god and morals....

[magisterfaust]

A post somwhere in this forum appears to imply that to have decent morals, we need to be close to god.... This is just ever so slightly absurd.. I know penty of people who have yet to find god and have fine standards and morals...which is more than I can say for myself..

Do we really need christian spirituality to be moral...I know of a few pagans, athiests, and even a former laveyan satanist who is in a resposible job, nice to others, and does have a set of morals similar to most christians on this forum,, and in some cases, better morals than some christians on this forum

 

[Van]

A Christian would think of moral behavior as consistent with God's commands, but a person who does not believe in God might assume what seems right to themselves is the only moral imperative. Thus if raised in a culture that accepts treating others differently then they treat themselves, there would be no moral imperative against say cannibalism.

Lets take the idea that some folks have "better" morals than some other folks. Using this as a moral compass or yardstick, if I only kill old folks, that makes me have better morals than the guy in the next cell who killed children. In Christianity we are told not to compare ourselves with other Christians, but to compare ourselves with Christ.

 

[Sketcher]

Well, complete morality is only found in both the spirituality and example of Jesus Christ. We all know unbelievers who are decently moral as far as the rest of humanity goes, but for God, that's not enough. He doesn't let people into Heaven based on how good we were. If he did, no one would make it, since we all fall terribly short. He lets those in whose sins have been paid for by Christ, and those sins are paid for when you've put your faith in Christ, and make him the boss of your life. I'm not perfect, so I had to come to Christ in order to be forgiven. Now that I've come to Christ, I owe it to Him to become a better person. Such is the case with everybody. Nobody is perfect.

 

[magisterfaust]

Well, complete morality is only found in both the spirituality and example of Jesus Christ. We all know unbelievers who are decently moral as far as the rest of humanity goes, but for God, that's not enough. He doesn't let people into Heaven based on how good we were. If he did, no one would make it, since we all fall terribly short. He lets those in whose sins have been paid for by Christ, and those sins are paid for when you've put your faith in Christ, and make him the boss of your life. I'm not perfect, so I had to come to Christ in order to be forgiven. Now that I've come to Christ, I owe it to Him to become a better person. Such is the case with everybody. Nobody is perfect.

well..That kinda confirms where I'm headin'... And i will need my shades shorts.. coz it gonna get real hot.

 

[aiki]

A post somwhere in this forum appears to imply that to have decent morals, we need to be close to god.... This is just ever so slightly absurd.. I know penty of people who have yet to find god and have fine standards and morals...which is more than I can say for myself..

Certainly, non-religious people can be very moral. The thing is, without God it is very difficult to make sense out of what morality is and why there is an over-arching morality that transcends place, time and culture.

Do we really need christian spirituality to be moral...I know of a few pagans, athiests, and even a former laveyan satanist who is in a resposible job, nice to others, and does have a set of morals similar to most christians on this forum,, and in some cases, better morals than some christians on this forum

Consider the following:

"If God doesn't exist, human dignity, worth, and moral duty must have emerged from valueless processes. In fact, and in contrast, from valuelessness, valuelessness comes. On the other hand, God's existence offers a ready explanation for the existence of value in the world....Even if there were moral standards that could exist apart from God, it's difficult to fathom where human dignity, worth, and obligation could originate in a valueless and material world. A solely materialistic universe might produce in us feelings and beliefs of obligation -- like the protection of our children or the survival of our species -- but that's a different matter from actually having such obligations we ought to carry out."

(From: True for You but not for Me by Paul Copan. pg. 90 -100)

Peace.

 

[magisterfaust]

Certainly, non-religious people can be very moral. The thing is, without God it is very difficult to make sense out of what morality is and why there is an over-arching morality that transcends place, time and culture and what that means.



Consider the following:

"If God doesn't exist, human dignity, worth, and moral duty must have emerged from valueless processes. In fact, and in contrast, from valuelessness, valuelessness comes. On the other hand, God's existence offers a ready explanation for the existence of value in the world....Even if there were moral standards that could exist apart from God, it's difficult to fathom where human dignity, worth, and obligation could originate in a valueless and material world. A solely materialistic universe might produce in us feelings and beliefs of obligation -- like the protection of our children or the survival of our species -- but that's a different matter from actually having such obligations we ought to carry out."

(From: True for You but not for Me by Paul Copan. pg. 90 -100)

Peace.

good answer !! I don't totally agree with it, but i like it

 

[ebia]

A post somwhere in this forum appears to imply that to have decent morals, we need to be close to god.... This is just ever so slightly absurd.. I know penty of people who have yet to find god and have fine standards and morals...which is more than I can say for myself..

Do we really need christian spirituality to be moral...I know of a few pagans, athiests, and even a former laveyan satanist who is in a resposible job, nice to others, and does have a set of morals similar to most christians on this forum,, and in some cases, better morals than some christians on this forum

It depends what standard you are setting yourself. If morality is no more than avoiding big obvious stuff like murdering people that's one thing. But the reality is that pretty much everyone on this forum is benefiting from the exploitation of the poor and the exploitation of this planet beyond what it can sustain, etc. If you've bought any chocolate, say, and it wasn't branded "fair trade" there is a high probability that at least some of the cocoa was grown in Cote d'Ivory by boy slaves kidnapped from Mali and dragged across the border to live short lives in appalling conditions growing cheap cocoa to give westerners a small treat.

The Judeo/Christian perspective from Genesis 2/3 is that we all fall way short of God's intention for us and all frustration, suffering and death is as a result of that.

We are created to be God's image in and for the world - that's the foundation stone of biblical morality. We fall way short of that. And we can't begin to approach being restored in that without returning our focus to God.

To put it another way, idolatory (looking to something else instead of God) is ultimately at the root of all human failure and therefore at the root of all suffering. For the world to be restored we need to be restored and our focus put back onto God - for our own sake and for the sake of the rest of creation.

 

[drich0150]

It sounds as if you confusing Morality with righteousness. Righteousness is derived from the perfect standard set forth by God Himself. A standard which none of us can obtain on our own. Morality is relative to one's environment. There were moral Nazis when they were compared to other Nazis, but that doesn't make any of them righteous.

Just because you can stand in judgment of another's actions. Actions that you yourself would never commit, it doesn't make you anymore righteous than anyone else. Even if you can get an sense of morality or a feeling of personal righteousness from your actions (or lack of them) you like everyone else falls desperately short when we compare our actions to a true righteous and perfect standard.

 

[Spoonbill]

I do not agree that one needs to be religious or believe in God to have decent morals. I know many people who do not believe in God who are wonderful, helpful and kind. In their own way they are also thankful to be alive and to experience this wonderful life we have.

Just because you do not believe in God does not mean you are going to go out and rape and plunder because there is no fear of consequence. You don't do it because you don't need to know God to know the difference between right and wrong.

 

[aiki]

Just because you do not believe in God does not mean you are going to go out and rape and plunder because there is no fear of consequence. You don't do it because you don't need to know God to know the difference between right and wrong.

"Know the difference between right and wrong"? How do you know the difference? How do you decide what is right and what isn't?

Peace.

 

[drich0150]

I do not agree that one needs to be religious or believe in God to have decent morals.

Without absolutes how is one to know what decent really is?
In your opinion is decent good enough?
Should you be able to earn a spot in Heaven with decent?
Why or why not?

 

[Spoonbill]

"Know the difference between right and wrong"? How do you know the difference? How do you decide what is right and what isn't?

Peace.

Common sense. And empathy. I do not steal from people because it harms them. I do not murder people because it harms them and their families. I do not have to believe in God to not want to harm people or cause harm to them by my actions.

I do not need to live in fear of retribution to be good and kind towards other people. How do I know? Its a human instinct to be good and kind.

 

[Texan40]

Common sense. And empathy. I do not steal from people because it harms them. I do not murder people because it harms them and their families. I do not have to believe in God to not want to harm people or cause harm to them by my actions.

I do not need to live in fear of retribution to be good and kind towards other people. How do I know? Its a human instinct to be good and kind.

Just a brief read of any history book worth it's salt would sort of make your last statement laughable. The legacy that humanity has historically left in its wake are horrific scars. Perhaps the fact that even non-believers in the modern world can grow to become what you deem "good and kind" is a monument to the influence and longevity of the Judeo-Christian model on the world?

 

[aiki]

Common sense. And empathy.

Okay. So what about someone who is less empathetic or has less common sense than you? When he does something that, as a result of having less of these qualities, you would regard as immoral, is he actually immoral? I mean, he is simply following the dictates of his own empathy and common sense, just as you are, so how can you condemn him? Do you see the problem, here? What may seem empathetic to one person may seem cruel and immoral to another. In this circumstance the criteria for deciding what is right or wrong, moral or immoral, is far too subjective.

I do not steal from people because it harms them. I do not murder people because it harms them and their families. I do not have to believe in God to not want to harm people or cause harm to them by my actions.

And what about the person who does want to harm others? If he finds doing so personally gratifying and beneficial, on what basis do you say to him, "Stop that! Its immoral!"? All you can say to him is, "I think what you're doing is immoral." And he could respond, "I think it is not." How do assert that your point of view, your opinion on the matter, is superior to his and binding upon him? You're just another human being; you have no greater authority than any other human being.

I do not need to live in fear of retribution to be good and kind towards other people. How do I know? Its a human instinct to be good and kind.

There are some humans for whom such an instinct is not active. If their instinct is to be cruel and murderous instead, is it moral for them to do so?

And how do you establish what good and kind is? How do you arrive at such instincts from a naturalistic process that can confer no value upon our being and no moral obligation upon us?

Peace.

 

[Spoonbill]

Okay. So what about someone who is less empathetic or has less common sense than you? When he does something that, as a result of having less of these qualities, you would regard as immoral, is he actually immoral? I mean, he is simply following the dictates of his own empathy and common sense, just as you are, so how can you condemn him? Do you see the problem, here? What may seem empathetic to one person may seem cruel and immoral to another. In this circumstance the criteria for deciding what is right or wrong, moral or immoral, is far too subjective.



And what about the person who does want to harm others? If he finds doing so personally gratifying and beneficial, on what basis do you say to him, "Stop that! Its immoral!"? All you can say to him is, "I think what you're doing is immoral." And he could respond, "I think it is not." How do assert that your point of view, your opinion on the matter, is superior to his and binding upon him? You're just another human being; you have no greater authority than any other human being.



There are some humans for whom such an instinct is not active. If their instinct is to be cruel and murderous instead, is it moral for them to do so?

And how do you establish what good and kind is? How do you arrive at such instincts from a naturalistic process that can confer no value upon our being and no moral obligation upon us?

Peace.

You bring up some very valid points.

What indeed about people that feel it is right to cause harm / steal, rape and murder.

Its a tough one. But you have to admit that at a base level, all religions teach us to basically, not steal, not murder and not covet our neighbours cow or whatever.

I will admit that religion does have some very good guidelines on how to live life decently. Some I agree with more than others, but the general message is there.

I used to be a devout Christian and I still take a lot of the messages with me in my currently life. Perhaps I do not steal and murder because of these messages instilled in me earlier in life. But I do not follow them because of fear of retribution of because God says so. I follow them because I treat others how I would like to be treated. (I am sure the Bible says something about this).

If everyone followed this rule, I think the world would be a better place. I think almost all religions on earth expect this of a person.

(Did you know, as a side-line, that even hardcore Satanism does not allow stealing? I found that really interesting).

I have never met a person who has stolen or murdered and said they did it because "they wished other people would steal and murder from them".

It is the knowledge I guess that treating others how you wish to be treated will eventually make this world a wonderful place to live in. For me, this has nothing to do with worship or religion. I believe God is inside all of us, and that ability to treat others well CAN come naturally to all of us, should we choose to do it.

Empathy is a natural human emotion. However, it can be silenced by other emotions such as greed and anger if we CHOOSE to let it.

 

[Spoonbill]

Just a brief read of any history book worth it's salt would sort of make your last statement laughable. The legacy that humanity has historically left in its wake are horrific scars. Perhaps the fact that even non-believers in the modern world can grow to become what you deem "good and kind" is a monument to the influence and longevity of the Judeo-Christian model on the world?

Are you serious? religion has commited more attrocities "in Gods name" than anything else. ANYTHING else. Slavery, infantcide, genocide, intolerance and of course terrorism. All thanks to religion.

 

[aiki]

You bring up some very valid points.

What indeed about people that feel it is right to cause harm / steal, rape and murder.

Its a tough one. But you have to admit that at a base level, all religions teach us to basically, not steal, not murder and not covet our neighbours cow or whatever.

The very fact that there is something akin to a universal morality that you can point to suggests very strongly that God, the Moral Law Giver, exists. In contrast, naturalism cannot account for the existence of a universal moral sense in human beings at all.

I used to be a devout Christian and I still take a lot of the messages with me in my currently life. Perhaps I do not steal and murder because of these messages instilled in me earlier in life. But I do not follow them because of fear of retribution of because God says so. I follow them because I treat others how I would like to be treated. (I am sure the Bible says something about this).

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is called the Golden Rule in Christian circles. If naturalism were the source of our code of conduct, it would be more like: "Do unto others before they do unto you."

If everyone followed this rule, I think the world would be a better place. I think almost all religions on earth expect this of a person.

Yes, I agree. What do you suppose the world would be like without the moral influence of religion?

I have never met a person who has stolen or murdered and said they did it because "they wished other people would steal and murder from them".

Neither have I!

It is the knowledge I guess that treating others how you wish to be treated will eventually make this world a wonderful place to live in. For me, this has nothing to do with worship or religion. I believe God is inside all of us, and that ability to treat others well CAN come naturally to all of us, should we choose to do it.

How do you know God is inside all of us? And why do you believe that treating others well is a natural thing for humans? I look at the world around me and see something very different. I see selfishness ordering the values, and choices, and actions of nearly everyone. Divorce, child abuse, sexual promiscuity, violence - these are the common characteristics of the North American culture these days.

Empathy is a natural human emotion. However, it can be silenced by other emotions such as greed and anger if we CHOOSE to let it.

Yes, I agree.

religion has commited more attrocities "in Gods name" than anything else. ANYTHING else. Slavery, infantcide, genocide, intolerance and of course terrorism. All thanks to religion.

Actually, more people have been killed under oppressive atheistic regimes than under all religious ones combined. An estimated 100 million people were killed in the communist oppression of Stalin (Russia), Mao (China), and Pol Pot (Cambodia). All of these regimes denied God's existence.

Peace.

 

[Spoonbill]

Actually, more people have been killed under oppressive atheistic regimes than under all religious ones combined. An estimated 100 million people were killed in the communist oppression of Stalin (Russia), Mao (China), and Pol Pot (Cambodia). All of these regimes denied God's existence.

Peace.

Actually this is incredibly wrong. And this claim has been refuted about a million times before. Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot were not acting on their religion. They were driven more by Marxism and forms of communism. This had absolutely nothing to do with their belief in God.

I could say Hitler believed in God (which he did), but this had absolutely nothing to do with his actions.

What you have said is actually compeltely wrong I am sorry.

How many attrocities were commited flying "the Athiest Banner"? I can't think of any. How many were commited "doing God's will"?

Yes. Countless. George Bush invaded Iraq, killing thousands of innocent woman and children because, yes "God told him to do it".

Mulsim extremists blew up the Twin towers because "God told them to do it".

The Spanish Inquisition killed how many people? How many people were burned at the stake for being "witches".

I could go on. Please name one case where genocide was commited "In the name of Athiesm". Also note that Stalin and those blokes do not count as they were acting on a completely different set of beliefs entirely. I can't believe you didn't know this...


You asked me what I think the world would be like without religion? Well, it would be pretty crowded thats for sure. Seeing as people wont be killing each other because of their beliefs anymore.

 

[Adoniram]

...I treat others how I would like to be treated...It is the knowledge I guess that treating others how you wish to be treated will eventually make this world a wonderful place to live in. For me, this has nothing to do with worship or religion. I believe God is inside all of us, and that ability to treat others well CAN come naturally to all of us, should we choose to do it.

But that's just it...it cannot come naturally because man's basic instinct is to put self-interests first. You don't treat people nicely because it's the "right" thing to do, rather you do it because you expect something in return, in this case, to be treated nicely. Some might call that a selfish motive. A "what's in it for me" attitude. And that is precisely why, without God in the equation as the Supreme Authority, a simple "treat others how you would like to be treated," could never work. Everyone has their own selfish motivations for acting the way they do, good or bad. People naturally act in their own interests, and a lot of the time, that can be to the detriment of others, in one way or another. Only God can change that natural instinct, by changing our hearts, enabling us to put others before ourselves.

And what about people whom you know before hand won't treat you nicely in return? Do you go out of your way to be nice to them anyway? The Bible would tell you to "Love your enemies as yourself." This goes against every human nature, and is very hard to do...unless, and even if, you have been changed by the love of God in your life.

 

[Spoonbill]

But that's just it...it cannot come naturally because man's basic instinct is to put self-interests first. You don't treat people nicely because it's the "right" thing to do, rather you do it because you expect something in return, in this case, to be treated nicely. Some might call that a selfish motive. A "what's in it for me" attitude. And that is precisely why, without God in the equation as the Supreme Authority, a simple "treat others how you would like to be treated," could never work. Everyone has their own selfish motivations for acting the way they do, good or bad. People naturally act in their own interests, and a lot of the time, that can be to the detriment of others, in one way or another. Only God can change that natural instinct, by changing our hearts, enabling us to put others before ourselves.

And what about people whom you know before hand won't treat you nicely in return? Do you go out of your way to be nice to them anyway? The Bible would tell you to "Love your enemies as yourself." This goes against every human nature, and is very hard to do...unless, and even if, you have been changed by the love of God in your life.

Maybe for you man. That is a terrible generalisation. What about people who do humanitarian work such as my partner. She gets paid eff-all for helping other people. Do you think she does it out of selfishness, or the money? She does it because being kind comes NATURALLY to her. Get real man. Not everyone needs fear of HELL to be a nice person. (She is also not religious).

I respect what you are saying, however unfounded and dumb it is. Sorry if you are offended, but you basically just called everyone I know, who does kind, helpful things for other people "SELFISH" just because they do not share your belief in God. A fat load of help believing in God has done for your kindness man. I know MANY people who do kind because it comes naturally for then and they expect NOTHING in return. When was the last time you helped house a homeless person. When was the last time you paid for a homeless person to stay in a hotel, get them clean clothes and get them to a job interview (which they ended up getting)? When was the last time you reunited a mother with their children after many years? This is probably what my partner does in about 3 days work. Do not speak to me of kindness.

As for people who wont accept my kindness, well, I offer it once and if it is rejected I focus my attention and efforts on someone it will have a positive effect on rather than wasting each others time.

Is it really true that you think, without worshipping a deity, it is impossible to be nice to people without expecting something in return?

That is truely sad. And also incredibly inaccurate. Do you think the 30,000 years before Christianity, where human civilisation still existed, no one was nice to anyone else? Like, ever?

And as for "God changing our hearts", common man. Seriously? Any changes made to you are made by yourself and the power of your mind. Our minds are capable of stopping our own hearts if the desire and willpower is there. Yet a slight personality change is impossible without "magic" from an invisible being?

Incredible. It saddens me I am literally half your age and I seem to have more of a grasp on reality than you. It is your ACTIONS in life which matter, not your beliefs. If you believe that this Universe is Divine and not an accident, that alone is so absolutely awe-inspiring, that how could you not love it and everything in it without expecting something in return? "Gratitude" is not exclusive to Christians.