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Global warming and the end

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Biblewriter

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...answer the question I put to you earlier.

And Steven Goddard is...? :doh:

It makes no difference whatsoever. I linked to a current news item.

But the fraud I exposed here is typical of the kind of fraud exposed as endemic in the climategate e-mails.

What I have proved, and proved beyond the possibility of rational debate, is that no climate information currently coming out of NASA Goddard's Earth Sciences Division can be trusted as even an attempt at presenting data that is actually based on fact. And the climategate e-mails exposed the fact that this type of fraud is not exceptional. It is the typical modus operandi of Anthropomorphic Global Warming "scientists."
 
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eclipsenow

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It makes no difference whatsoever. I linked to a current news item.
Do you have any evidence that it was actually a current news item, from a reputable source, and not some quackery from 'some guy's blog'? Then there's the credibility of 'current news items'. Remember 'climategate' and the way Fox News 'reported' that? It's hard to find such a horrendous and callous and cynical disregard for the truth: unless of course they were all just morons and do not understand the 'investigative' part of journalism.

But the fraud I exposed here is typical of the kind of fraud exposed as endemic in the climategate e-mails.
1. You're jumping the gun again and have not actually exposed any fraud. I'd rather you kept grand pronouncements like this to when you actually do prove something, rather than just assert unfounded and paranoid conspiracy theories based on your own peculiar reading of database history. More on that below.
2. Oh, so Fox News does clarify as 'current news' to you? You believed the climategate stories? Wow. :doh: :doh: It hurts to be you right now. That's up there with Aliens at Area51 and the Moon Landing was Faked. Go the conspiracies! ;)

What I have proved, and proved beyond the possibility of rational debate,
I think you need to have a glass of warm milk and a long afternoon nap.

is that no climate information currently coming out of NASA Goddard's Earth Sciences Division can be trusted as even an attempt at presenting data that is actually based on fact. And the climategate e-mails exposed the fact that this type of fraud is not exceptional. It is the typical modus operandi of Anthropomorphic Global Warming "scientists."
Rant rant rant, but so little evidence. But what else to expect from a YEC? ;)

Take your blood pressure tablets, and after a nice warm milk and a nap why don't you then explain how I am to believe a thing you say when I can't verify you actually copied the RIGHT NUMBERS FROM THE RIGHT WEBPAGE? I need a source. I've said it before about your quaint old maps. I'll say it till the cows come home. I need an actual SOURCE because if you handle data the way you handle verses from the bible, CONTEXT WILL BE EVERYTHING! You've already demonstrated a propensity to cherry pick data from anywhere you want to make it say anything you want. So I have no idea whether you copied your precious 'earlier data' from the average temperatures of a few States within the USA, the lower 48, or if these averages include Alaska etc. What does it cover? We cannot know. But I'm just to trust in your conspiracy theory and disbelieve peer-reviewed scientific evidence because you copied numbers in from 'somewhere' that demonstrate (through YOUR manipulation of the graphics) 'something'... are you serious? This is just embarrassing.

What you are attempting to assert is that there is a conspiracy involving not just NASA, but the WORLD's top 3 temperature monitoring databases (all using their own equipment). Check it out.

Of the top 3 climate monitoring units on the planet only Hadley says 1998 was the warmest, and the European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts (ECMWF) has pointed to a cooling bias with the Hadley data.
What has global warming done since 1998?

Two of the three most powerful temperature databases on the planet confirm 1998 as the THIRD warmest year on record, even when 1998 had one of the most frighteningly powerful El Nino's we've ever seen. Check it out — NOAA, NASA, then Hadley's CRU.

The NCDC at NOAA says:
///For 2010, the combined global land and ocean surface temperature tied with 2005 as the warmest such period on record, at 0.62°C (1.12°F) above the 20th century average of 13.9°C (57.0°F). 1998 is the third warmest year-to-date on record, at 0.60°C (1.08°F) above the 20th century average."
State of the Climate | Global Analysis - Annual 2010

NASA GISTEMP confirms the same thing and says:
"Global surface temperatures in 2010 tied 2005 as the warmest on record, according to an analysis released Wednesday by researchers at NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) in New York.///
http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20110112/

And now Phil Jones at the CRU, but don't forget the ECMWF has had a go at this particular dataset.

///The time series shows the combined global land and marine surface temperature record from 1850 to 2010. According to the method of calculation used by CRU, the year 2010 was the equal third (see footnote) warmest on record (with 2003), exceeded by 1998 and 2005. The years 2003, 2005 and 2010 are only distinguishable in the third decimal place. The error estimate for individual years (two standard errors is about ±0.1°C, see Brohan et al., 2006) is at least ten times larger than the differences between these three years.

The period 2001-2010 (0.44°C above 1961-90 mean) was 0.20°C warmer than the 1991-2000 decade (0.24°C above 1961-90 mean). The warmest year of the entire series has been 1998, with a temperature of 0.55°C above the 1961-90 mean. After 1998, the next nine warmest years in the series are all in the decade 2001-2010. During this decade, only 2008 is not in the ten warmest years. Even though 2008 was the coldest year of the 21st century it was still the 12th warmest year of the whole record.///
CRU Information Sheet no. 1: Global Temperature Record

But rather than argue over hundredths of a degree, which is all that seems to separate the temperatures, have a look at the 15 year trend *all* 3 agencies report. Brilliant graphic here.
nasa-noah-hadley.png


Climate monitoring - Met Office

Even Denialist's are admitting it. At the 2009 Heartland Institute conference (of global warming sceptics), well known climate denialist Dr Patrick J Michaels warned against using the 1998 El Nino super-spike as some sort of 'proof' of a cooling trend. Take the advice of the words of a fellow Denialist.

///"Make an argument that you can get killed on and you will kill us all… If you loose credibility on this issue you lose this issue!"///
1998 Revisited - YouTube

So while Denialists selectively zoom in on a few data points to try and skew the story any way they want, overall, the trend is clear.
Climate Denial Crock of the Week - Party like it's 1998 - YouTube
The last decade was the hottest on record, and anyone who says otherwise is denying the best data on the planet and pushing an anti-science agenda of their own.
 
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Biblewriter

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Quote what they say all day. But you cannot escape the fact that what they are currently claiming as historical data is materially different from what they previously published as the same historical data.

Your memory may be so short that you do not remember the previously published data, but mine is not.

If they previously said that a certain data set showed temperatures steadily declining from about 1965 to 200, and they now claim that the very same data shows temperatures steadily increasing in the same period, they were flatly lying one time or the other.

This is a fact that you cannot escape.
 
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eclipsenow

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Quote what they say all day. But you cannot escape the fact that what they are currently claiming as historical data is materially different from what they previously published as the same historical data.
No sunshine, what really bothers you here is that you cannot SHOW that what they previously claimed really was what they previously claimed.

Your memory may be so short that you do not remember the previously published data, but mine is not.
:doh: Yeah, says a man who reads Genesis 1 LITERALLY when it's one of the most complexly structured, symbolically styled pieces of symbolic literature on the planet. Dude, I'm having trouble trusting you when you cherrypick data. Forgive me for remaining sceptical of your wonderful charts, but I kinda need to see the SOURCE. You don't get to insult my memory over that like some kind of grumpy old man. You actually have to make the effort to actually find a verifiable SOURCE!

If they previously said that a certain data set showed temperatures steadily declining from about 1965 to 200, and they now claim that the very same data shows temperatures steadily increasing in the same period, they were flatly lying one time or the other.
For all I know you've just ripped those numbers out of a totally different report that measured totally different data sets. Until I see the ORIGINAL I have nothing to say to you.

But once again, we're only talking about your non-existent 'evidence' and you are STUDIOUSLY AVOIDING THE TOP 3 TEMPERATURE DATABASES ON THE PLANET!

This is a fact that you cannot escape.
The fact I cannot escape is that you have submitted no facts.
 
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Zanting

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GEOENGINEERING...do some research...find the facts...look at the science behind the claims before you discredit it's effects.

...People who do not look at both sides of an issue, who do not know where contrary evidence can be found are not speaking from a balanced perspective. They have a bias and are only looking at self-confirming evidence and everything else is unreliable, unconfirmed, unscientific, dreamt up, conjured up nonsense by ignorant people who don't know any better.

There sure are a lot of ignorant people in the world ignoring evidence.
 
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Biblewriter

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No sunshine, what really bothers you here is that you cannot SHOW that what they previously claimed really was what they previously claimed.


:doh: Yeah, says a man who reads Genesis 1 LITERALLY when it's one of the most complexly structured, symbolically styled pieces of symbolic literature on the planet. Dude, I'm having trouble trusting you when you cherrypick data. Forgive me for remaining sceptical of your wonderful charts, but I kinda need to see the SOURCE. You don't get to insult my memory over that like some kind of grumpy old man. You actually have to make the effort to actually find a verifiable SOURCE!


For all I know you've just ripped those numbers out of a totally different report that measured totally different data sets. Until I see the ORIGINAL I have nothing to say to you.

But once again, we're only talking about your non-existent 'evidence' and you are STUDIOUSLY AVOIDING THE TOP 3 TEMPERATURE DATABASES ON THE PLANET!


The fact I cannot escape is that you have submitted no facts.

This is flatly false. I gave you the original data, as published by NASA. I also demonstrated the irrationality of their excuse for taking down the data they previously published.

Everyone who actually looks at the published data critically (instead of simply believing everything they say) will remember that this is exactly what they posted just 13 years ago.

You can call me a liar, but that is all you can do. For there is absolutely no answer to this exposure of blatant fraud at the highest levels of the "climate science" community. And the clincher in the exposure is that the conflicting data came from the same office of the same "climate science" agency.

You accuse me of "STUDIOUSLY AVOIDING THE TOP 3 TEMPERATURE DATABASES ON THE PLANET!"

I answer that the information I have revealed, combined with the revelations in the climategate e-mails have rendered these databases irrelevant, for their keepers have been demonstrated to be willing to commit blatant fraud.
 
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eclipsenow

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GEOENGINEERING...do some research...find the facts...look at the science behind the claims before you discredit it's effects.

...People who do not look at both sides of an issue, who do not know where contrary evidence can be found are not speaking from a balanced perspective. They have a bias and are only looking at self-confirming evidence and everything else is unreliable, unconfirmed, unscientific, dreamt up, conjured up nonsense by ignorant people who don't know any better.

There sure are a lot of ignorant people in the world ignoring evidence.


Mate, my website has a number of pages on Geo-engineering but I'm against it until Global Warming has become an absolute emergency. Climate change is like pushing a car over a cliff... slow at first, but then accelerating out of control.
Climate Cliff | Eclipse Now

We need to treat Geo-engineering solutions with caution, because they cost so much money which should go into freeing us from the tyranny of fossil fuel dependence and preventing further warming, rather than trying to 'cure' the climate later.
Geo-engineering | Eclipse Now

But there are a number of interesting emergency 'cures' if we have to.
Olivine | Eclipse Now

White Skies | Eclipse Now

There's also Afforestation, such as irrigating the Sahara and Australian Outback, and this would bring extra benefits in fuel and fibre and food. But I'm still researching this one. (Looks like it would cost $1.5 trillion a year, or somewhere there abouts, to desalinate enough sea-water. But the flow on economic benefits would be enormous... and we'd be able to just let the slow process of fossil fuels running out solve our fossil fuel addiction!)
 
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eclipsenow

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This is flatly false. I gave you the original data, as published by NASA. I also demonstrated the irrationality of their excuse for taking down the data they previously published.

How do I know that? You didn't provide the original database or study. I don't know if you got a bit addled one afternoon and just copied the temperature averages for Texas or something. Get a grip.

Until you can supply the SOURCE for all your unbelievable extraordinary claims, you don't have an argument.

Everyone who actually looks at the published data critically (instead of simply believing everything they say) will remember that this is exactly what they posted just 13 years ago.

Source.

You can call me a liar, but that is all you can do. For there is absolutely no answer to this exposure of blatant fraud at the highest levels of the "climate science" community. And the clincher in the exposure is that the conflicting data came from the same office of the same "climate science" agency.
I'm not calling you a liar, I'm calling you a no-sourcer! Where's the SOURCE? Where's the proof you did not make a MISTAKE and quote the wrong FIGURES!

You accuse me of "STUDIOUSLY AVOIDING THE TOP 3 TEMPERATURE DATABASES ON THE PLANET!"

I answer that the information I have revealed,
FAIL! Why don't you submit Antarctica's temperatures instead of Texas? Why don't you show us where you got these figures FROM? SOURCE?

combined with the revelations in the climategate e-mails have rendered these databases irrelevant, for their keepers have been demonstrated to be willing to commit blatant fraud.
Oh wow. You really are a conspiracy theorist.

First, 'climategate' was a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Fox News propaganda stunt. NOTHING STUCK! You're in the league of Alien's at Area51. Which particular climategate 'email conspiracy' do you still have sympathy for? For ALL have been analysed. Please, do me a favour. Grow up a bit!
Climatic Research Unit email controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Secondly, I showed you the top 3 databases on the PLANET, and you refer to some figures you copied 13 years ago but cannot verify. Hmmm, top 3 databases on the planet, or some guy quoting some Dispensationalist, YEC climate-gate support quoting some rubbish out of context on the internet? Gee, that's a tough one.

But now look at all the other studies you have to debunk with 'figures you copied from somewhere'.
Records_of_Northern_Hemisphere_temperature_variation_during_the_last_1%2C300_years_%28NOAA%2C_Jansen_et_al%29.png
 
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Biblewriter

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How do I know that? You didn't provide the original database or study. I don't know if you got a bit addled one afternoon and just copied the temperature averages for Texas or something. Get a grip.

Until you can supply the SOURCE for all your unbelievable extraordinary claims, you don't have an argument.



Source.


I'm not calling you a liar, I'm calling you a no-sourcer! Where's the SOURCE? Where's the proof you did not make a MISTAKE and quote the wrong FIGURES!

You accuse me of "STUDIOUSLY AVOIDING THE TOP 3 TEMPERATURE DATABASES ON THE PLANET!"


FAIL! Why don't you submit Antarctica's temperatures instead of Texas? Why don't you show us where you got these figures FROM? SOURCE?

If you had bothered to read what I posted, instead of reacting "knee-jerk" style to it, you would realize that I very clearly gave the sources for the data, near the center of post #118 in this thread.

The rest of your response was only ranting, not really worth even answering, except to say that a "cospiracy theory" is a "theory" about the existence of a conspiracy. I am bot speaking of "theories" about the falsification of data. I am testifying that I have personal knowledge that the data was falsified, and personal knowledge of e-mails in which they discussed the falsifications.

I did not get any of my climategate information from Fox News. I got it by actually reading the leaked e-mails, which, by the way, were posted from a website in Russia, not by either Fox News or oil money. Did you read even one of them? Do you ever read any information posted by the scientists that do not believe your beloved theory? Or do you only read the alleged answers at your pro Anthropometric Global Warming website?

The leaked e-mails contained statements about concern that the actual data did not support their theories, and discussions of how they had "fudged" the data to hide that fact. They also contained incriminating statements about colluding to withhold information whose disclosure was required by law, and collusion to keep those who disagreed with them from ever receiving peer approval. They also contained explicit statements about collusion to not check the credentials of the "scientists" that signed their petition. I am not going to bother to go back and locate and cite all these, because you have already demonstrated that you will simply claim that all this cannot be proved.

And as I said before, every agency that "cleared" the posters of the climategate e-mails had a vested interest in their being "cleared." They were not not "cleared" by even one truly disinterested party.
 
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eclipsenow

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If you had bothered to read what I posted, instead of reacting "knee-jerk" style to it, you would realize that I very clearly gave the sources for the data, near the center of post #118 in this thread.

The current web address where I can verify this data is for real, and not just an accidental copy and paste from the wrong study? (Like the annual temperatures of Texas rather than the whole lower 48). It's like the online version of "gathering 2 or 3 witnesses."

Can we at least have some kind of verification that NASA actually committed this 'crime' of database editing, and that you didn't just copy and paste the wrong numbers? I really don't think this is unreasonable of me.

Your attempts to confront NASA about this discrepancy have explained what, exactly? Surely you wrote to them before lambasting their scientists reputations here? Or are you just content to gossip about and slander these scientists from a distance?

I got it by actually reading the leaked e-mails, which, by the way, were posted from a website in Russia, not by either Fox News or oil money. Did you read even one of them? Do you ever read any information posted by the scientists that do not believe your beloved theory? Or do you only read the alleged answers at your pro Anthropometric Global Warming website?
1. It's not 'my beloved theory' but the current consensus in peer-reviewed literature that obeys the laws of physics.
2. Yes, I read through the key accusations and noted that the key issues were all trumped up rubbish.

The leaked e-mails contained statements about concern that the actual data did not support their theories
Source please? You know, you really are the 'source king' at the moment. How about I just refer to you as SK from now... Source King! :doh:

, and discussions of how they had "fudged" the data to hide that fact.
Please.... you're not referring to "Hide the decline"? Or worse, "Nature trick?" Spare me from this cherry-picked hyperventilating conspiracy rubbish! EG: Don't you know that the bible says "There is no God". (Context: "The fool says in his heart there is no God.") Context is king. But, given that you are a literalist, I hardly find it surprising that you can't read in context. You weren't taken in by the selective quotes you were given on your denialist websites where you first became aware of this? You didn't bother reading in context? Honestly! :confused: :doh::confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tz8Ve6KE-Us#

They also contained incriminating statements about colluding to withhold information whose disclosure was required by law,
SK strikes again?


and collusion to keep those who disagreed with them from ever receiving peer approval.
No, 'collusion' to stop false data being published. But you knew that, didn't you.


They also contained explicit statements about collusion to not check the credentials of the "scientists" that signed their petition.
SK again?
I am not going to bother to go back and locate and cite all these, because you have already demonstrated that you will simply claim that all this cannot be proved.
I will CONFIRM that there are some sentences that, taken out of context, appear very concerning. For a simpleton who can't be bothered doing about half an hour of googling.

I know what you are referring to, but it's all been dealt with and shown to be quite innocent, normal, scientific peer-reviewed data and processes. If anything some of these emails show the frustration with people like you who cherry pick whatever contrary arguments they can, and simply ignore the peer-reviewed response, as you have here.

And as I said before, every agency that "cleared" the posters of the climategate e-mails had a vested interest in their being "cleared." They were not not "cleared" by even one truly disinterested party.
Are you kidding me?

Inquiries and reports

Eight committees investigated the allegations and published reports, finding no evidence of fraud or scientific misconduct.[15] The scientific consensus that global warming is occurring as a result of human activity remained unchanged by the end of the investigations.[17] However, the reports urged the scientists to avoid any such allegations in the future, and to regain public confidence following this media storm, with "more efforts than ever to make available all their supporting data - right down to the computer codes they use - to allow their findings to be properly verified". Climate scientists and organisations pledged to improve scientific research and collaboration with other researchers by improving data management and opening up access to data, and to honour any freedom of information requests that relate to climate science.[16]

..... / ....

Among the scientists whose emails were disclosed, the CRU's researchers said in a statement that the emails had been taken out of context and merely reflected an honest exchange of ideas. Michael Mann, director of Pennsylvania State University's Earth System Science Center, said that sceptics were "taking these words totally out of context to make something trivial appear nefarious",[18] and called the entire incident a careful, "high-level, orchestrated smear campaign to distract the public about the nature of the climate change problem."[63] Kevin E. Trenberth of the National Center for Atmospheric Research said that he was appalled at the release of the emails but thought that it might backfire against climate sceptics, as the messages would show "the integrity of scientists."[20] He also said that climate change sceptics had selectively quoted words and phrases out of context, and that the timing suggested an attempt to undermine talks at the December 2009 Copenhagen global climate summit.[64] Tom Wigley, a former director of the CRU and now head of the US National Center for Atmospheric Research, condemned the threats that he and other colleagues had received as "truly stomach-turning", and commented: "None of it affects the science one iota. Accusations of data distortion or faking are baseless. I can rebut and explain all of the apparently incriminating e-mails that I have looked at, but it is going to be very time consuming to do so."[50] In relation to the harassment that he and his colleagues were experiencing, he said: "This sort of thing has been going on at a much lower level for almost 20 years and there have been other outbursts of this sort of behaviour – criticism and abusive emails and things like that in the past. So this is a worse manifestation but it's happened before so it's not that surprising."[65]
Climatic Research Unit email controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Zanting

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Mate, my website has a number of pages on Geo-engineering but I'm against it until Global Warming has become an absolute emergency. Climate change is like pushing a car over a cliff... slow at first, but then accelerating out of control.
Climate Cliff | Eclipse Now

We need to treat Geo-engineering solutions with caution, because they cost so much money which should go into freeing us from the tyranny of fossil fuel dependence and preventing further warming, rather than trying to 'cure' the climate later.
Geo-engineering | Eclipse Now

But there are a number of interesting emergency 'cures' if we have to.
Olivine | Eclipse Now

White Skies | Eclipse Now

There's also Afforestation, such as irrigating the Sahara and Australian Outback, and this would bring extra benefits in fuel and fibre and food. But I'm still researching this one. (Looks like it would cost $1.5 trillion a year, or somewhere there abouts, to desalinate enough sea-water. But the flow on economic benefits would be enormous... and we'd be able to just let the slow process of fossil fuels running out solve our fossil fuel addiction!)

I was in Australia for a month and drove through the outback to Ayers Rock from Sydney in 2000...Australia is a beautiful country...Lots of semi arid land that indeed could be manipulated to prosper, bit by bit...keep your eye on the sky...
 
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eclipsenow

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I was in Australia for a month and drove through the outback to Ayers Rock from Sydney in 2000...Australia is a beautiful country...Lots of semi arid land that indeed could be manipulated to prosper, bit by bit...
Yes indeed.
keep your eye on the sky...
No need. Ice crystals in a contrail aren't going to hurt anyone. :doh:

Global warming, on the other hand, is an immense threat to tens of millions in the next decade, and possibly billions in the future.
 
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eclipsenow

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ptomwebster

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When melting Arctic ice changes the albedo of the North, and the extra heat rises up and messes with the jet-stream, it pushes snow streams around. In other words, a warming planet sometimes redistributes patches of cold.


:doh: So if it's warm it's global warming, if it's cold it's global warming, if it raining it's global warming. Have your cake and eat it too! What a load of crap. :doh:
 
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eclipsenow

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:doh: So if it's warm it's global warming, if it's cold it's global warming, if it raining it's global warming. Have your cake and eat it too! What a load of crap. :doh:

What, your gut told you this? Did you even read the science involved?
It's hardly surprising. I learned that a warming world can result in colder patches a decade ago when I learned about Antarctica.

Did you know Antarctica is both warming and cooling at the same time because of GLOBAL warming? The oceans are warmer because of the extra heat and energy moving into our atmosphere because of Co2. This warms the edges of Antarctica. But the extra energy has sped up the Antarctic vortex which makes that huge, permanent, circular storm swirl in ever tighter rings, contracting the weather in over Antarctica like when an ice skater pulls in their arms and spins faster. Instead of falling as rain over Adelaide, it falls as snow over central Antarctica.

So extra energy = faster spinning storm = more snow and colder bits of Antarctica, even as the world warms. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it crap.

This is what the peer-reviewed science says. If you disagree, you'll have to do better than just call it names. :thumbsup:
 
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ptomwebster

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What, your gut told you this? Did you even read the science involved?
...


I have read enough from the other side; I don't have time to read your junk. I'm not worried about it either way; I'm looking forward to God, the consuming fire, truly warming things up when He cleanses the earth. That will be pretty soon.



 
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eclipsenow

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I have read enough from the other side; I don't have time to read your junk. I'm not worried about it either way; I'm looking forward to God, the consuming fire, truly warming things up when He cleanses the earth. That will be pretty soon.
Does God returning soon let us ignore the book of James in the meantime? Do you just step over the poor and say "God bless you!" Do you just ignore the law, refuse to pay your taxes, and make a general nuisance of yourself and ignore your duties because Judgement is coming?

Because the theologians I read also agree that God is coming back one day to Judge. He will renovate the world. But that does not absolve us of our responsibilities until then.

See, He could come back in 2 seconds or 20,000 years. We just don't know. (And I've seen enough failed 'prophecy interpretations' in this forum to ignore any whacked-out end times 'predictions' you might make. Matthew 24 simply says we do NOT know, and CANNOT know).
 
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