sure. However, the outcome looks to be 'crap' for the unbelievers, regardless of speculation; as per the Bible. And since all of creation is only created by God, God decides where all unbelievers will ultimately reside, as I would assume He created this realm.
Yes, I think this is about all we get from the Bible. But most theologians would say that unbelievers choose to be away from God rather than God sending them anywhere. And I gave examples about how being away from God would be an unpleasant experience.

However, if belief is not a choice, seems rather odd this is one of God's judgment criteria?.?.?.?
I repeated several times already that belief IS a choice. And I stated that the conclusion that "belief is not a choice" is a minority view in Christianity called Calvinism, which is completely wrong. The Lord offers grace to everybody. We have free will, within the confines of our abilities and circumstances, to believe or to ignore the immortality that God offers.

The Verse in Matthew 25 looks to be pretty dang clear. He decides whom is accepted, and whom is not. It looks to be a clearly dichotomous situation.
This "choice" in the Parable of Sheep and Goats is based on people's charity. It is not based on belief. And it is not an arbitrary choice, meaning He doesn't just choose some people to be sheep and others to be goats.

Can an atheist go to Heaven? According to the Bible, the answer is no. Lets explore now... Atheist - Lacks belief in a God. Tries to be a 'good' person, but falls short. Christian - Believes in a God. Tries to be a 'good' person, but falls short. The only difference above is the words 'lacks belief'. As stated much prior, if you do not believe, you cannot also repent and worship, as this would be illogical. Hence, the only defining different between the two, listed above, is (belief/non-belief).
Yes, you got this right, according to the information we have in the Bible.

Christianity looks to 'judge', based upon an attribute humans cannot control, 'belief.' This looks to be an amoral construct. Bazaar!
I repeated several times already that belief IS a choice. And I stated that the conclusion that "belief is not a choice" is a minority view in Christianity called Calvinism, which is completely wrong. The Lord offers grace to everybody. We have free will, within the confines of our abilities and circumstances, to believe or to ignore the immortality that God offers.

Tell this to an 8-year-old, whom is starving, abused, raped, then ultimately murdered.
That poor person would most certainly go to heaven.

Okay, now address what I actually wrote: I do not 'ignore evidence'. I just do not apply fallacious reasoning, and conclude that because I do not know how we got here, it MUST be from a god. Maybe the 'universe' always was? If so, 'creation' then becomes a superfluous notion, doesn't it?
If the universe was not created and there is no moral agent / God then we do not have souls and our bodies will all be recycled after death and that is that. Or do you think that evolution produced immortal souls? If evolution produced immortal souls, which is a ridiculous thought, the fate of these souls can be speculated on in any number of ways.

I'm having difficulty understanding what you're asking.

Perhaps you're saying that there is no sufficient evidence for God in this life but it may turn out after death that there is God and judgment, surprise surprise. The invincible ignorance fallacy is a deductive fallacy of circularity where the person in question simply refuses to believe the argument, ignoring any evidence given.

Is there no evidence for God? Why then are there all those theistic religions all over the world?

"Superstition," atheists may answer. But this disregards what billions of people throughout human existence have considered to be "evidence."

Arguments why God (very probably) exists
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
Yes, I think this is about all we get from the Bible. But most theologians would say that unbelievers choose to be away from God rather than God sending them anywhere. And I gave examples about how being away from God would be an unpleasant experience.

I do not 'choose' to be away from God. I doubt God exists. However, the Bible states, in Romans 1:19:22, that I know He exists anyways, and that 'sin' is getting in the way. So this must be what I am doing ;)

And yes, God decides, not humans. He is the judge and the jury. Again, please reference Matthew 25:32

"He will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."


I repeated several times already that belief IS a choice. And I stated that the conclusion that "belief is not a choice" is a minority view in Christianity called Calvinism, which is completely wrong. The Lord offers grace to everybody. We have free will, within the confines of our abilities and circumstances, to believe or to ignore the immortality that God offers.

You are merely asserting statements. However, I have presented to you a simple test, to demonstrate that belief is indeed not a choice (i.e.):

Hold a pen 3 inches over a table top, then let go. But before letting go, make yourself believe the pen will not land on top of the table. If you cannot alter your belief, then you must reconcile that belief cannot be controlled. Lack of belief in a deity, or belief in a deity, is not willed. People follow evidence to conform to their conclusion(s).

And no, free will is not merely the ability to make a choice. If it were, you would have 'free will' whether or not to give a bank robber your wallet, when (s)he points a gun at your face and demands it from you.


This "choice" in the Parable of Sheep and Goats is based on people's charity. It is not based on belief. And it is not an arbitrary choice, meaning He doesn't just choose some people to be sheep and others to be goats.

I never said it was :) I acknowledged long ago the REASON I'm referencing this passage, was solely to demonstrate that God makes the choice, not you. Specifically, Matthew 25:32. -- Jesus separates the herd.

I'm fully aware this passage speaks about separating humans by their deeds, and not their belief(s). Hence, my entire aforementioned thread 'Purveyor of Confusion.'


Yes, you got this right, according to the information we have in the Bible.

Then what I stated prior is correct. Christianity is more about worship, than 'morals'.

All will sin, believers and unbelievers. But the ones whom possess the incorrect beliefs, go to hell. Hence, the tenets for salvation are based upon an amoral construct, as we cannot control what we believe. You cannot simply will a belief in an invisible agent.


I repeated several times already that belief IS a choice. And I stated that the conclusion that "belief is not a choice" is a minority view in Christianity called Calvinism, which is completely wrong. The Lord offers grace to everybody. We have free will, within the confines of our abilities and circumstances, to believe or to ignore the immortality that God offers.

Rinse/repeat - Will yourself not to believe the pen will land on the table, when you let go.

And the rest of your response is a blank assertion. And even if it was not, minority or majority views has no bearing on whether a belief is true ;)

And as stated above, 'free will' is not mere ability to choose between A and B. See above - (bank robber analogy).


That poor person would most certainly go to heaven.

This has avoided my response. You stated "I find it difficult to ignore God's love in the creation and for his daily gifts to us."

Are you stating that a young child, whom starves their entire life, is abused, is rapped, and is murdered, is also being touched by "God's love and His gift to us"?

If the universe was not created and there is no moral agent / God then we do not have souls and our bodies will all be recycled after death and that is that.

If this is the truth, I would at least like to know it; instead of possibly self-diluting myself. But I don't know if nihilism is the truth or not? I can only speculate.


Or do you think that evolution produced immortal souls? If evolution produced immortal souls, which is a ridiculous thought, the fate of these souls can be speculated on in any number of ways.

I see this as overly simplified thinking. Evolution has evidence to support it's claim. And one could convincingly argue that, what we humans call 'morals', are grounded or guided from homeostasis (Maslow's hierarchy), consequentialism, cooperation, game theory, empathy, evolution (tribalism), reciprocal altruism, humans being extremely altricial, and elders teaching the younger ones how to co-exist in society.

I'm having difficulty understanding what you're asking.

Perhaps you're saying that there is no sufficient evidence for God in this life but it may turn out after death that there is God and judgment, surprise surprise. The invincible ignorance fallacy is a deductive fallacy of circularity where the person in question simply refuses to believe the argument, ignoring any evidence given.

I'm stating that the Bible encourages it's readers to invoke fallacious reasoning. To look around you, and since you cannot fathom how it all began, you must conclude it came from the Christian God. Otherwise, you are stupid and/or evil - (filled with sin).


Is there no evidence for God? Why then are there all those theistic religions all over the world?

I found a good video which may shed quite a bit of light on this question. Be careful, it's rather comprehensive - (please watch past the first 2 minutes, as you might want to shut it off):


"Superstition," atheists may answer. But this disregards what billions of people throughout human existence have considered to be "evidence."

Arguments why God (very probably) exists

Can you point to a quote or a specific point you would like me to address, that is not covered in the provided 23 minute video above?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0