God ALWAYS answers Prayer - Yes, NO or wait

[razzelflabben]

For you to assume that believing God is doing exactly what He claims to do, is lack of faith, is the most laughable statement yet. God says in His word that His ways are not our ways, how dare we to assume that we know His ways.

Apparently you are either not listening to me or scripture or I am not able to effectively communicate to you so therefore, I will ask my husband to finish this answer and maybe his ability to communicate will be more of a help to you as you try to find what God really is saying to His people.

First let me say that what my wife was trying to advocate was not fatalism but the Biblical doctrine of God's Sovereignty. Perhaps your stubbornness caused her to overstate the case or perhaps it is because you somehow missed the point. We believe in a very powerful God who is able to "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." Romans 5:28-29

Please notice that God is able to work ALL things together for the good, not just the good things but all things. This is the God we believe in and serve. He is a very big God indeed who can answer more than yes. But are we really listening? His word provides all of the answers we need and is perfectly able to instruct us. "For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow, it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account." It is this Word that reads us and knows us and knows our every need. This is not fluff, it is almost two thousand years of the teaching of the church. God is sovereign and knows what we need before we ask for it. "And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your father knows what you need before you ask him." Matthew 6:7&8 I hope I do not have to point out to you that in Matthew’s gospel this immediately precedes the Lord’s prayer. Before Jesus taught us how to pray he reminded us that God knows what we want before we ask him and it is in fact his prompting through the Holy Spirit that leads us to ask. That is how powerful and sovereign a God we serve and that is how we communicate with him through prayer and the study of his Holy Word. It is not a one way monologue of babble to him. It is a back and forth dialogue between the creator and the creation, If we would just listen!!!!!! THIS IS WHAT MY WIFE HAS BEEN TRYING TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU FROM THE VERY BEGINNING OF HER ENTRY ONTO THIS THREAD.

Second, To quote a few scriptures that support what you want to believe is not "correctly handling the word of truth" 2 Tim 2:15 When one does this they are merely a sushi chef chopping up the Word into palatable bits. To be an approved workman one need to teach and correct and remind the saints that it is of value to endure hardship as the One who called and elected us does.

"Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God’s word is not chained. Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they to may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory. Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we die with him,

We will also live with him;

If we endure,

We will also reign with him.

If we disown him,

He will also disown us;

If we are faithless,

He will remain faithful,

For he cannot disown himself.

Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:8-15 I would commend to you to read all of this fine letter of Paul to Timothy and all who follow. It provides excellent instruction.

It is getting late and I have to be up early. I will post more tomorrow since this will be a rather lengthy post I may have to break it up into 2 or more parts.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

There is a prevailing notion in much of Christendom in this age. This notion holds that the gospel is just God's hobby. This notion thinks that the word of God is just suggestions. Those who hold to this notion think that God is so big and mysterious that we could never know Him, see Him as He is, or understand His ways. This notion puts God out of reach, and makes faith an act of devotion rather than an act of love and trust toward Him. I call this prevailing notion "mere theism"
Mere theism is made up of a collection of assertions about God we commonly refer to as the "general attributes of God"
These are things like:
God is sovereign
God is omnipotent
God is omniesent
Mere theism uses these general attributes to define not only our relationship with God, but the very nature and will of God.
In many churches and denominations, mere theism has replaced Jesus as their revelation of the Father God. People place mere theism and these general attributes above Jesus, and even use them to deny the revelation that Jesus has shown us of the Father.
Mere theism says we cannot truly know God because God is to big. But Jesus said He came to show us the Father. He did not fail.
Mere theism says that God is so sovereign that He is not bound by anything... not even His own Word or the gospel. The blood of Jesus and the work of Jesus on the cross is just something God tried to do, but it does not really mean anything.
Mere theism says God can ignore the gospel if He wants and deal with us outside of the principles of the NT.
Mere theism does not believe that the gospel is God's work to redeem mankind.
Mere theism thinks that we each have "personal relationships" with God that are not defined by the gospel, but are catered to the individual.
Mere theism thinks that the work of Jesus on the cross was not enough.
Mere theism thinks that we have to add to that work of Jesus, to take up where He left off.
Mere theism thinks that the work of Jesus was not enough to bring us to the Father... we have to do things that will "bring us closer to Him."
Mere theism thinks that the work of Jesus on the cross does not perfect us.
Mere theism thinks we have to add to this work of Jesus with extra-gospel acts of self denial and suffering.
The mere theist minister looks down into the sad empty eyes of his congregation and tells them to endure to the end, never suggesting that we are to live as overcomers.
Mere theism thinks that the will of God for each of us is still subject to immediate, individual decisions by God. There is therefore nothing we can believe or stand on. We can only hope that these immediate individual decisions will not include things like sickness remaining on our bodies or poverty that watches our children starve.
The mere theist cannot have faith because the god of mere theism does not hold Jesus to be the exact image of the Father.
The god of mere theism is to sovereign for that. He would never be tied down to the word or the gospel. That would be a denial of sovereignty.
Mere theism stands up before it's god and says "look at me... look at how faithful I am as I suffer this pain and sorrow."
Mere theism thinks suffering the pains and sorrows of sickness, poverty, and death somehow glorifies God. It only glorifies the mere theist. Jesus healing the sick, raising the dead, and saving the poor from their plight glorified God! Being healed, delivered, and having prayers answered glorifies God. What a strange contrast between the god of the mere theist and the Father that Jesus revealed to us! Jesus is the exact image of the Father... yet He never did any of these odd things that the mere theist prmotes. He never made anyone sick just to see if they would be faithful, rather He healed all who were oppressed of the devil. When He ministerd, He was always moved with compassion. This compassion always healed, bound up, and delivered. Never did Jesus sicken, impoverish, or deny anyone any good thing that they asked for. He always did good... without exception.
Mere theism denies this basic revelation that Jesus gave us about the Father. When Jesus spoke words of life.... they were words of the Father. When Jesus did good works... they were works of the Father. Yet again and again mere theism denies these plain and clear revelations of the Father by Jesus.
Why is it so hard to see and admit that God is good!!! Why does mere theism insist that God is so big and beyond our comprehension, that He can take "evil" and call it "good"? How can the mere theist teach and preach these things and totally ignore Jesus as if He were just a oddity. Why does the mere theist hold up Job of all people as a revelation of what our relationship with God is like?
The mere theist is a strange creature. He gives a nod to the gospel, but does not really let go of his own efforts to save himself. He is still trying to add to the finished work of God accomplished by Jesus. He is really afraid to just trust the gospel and give up on his own efforts. Will he ever just throw himself on the finished work of Christ? I pray he will. Until then his life will be tears and fears.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Unless I am misreading your post, you appear to be advocating what is known as passive determinism. This theological standpoint is built upon a hyper-calvinistic model of God's sovereignty which is much closer to Islaam's view of deity and the Hindu doctrine of karma than any biblical conception of God's control of our lives....

Many churches today (as well as contemporary Christianity) are eat up with it. I see this as coming from the old Greek and Roman gods who played with people like chess pieces. Our role is just to be shuttled about as actors in a play. God is a puppet master. We are little more than crash test dummies.
How sad.

 

[victoryword]

Theophilus7 and Didaskalos

Well said, both of you.

Quaffer

Sorry about the Doris Day routine (hahahahaha). I am trying to keep my posts short and to the point since I have a tendency to babble.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Theophilus7 and Didaskalos

Well said, both of you.

Quaffer

Sorry about the Doris Day routine (hahahahaha). I am trying to keep my posts short and to the point since I have a tendency to babble.

I like your posts Victoryword. . .I like Doris Day too. k. . .sera, sera, whatever will be will be. . .the future's not our's you see. . k. . .sera, sera.

but wait, God says the steps of the rightious are ordered of the Lord. And. . .He has a plan for the future, to do good and not evil. And He tells us if we ask for bread He does not give stones instead. It sounds to me like we can know at least that God is gonna take care of us. Good care of us.

 

[razzelflabben]

I commend all of you for showing how educated you are, your family's must be proud of you. I also want to thank you for pointing out so well, that our beliefs do not fit into any of the categories you are mentioning but rather, from a simple love of the scriptures and the truth therein. As soon as our holiday stuff slows, we will get back to the post and finish looking at the scriptures. Until then, I will continue to pray that anyone who reads these posts will have a heart willing to listen to the word of God rather than the teachings of any church and that they would find the truth of the God Almighty, for His is the kingdom and glory for ever and ever. (Father, son, and Holy Spirit) Amen

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Hi razzelflabben,
I get the feeling that you think you are being "smitten by scholarship"
Don't feel bad. We have all been there. Your faith is all that matters.

 

[razzelflabben]

hobart schmedly, my faith has endure thus far, I am sure it can handle a bit more. What really bothers me is the burden I feel for those who trade the word of God for what they are being taught, especially those people who disregard all scripture except those they find "enlightening" in exchange for unquestioned blindness. I cry for these deceived people, just as God cries for them. Education is a most wonderful thing, my husband and I both value our education highly but when that education comes between us and God, it is high time to back off the education, fall on our knees before the Holy God, and ask Him to forgive us and bestow upon us His wisdom, His knowledge, His understanding so that we might walk with the one true God, not a "educated" version of the God we would like to see. That would leave us with no less than how many billion different gods, lets see, one per each person in this world, each believing what he/she wants, boogles my mind.

 

[Theophilus7]

Here is another one of those "Christian" catch phrases in the church. What do you think? Is "yes, no" or "wait" the common type of prayer answers we should continually expect from God?

What percentage of our prayers are answered with a "yes?"

What percentage of our prayers are answer with a "no?"

What percentage of our prayers are answered with a "wait?" For those who have been answered with a "wait" how long did you have to wait? Did you ever get what you "waited" for? What are the Scriptural basis for your claims? I have mine which I will add momentarily. Let's discuss this.

I must confess I'm a little surprised that there's a debate about this. But perhaps I am too simple and need to give the matter more thought. But is it really so hard? We all acknowledge that God is a personal God. We agree that His self-revelation in scripture as shepherd, provider, Father and friend are for all of us. We know He has made us promises which He will keep. I think we all recognise too - and this is important - that He has an individual plan for each and every one of us. Surely God answers every prayer that is according to His will by giving the thing that we asked Him for. We make a request, and He either grants it, or He does not. And if the prayer is not according to His will, He does not grant the request we have made. Either He tells us why it is not His will, or leaves us to adjust our thinking and our acting before we approach Him with the matter again. The man who wants the Holy God to hear His prayers must learn to think correctly and live on "praying ground". Thus our duty is to tune in to what God is revealing about His will and pray for that.

But we are all too easily bogged down by semantics. If by an answer a person means that something about the will of God may be deduced consequent to something having been prayed, very well. God is either saying "yes" or "no" or "wait" in response to what you pray. Call that an answer to your prayer, if you will. But it is an answer that demands something of you. If no, are you praying something against God's will, or is there something wrong in your life that needs to be put right before God will answer this prayer? If wait, does God wish you to persist in prayer? Are there present circumstances that may make the blessing you asked for more like a curse, which God is planning to change soon - just be patient?

The matter seems quite simple to me. If our prayer is in accordance with His will, He will give us what we ask. If it is against His will then our prayer will not receive the "hearing" which John speaks of in 1John 5:14-15, and we must find out the reasons why this is so, whether 1) there was something wrong or out of timing with what we asked, or 2) there is something wrong with us that prevents God from answering our prayers.

Surely our aim is to home in upon God's will like an archer aims for the target. By "listening" to what God is revealing in His Word and by His Spirit, we can fine tune our prayers, and we will get what we ask.

I have only had a chance to glance at some of the posts on this thread. Perhaps someone could explain to me where the real controversy lies, and what people are essentially disagreeing about.

Theophilus7

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I must confess I'm a little surprised that there's a debate about this. But perhaps I am too simple and need to give the matter more thought. But is it really so hard? We all acknowledge that God is a personal God. We agree that His self-revelation in scripture as shepherd, provider, Father and friend are for all of us. We know He has made us promises which He will keep. I think we all recognize too - and this is important - that He has an individual plan for each and every one of us.

This is partially where some of the problem comes from T7. It is true that He does have individual plans for us... but those plans do not include deviations from the established will of God for all as clearly revealed in the word. Can we engage in the construction of individual versions of the will of God for each of us? There surely is an established,
set-in-stone will of God that applies to us all... no exceptions. Some folks draw the line at salvation, saying that we are all saved by the gospel and God does not say no to anyone when they come. Some extend this out further to issues of holiness, health, healing, and prosperity; believing that God does not say "no" to these issues either. I believe that these Father/Child issues are not subject to immediate-individual decisions by God. I believe these are all set in stone. It is always "yes" to the children in these area.

Surely God answers every prayer that is according to His will by giving the thing that we asked Him for. We make a request, and He either grants it, or He does not. And if the prayer is not according to His will, He does not grant the request we have made. Either He tells us why it is not His will, or leaves us to adjust our thinking and our acting before we approach Him with the matter again. The man who wants the Holy God to hear His prayers must learn to think correctly and live on "praying ground". Thus our duty is to tune in to what God is revealing about His will and pray for that.

Most excellent way of putting it. And again, the issue is "
what is the will of God", and how is it determined. I do not see "pray and see what happens" as a valid method of determining the will of God. It does not allow for our lack of faith. It assumes that our faith is sufficient when it in fact may not be. We may pray and not receive due to a lack of faith and erroneously come away thinking that God said "no" "because is it not His will." This causes two problems, first we are determining the will of God by the fruit of our own faith (or lack of faith) and not by the word of God, and second, we are framing the nature of God by the results of our own prayers. (It is accurate to say that the will of God is a indicator of His nature.) We come away thinking that our Father is the type Father who says no to His children. Is this the Father as revealed by Jesus. I do not see this.

But we are all too easily bogged down by semantics. If by an answer a person means that something about the will of God may be deduced consequent to something having been prayed, very well. God is either saying "yes" or "no" or "wait" in response to what you pray. Call that an answer to your prayer, if you will. But it is an answer that demands something of you. If no, are you praying something against God's will, or is there something wrong in your life that needs to be put right before God will answer this prayer? If wait, does God wish you to persist in prayer? Are there present circumstances that may make the blessing you asked for more like a curse, which God is planning to change soon - just be patient?

I agree with elements of this... except that I do not see where He says no. He just does not hear. The scripture you are about to quote indicates that all the prayers that He hears are granted. The prayers that are outside His will are not even heard, and so we never actually get to the "no".
Wait is tantamount to a "no." It is not His will at this moment.... so He does not hear.

The matter seems quite simple to me. If our prayer is in accordance with His will, He will give us what we ask. If it is against His will then our prayer will not receive the "hearing" which John speaks of in 1John 5:14-15, and we must find out the reasons why this is so, whether 1) there was something wrong or out of timing with what we asked, or 2) there is something wrong with us that prevents God from answering our prayers.

It is always a matter of why we are not believing. What is causing us to not have faith. One reason is (as we have pointed out) it is simply not His will. We cannot have a case of liquor. He is not going to kill your pain-in-the-butt neighbor. He does not even hear these prayers because you cannot pray them in faith. They do not make it above the ceiling.

Surely our aim is to home in upon God's will like an archer aims for the target. By "listening" to what God is revealing in His Word and by His Spirit, we can fine tune our prayers, and we will get what we ask.

And this is exactly where the disagreement lies. Some of us say that at least some the will of God is set in stone for us all. Some say it is not. Some think that every request is subject to an immediate, custom, individual decision by God. This is the "personalized" gospel that gets our prayer life in trouble. This idea gets so many believers bogged down because they attempt to determine the will of God via the results of their prayers (as discussed above) instead of the word of God. In some cases, they even go so far as overruling the word of God with this "personalized" will of God for them that is derived by what they perceive to be unanswered prayers.

I have only had a chance to glance at some of the posts on this thread. Perhaps someone could explain to me where the real controversy lies, and what people are essentially disagreeing about.

Theophilus7

Some believe that the will of God can be derived in total in the Word of God, and that it is the same for all. They believe that Jesus accomplished everything needed to complete our salvation, sanctification, and perfection, and that we effect these things into our lives by faith in His word. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Ultimately, everything God has for us whether it is salvation, growth, healing, maturity.... is aquired by faith in His word and the work of Christ. I may get into trouble with friends with this: but God in large part is passive in the administration of our perfection. He has put all the instruments of our salvation and perfection into place, and they are being administered by the Lord, the Spirit, and the Word. There is essentially nothing left for Him to do. It is finished.

Others think the will of God is an ongoing issue, being decided one a one by one, day by day, prayer by prayer basis. Jesus did not accomplish everything that was needed to effect our salvation, sanctification,and perfection. These things are accomplished in our lives via various methods such as sickness, poverty, and even early death. Essentially we have to add to the work of Christ to be perfected. This position holds that God the Father is still active in the administration of our perfection. Things are still up in the air (including His will for each of us) and therefore we really cannot know or believe very much in our prayer lives. It is not finished... it is an ongoing effort.

Peace
Hobie-

 

[razzelflabben]

I must admit that I often am confussed by what causes controversy in these threads. The controversy began when I said that God has a lot more to say to us than a simple Yes, NO, or wait. That we need to listen to what He wants to tell us. From there, things escalated into labeling, accussations, and defending the idea that God wants more from us than just a people who go to Him to ask for things. That God wants us to have an actual relationship with Him which entails much more than a simple yes, no, or wait answer.
When scriptures have been sited to point to this idea, the scripture has either been overlooked or twisted into something totally unrelated. Thus, the reason for the long drawn out thread and the reason I feel it vital to use this thread to study the word of God rather than a variety of teachings from a variety of churches. I hope this helps without inflaming tempers, I have been trying desperately to hold my tongue but that is very difficult when you are being ganged up on by people who are refusing to listen to what you are trying to say or the scriptures you are pointing them to. If this post has offended anyone, let me appologize in advance, but I believe that we need to be honest in our answers, so I spoke as I see this thread discussion unfold.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

.... I hope this helps without inflaming tempers, I have been trying desperately to hold my tongue but that is very difficult when you are being ganged up on by people who are refusing to listen to what you are trying to say or the scriptures you are pointing them to. If this post has offended anyone, let me appologize in advance, but I believe that we need to be honest in our answers, so I spoke as I see this thread discussion unfold.

We all have to be careful. I know I do. Do not read things into posts that are not really there.

Early in my marriage, I would make what seemed to me to be an innocent remark on an issue. My dear heart would become very angry and demand why I said that.

She was not talking to me. She was talking to some hurt or sorrow from her former life without me. We have grown to know each other (after 30 years), and now we finish each others sentences. But people who do not know each other well have to be careful not to see things that are not there. It is a matter of perspective and perception. We all have to exercise a bit of restraint and give others the benefit of the doubt.

 

[razzelflabben]

Oh how I agree with that didaskalos, I guess, that I have a harder time controling my own opinions on someone elses reactions when many others percieve the same things I am. I can tell you in love that many people are seeing you and others as ganging up on and not listening to them. I purposely try to defuse such insidents so that a dialog can be carried out but I know of others who walk away hurt and disbelieving or argue from their feelings rather than from the strength of the God within them, resulting in disention and name calling. I understand that many of these issues are very emotional for me as well as you, I also understand that it is counterproductive to label people and make them feel attacked. I am here to tell you that that type of response is not necessary to get you point accross and I am here to tell those feeling attacked that this type of berhavior can be overcome and an acutual conversation acheived if we simply get ourselves out of the way and let the Holy Spirit talk through us.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I purposely try to defuse such insidents so that a dialog can be carried out.

perhaps you have choosen the wise path grasshopper.

 

[victoryword]

Last saturday I received a used book that I ordered by a man named Dr. Charles Balnchard. Dr. Blanchard was the second president of Wheaton Colleg, a well known Evangelical Christian college. The title of the book is "Getting Things From God." The book was first published in 1914. Dr. Blanchard gives some interesting thoughts on this subject:

I have repeatedly heard beloved brethren say that when God declined to do the things which His children desired, the answer was as real as when He granted the things which they desired. The statement is sometimes made in this manner: "God says sometimes 'yes' and sometimes 'no.' 'No' is as really an answer as 'yes,' so that prayer is always answered." It has never seemed to me a cruel trifling with the souls of men to teach in this way. Of course, I do not mean to charge those who thus speak, with intentional cruelty or trifling. Nevrtheless, that which they do seems to me a heart-breaking piece of work.

... I do not believe this teaching to be true and I do not believe it to be a comfort or help to anybody. I think it would tend to make infidels rather than Christians.

An answer to prayer is a granting of the thing which a child asks of his Heavenly Father, according to the directions which his father has clearly set down.

 

[Theophilus7]

This is partially where some of the problem comes from T7. It is true that He does have individual plans for us... but those plans do not include deviations from the established will of God for all as clearly revealed in the word.

Yes. I would agree that God's Word always remains the plumb line. Of course, there is a question about how we interpret God's Word. Some people do not include a large enough breadth of scripture in their studies of God's will. A selective hermeneutic can pick on texts that, say, refer to having more than enough material provision, whilst discounting other texts which emphasise contentment during times of less than enough (Phil. 4:11-12). An imbalance is therefore created, ruling out the possibility that God's will for the present may be our testing during a period of hardship. I hasten to add that an imbalance in the opposite direction is also a danger. Christians may come before God never expecting to receive anything good.

Can we engage in the construction of individual versions of the will of God for each of us? There surely is an established, set-in-stone will of God that applies to us all... no exceptions. Some folks draw the line at salvation, saying that we are all saved by the gospel and God does not say no to anyone when they come. Some extend this out further to issues of holiness, health, healing, and prosperity; believing that God does not say "no" to these issues either.

My earlier comments would apply here. With regards to healing, I think the biblical data is very strongly in favour of Christians living in health. There may be some rare exceptions, but I think we can state with confidence that one should never hesitate to pray expectantly for healing (Jam. 5:13-15). On the subject of prosperity, I believe God makes it clear that He is not against material things and wants to provide them - He made the material universe! - but there is also data that strongly suggests Christians should be prepared to go through some uncomfortable times too, when God will not be dropping into their laps all the bourgeois comforts of good living that the rest of the world are so determined to retain, however much we may desire them.

I believe that these Father/Child issues are not subject to immediate-individual decisions by God. I believe these are all set in stone. It is always "yes" to the children in these area.

At least with regards to God's provision, there is room for "listening" prayer, I think (see comments above). I would also say the same for healing prayer, since we should let God tell us how He wants to effect our healing. He may not bring it about in the way we expect, or as soon we might like it.

Most excellent way of putting it. And again, the issue is "what is the will of God", and how is it determined. I do not see "pray and see what happens" as a valid method of determining the will of God. It does not allow for our lack of faith.

Certainly, our prayers must be biblically informed. However, I think God has left Himself a good deal of room to work out His plan in our lives. "Listening" prayer tells me if God is willing to give me that car now, next year, or perhaps never - He may have a different way of getting me about. The Word and the Spirit together inform my faith. I think we would do well to let the Holy Spirit apply God's general promises to our particular situations, then there is no room for presumption.

It assumes that our faith is sufficient when it in fact may not be. We may pray and not receive due to a lack of faith and erroneously come away thinking that God said "no" "because is it not His will."

Again, I would emphasise the need of listening prayer to confirm that we are correctly applying God's Word.

I agree with elements of this... except that I do not see where He says no. He just does not hear. The scripture you are about to quote indicates that all the prayers that He hears are granted. The prayers that are outside His will are not even heard, and so we never actually get to the "no".
Wait is tantamount to a "no." It is not His will at this moment.... so He does not hear.

God apparently heard Paul's prayer in 2Cor. 12:7-9, but said "no" to Paul's request to remove the thorn, since it would be an occasion for Paul to rely on God's strength rather than his own. This is how I understand the text, though I see that others view it differently. I don't have time to argue this point just yet. Paul's prayer did not receive the "hearing" John spoke of, though God did respond to it in a personal way. Likewise Jesus claimed that God always heard his prayers (John 11:42), though He clearly prayed for something that wasn't God's will in the Garden of Gethsemene, and the Father did not hear it in (what I hold to be) the special sense John meant.

I'm out of time . That will have to do for now.

Theophilus7

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Yes. I would agree that God's Word always remains the plumb line. Of course, there is a question about how we interpret God's Word. Some people do not include a large enough breadth of scripture in their studies of God's will. A selective hermeneutic can pick on texts that, say, refer to having more than enough material provision, whilst discounting other texts which emphasize contentment during times of less than enough (Phil. 4:11-12). An imbalance is therefore created, ruling out the possibility that God's will for the present may be our testing during a period of hardship. I hasten to add that an imbalance in the opposite direction is also a danger. Christians may come before God never expecting to receive anything good.

Thanks for your response T7.
A couple things.
Regarding the idea of using a "large enough breadth"
It is a common saying that goes:
"anyone can prove anything they want from the Bible"

This is true, and the opposite is held true by others:
"the Bible is so full of contradictions that it is impossible to know anything with certainty"

The problem does not stem from the lack of references, rather the problem stems from the weight you give them. At time the volume of references would seem to actually be part of the problem. The student must rightly divide the word. You can have a thousand references, but if you give one slant undue weight, then you end up with a skewed view. I am willing to say that 90% of the differences in the church world originate not because too few scriptures are being examined, rather it is because the incorrect scriptures are being given undue weight.
Paul illustrates this perfectly in Hebrews 5:

Hebrews 5:11-14 Webster
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need of one to teach you again which are the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong food.

Here we see believers whose error is not a lack of scriptures, rather they have lost sight of which teachings were the "first principles" or rudiments of Word. It was a matter of which scripture would be interpreted in the light of the other. The idea is that a building is being built, and unless the foundation is correct, the entire building will be skewed. It will not matter how correct the doors are set or how well the floors are leveled. Like these Hebrew Christians the foundation is wrong and everything that is built upon it is also going to be wrong.
Because they had the word incorrectly divided by priority, they needed to have someone come in and correct their priorities. Today we see believers interpreting NT gospel truth by what is written in the OT, even Job! We see people using the pre-law experiences of Job to overrule the NT promises that have been made good by the cross of Jesus. This I believe is the state of much of the modern church. They have their priorities in the Word incorrect. They look at Job (an other pre-gospel writings) and try and base their faith on those experiences with God instead of basing their faith on the revelation of God that has been given us by Jesus. We need to reprioritize. Are we following the man who did not even have scripture and use him as an example of the will of God for us? Or are we going to follow the NT, the gospel, and Jesus? You cannot do both. They do not agree. You cannot merge and twist them together into some warped mongrel doctrine and call that Christianity. The foundation of your doctrinal building will be so far out of kilter that you will never be able to believe God for anything. The doctrine and teaching you try to base on this hybrid "Job/Jesus" revelation of God will be full of fear, uncertainty, and lack. You are forced to either believe Job or believe Jesus. Which do you choose? Will you overrule Jesus with Job, or will you accept Jesus as what He is... the exact image of the Father's will and way?
Paul told the Hebrew believers that they had to forsake the OT law and rituals and put the NT first. What I am suggesting is that we need to forsake the OT revelation of God and put the Jesus revelation first. Failure to do this is why so many people are suffering and living the Job expedience. It is unto them according to their faith. They have what they say and believe.

 

[razzelflabben]

I am not even sure how to respond to the last post at the moment, for at first reading it sounds like you, hs are saying that only part of the scriptures apply to us today. I will reread it when I have more time but find that a very disturbing thought.

One of the things I see played out in the different "interpretations" of scripture, is what I call the pendulum swing. The idea is this. One group totally disregards one part of scripture or a least only deal with the issue on a very limited basis. Another group finds this to be a problem and so they swing the pendulum the other direction. The problem is that they don't stop somewhere in the middle but rather allow thier thoughts, teachings, etc. swing too far the other way. When I was growing up, my pastor always taught us to never take his or any other teachers word for anything in scripture but rather listen, then go home and study it for yourself. A lesson I took to heart. Most teachings have some eliment of truth. Many have enough truth to be dangerous, because of the swinging pendulum. What I have found in my many years of learning, is that 1. scripture never contridicts itself 2. All scripture must be viewed from a historical as well as a total scipture standpoint or you will miss the point. 3. Studying scripture is like a game of hide and seek. in fact, there is a scripture, (I don't have time to look it up at this present moment) which says, "for it is the glory of God to conceal a thing and the honor of kings to search out a matter. This means that we must look at and deal with all the scriptures that relate to a given subject, (that we can find) then study them, pray for the H.S. guidance, and fit them all together until there is no contridiction. If we allow ourselves to believe there are contridictions, it is if we are saying that God lies, (because one or the other is not true.) 4. The more we study the sciptures, the more we understand how little we really know. It is like faith, the more faith you have, the more you understand how little faith you really have. and 5. if you really want to understand the scripture, you must do more than ask the H.S. to show you, you also must ask God for wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. (all things scripture tells us to ask for.)

Well I must go for now, I will reread the last post and hope to find a different understanding than my first impression. Have a God filled evening.

 

[razzelflabben]

I must start with 2 Tim 3:16&17 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
1) Notice that Paul says all Scripture.
2) Know that the Scripture Paul is speaking of is the Old Testament. No New Testament book was written down till after the death of Paul. All they had was the oral traditions handed down to them.
3) All throughout the New Testament there are quotes from and references to the Old Testament.
4) Without the Old Testament foundation we cannot understand the teachings of Jesus and anyone else in the New Testament

By the way Job has much to teach us about the nature of God, Satan, and humanity.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I am not even sure how to respond to the last post at the moment, for at first reading it sounds like you, hs are saying that only part of the scriptures apply to us today.

To use the example of Hebrews 5 that Paul was talking about...
Do you understand Jesus to be the type and shadow that reveals the OT prieshood, or do you understand Aaron to be the type and shadow of the NT priesthood of Jesus. I am not saying to ignore the OT priesthood... just understand that we no longer operate under OT principles. The OT was types and shadows... vague images of the real thing. Jesus is the exact image. We understand completely and perfectly when we looik at Jesus. Why would we want to live in the dim and vagues images of old when we have the bright and precise revelation of God that is in Jesus? We would not use OT types and shadows do define the NT priesthood... why would we use OT types and shadows to define God? Especially when we have the exact image right before us?
I am not saying to ignore the OT revelation of God, I am saying what Paul said:
Hebrews 1:1-3 Webster
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself made purification of our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Listen to the Son!