Global Flood Question

[IchbinBerliner]

If there was a Global Flood, whree did all the water come from, and go to. The Ice caps dont hold enough water to flood hte entire planet.

 

[HRE]

That is most often explained by the idea that the earth was generally flat and the oceans were very shallow. And, oh yeah: "Goddidit."

 

[A4C]

A visual:

That, A4C, is an ancient riverbed. You can even see the sloping sides that were cut open when a canyon was carved across the old riverbed. Observe the huge boulders on the bottom. Now, a closer image:

See that, in just a few feet, you have a steady gradient from Large rocks to pebbles, and then finer grains. This is what we see in flood plains and riverbeds.

On the stratigraphic column as a whole, though, grain sizes can do this:

Medium
Very fine
Fine
Mesh
Congolmerate
Medium Fine
Microscopic
Congolmerate
Pre-Cambrian Metamorphic

With rapid changes and back-and-forth fluctuations between very fine grains, fine grains, coarse grains, and back to microscopic grains in only a hundred feet, something that simply does not occur during a flood.

Perhaps everybody (including geologists) need to look at this from the point of view of a world wide flood just not a local flood as we see today. Certainly there would be some correlation but there would also be some very important differences. One thing is that it should be noted that the water rose to a point that the highest parts on earth were covered and stayed that way for some time.
Then as the waters receeded the sediments that were only recently got laid down would now be subject to catastrophic erosion relocating over areas which also had got washed out. Now this element of the receeding water is a little different to the initial layering and could account for the apparent abnormalities that you refer to.

 

[spiced]

Perhaps if Evo geologists want an explanation for a flood model perhaps they can explain the mechanism of overthrusts and what causes it.


http://informationcentre.tripod.com/creationist_corner.html

Glarus Overthrust: At Glarus Overthrust of Switzerland, the arrangement of strata should proceed: Permian, Jurassic, Eocene. However, it occurs exactly the opposite. It is layered: Eocene, Jurassic, Permian. This suggests that, in this 21 mile formation, the top 3 layers completely flipped over. Evolutionists maintain that this is overthrust, however, one must wonder just what kind of activity could cause 21 miles of deep sediment to flip over, on to it's back, and end up so beautifully layered and appearing so undisturbed.
Heart Mountain and Sheep Mountain: At Heart Mountain and Sheep Mountain of Wyoming we see the impossible occur. These mountains are capped with Paleozoic limestone and are followed by Jurassic and Tertiary sediments. Not only is this once again completely backwards, but lieing directly beneath the Teritary sediments is more Paleozoic limestone!
Oops!: The year is 1970, in Guryul Ravine, Kashmir. Permian brachiopods are found mixed with lower triassic pelecypods. Though the two were supposed to be separated by millions of years, they were found in the same sediments. Evolutionists never attempted to explain this phenomenon. They simply ignored it. Funny how they ignore what they can't prove!

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

can you explain the four million layers of sediment found in the green river formation, the forty thousand layers found in sugietsu, and tens of thousands found in European lakes, and why the amounts of C14 in these layers correlate with the predicted C14 dates from radiaoactive decay, and why these dates match up with tree ring dating and why these dates also match up with ice core dating, buth in terms of numbers of ice core layers and also the trapped c14 content, yet again?

No, no I can't.

 

[A4C]

Glarus Overthrust: At Glarus Overthrust of Switzerland, the arrangement of strata should proceed: Permian, Jurassic, Eocene. However, it occurs exactly the opposite. It is layered: Eocene, Jurassic, Permian. This suggests that, in this 21 mile formation, the top 3 layers completely flipped over. Evolutionists maintain that this is overthrust, however, one must wonder just what kind of activity could cause 21 miles of deep sediment to flip over, on to it's back, and end up so beautifully layered and appearing so undisturbed.
Heart Mountain and Sheep Mountain: At Heart Mountain and Sheep Mountain of Wyoming we see the impossible occur. These mountains are capped with Paleozoic limestone and are followed by Jurassic and Tertiary sediments. Not only is this once again completely backwards, but lieing directly beneath the Teritary sediments is more Paleozoic limestone!
Oops!: The year is 1970, in Guryul Ravine, Kashmir. Permian brachiopods are found mixed with lower triassic pelecypods. Though the two were supposed to be separated by millions of years, they were found in the same sediments. Evolutionists never attempted to explain this phenomenon. They simply ignored it. Funny how they ignore what they can't prove!

A fine example of a ww flood and its aftermath - the relocation of sediment due to receeding waters.
Ohhhh How much head scratching has gone on in vain

 

[GoSeminoles!]

When energy companies beging spending billions of dollars searching for oil and gas using creationist geology rather than conventional geology, then creationists will have something scientific to crow about. When it's time to put money where the mouth is, energy companies go with proven science, not myth-based pseudo-science.

 

[A4C]

When energy companies beging spending billions of dollars searching for oil and gas using creationist geology rather than conventional geology, then creationists will have something scientific to crow about. When it's time to put money where the mouth is, energy companies go with proven science, not myth-based pseudo-science.

It is not unexpected that conditions that were laid down in a flood but interpreted by a group of people who dont believe in a flood will come to the same conclusion. This does not negate the fact that there was a flood and without it there would not have been the fossil fuel deposits that is so eagerly sort by those who blatantly disregard its origins.

 

[A4C]

No, no I can't.

I can

 

[HRE]

Perhaps everybody (including geologists) need to look at this from the point of view of a world wide flood just not a local flood as we see today. Certainly there would be some correlation but there would also be some very important differences. One thing is that it should be noted that the water rose to a point that the highest parts on earth were covered and stayed that way for some time.
Then as the waters receeded the sediments that were only recently got laid down would now be subject to catastrophic erosion relocating over areas which also had got washed out. Now this element of the receeding water is a little different to the initial layering and could account for the apparent abnormalities that you refer to.

That actually explained nothing at all, especially not how you can have a distinct fossilized river insider other layers cross-cut by a new canyon. You, in your 'explanation', are suggesting that sediments were built up, and then the top layers were shifted away. This has absolutely no relevance to my monster of a post pertaining the canyons, where the challenge lie. Please, explain that scenario (especially the footprints and cross-cutting) using a global flood, one piece at a time, like I did. This is what I ask of you.

Glarus Overthrust: At Glarus Overthrust of Switzerland, the arrangement of strata should proceed: Permian, Jurassic, Eocene. However, it occurs exactly the opposite. It is layered: Eocene, Jurassic, Permian. This suggests that, in this 21 mile formation, the top 3 layers completely flipped over. Evolutionists maintain that this is overthrust, however, one must wonder just what kind of activity could cause 21 miles of deep sediment to flip over, on to it's back, and end up so beautifully layered and appearing so undisturbed.

Here's an idea. After you visit someone's tripod site on this that provides literally no detail or possible explanation, why don't you just google the term? 'Glarus Overthurst' yielded this scientific paper on the orogeny, which explains it exactly as I expected: a fault thrust.

GLARUS OVERTHRUST
​

During Oligocene–Miocene continent-continent collision, passivemargin
​

sediments of the southern European shelf were involved in
​

deformation to form the Helvetic foreland fold-and-thrust belt. In the
​

Glarus Alps (Fig. 1), Permian Verrucano red beds (​

​

d18O 5 10‰) were
​

thrust northward over Mesozoic carbonates (​

​

d18O 5 25‰) and Tertiary
​

flysch series (​

​

d18O 5 19‰). The thrust fault is continuously lined by
​

an enigmatic 1–5-m-thick layer of Lochseitenkalk mylonite (Schmid,
​

1975). Metamorphism ranges from anchizone in the north and in the
​

footwall flysch to lower greenschist facies in the south and in the Verrucano
​

hanging wall (Rahn et al., 1995). The anchizone-epizone boundary
​

(300​

​

6 30 8C isograd) is offset along the Glarus thrust by ;2 km
​

to the north (Rahn et al., 1995) as the result of post–peak metamorphic
​

thrusting between 25 and 20 Ma (Hunziker et al., 1986).
​

Here is an example image of a severe fault thrust, similar what we observe in the entirety of the Alps (where the Glarus Overthrust is found). Granted, it isn't exactly the same, but I'm working with paint here, not Photoshop. Your site must have simply forgot to mention the enormous fault scarp and fault line easily visible to even airplanes at the location. Innocent mistake, huh?

As for the mechanisms of overthrusts...Google, anyone? Severe fault thrusts along plate boundaries cause overthrusts. Do you understand that we can actively observe these happening and decaying all over the Western United States?

Heart Mountain and Sheep Mountain: At Heart Mountain and Sheep Mountain of Wyoming we see the impossible occur. These mountains are capped with Paleozoic limestone and are followed by Jurassic and Tertiary sediments. Not only is this once again completely backwards, but lieing directly beneath the Teritary sediments is more Paleozoic limestone!

Again...you expend the effort to find these sites, why don't you expend the effort to even see if there is an explanation? Again, someone with a basic knowledge of geology can read that description and assertain what is occurring. Sheep Mountain is part of the Laramide orogeny, a fault line that is actively making new overthrusts. When an overthrust occurs, you get both an anticline and a sincline. Sheep Mountain is a textbook example of a fault-thrust anticline. Heart Mountain is very similar.

Look at that beautiful anticline.

http://www3.uakron.edu/geology/grad/guianen/proposal.pdfhttp://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2003AM/finalprogram/abstract_61247.htm

Oops!: The year is 1970, in Guryul Ravine, Kashmir. Permian brachiopods are found mixed with lower triassic pelecypods. Though the two were supposed to be separated by millions of years, they were found in the same sediments. Evolutionists never attempted to explain this phenomenon. They simply ignored it. Funny how they ignore what they can't prove!

That assertion is actually very offensive. Ignored it because they can't explain it? How about the author was too much of a self-pluming **** to even venture and see if there was an explanation. A simple Google search turns up plenty of research.

It might actually help to know some history, too. The Permian and Triassic periods were directly adjacent to each other, not millions of years apart. The Guryul Ravine is such a spectacular find because it gives us a complete lithography between the two periods in a region that experienced slower change. While we may put a date on the P-T boundary, it does not mean that the environmental changes show up everywhere in the world at the same time. Instead, the Guryul Ravine is exactly what geologists and paleontologists hoped to see for decades, and it is now an area of intense study.

"Though the two were supposed to be separated by millions of years"...Ha. Blatant, outstanding willful ignorance.

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/aug252002/498.pdf

I can

Then I would refer you back to my challenge:

Please, explain that scenario (especially the footprints and cross-cutting) using a global flood, one piece at a time, like I did. This is what I ask of you.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Hm. Detailed, information-filled posts are dismissed with hypotheticals and "what-ifs" and "hm, I think this is so"s.


Color me 0% surprised...

 

[A4C]

Please, explain that scenario (especially the footprints and cross-cutting) using a global flood, one piece at a time, like I did. This is what I ask of you.

Without the information that I asked for I would only be quessing about the footprints you are talking about. Please give me full details of where they were found and what is thought to have made them Were they found under rocks or what? Do you want me to give you an informed opinion or just a quess?
What cross cutting?

I am not prepared to continually repeat myself in explaining that receeding flood waters account for many of the irregularities you see in the strata formations. When you consider the amount of water from thousands of square miles of flooded area flowing in particular areas of course you are going to get strata disturbances. You just have to imagine the catastrophic effect that would arise from breaching a huge dam and multiply that effect hundreds of times and to apply it to still wet sediment layers. Then add to this the added effect of siesmic activity causing deformations of still soft sediment layers which later solidify into the formations we see today.
Please take the above as a general explanation from a WW Flood perspective of rock formations and consider that as such it is a debunking of conventional geological explanations based on the assumption of millions of years in the formation

 

[HRE]

Without the information that I asked for I would only be quessing about the footprints you are talking about. Please give me full details of where they were found and what is thought to have made them Were they found under rocks or what? Do you want me to give you an informed opinion or just a quess?

I said, concerning the footprints, these facts:
Now, to add to the conundrum, we have three different types of fossils found in the sandstones and shales on the distinct, observable riverbanks.

That means, A4C, that the banks are visible inside the stone, and the footprints are sandwhiched between the fossilized river (conglomerate) and the surrounding sandstone, as such:

|Sandstone|Footprints|Conglomerate, river-bed shaped rock|

They were found in, not under or over, but in the rocks.

As to the nature of the prints, I said:

" One final thing. No more (for now), I promise.

The extrapolation on the footprints is extreme at best, and highly un-scientific, since no images of the prints nor the fossilized environment were given. If you intend to interpret it otherwise, feel free to call the prints whatever you will, as long as they are three separate types of prints."

You can call them a squirrel, a deer, and a raccoon for all I care, as long as they are all different.

What cross cutting?

Are you serious? The river cross-cutting the strata. The canyon cross-cutting the river. Hint: go to page 2.

(Head) --> (Wall)

 

[A4C]

Footprints:
Footprints could be made in the soft ground (mud) during any stage of the flood at any height (strata level) as the flood waters rose. (you dont have to walk under water when it rains heavy to make footprints in the ground) Sediment could then be laid down covering these footprints. More and more sediment layers could be laid on top of those as further sediment settled. After the flood waters stopped rising and then after a period the waters begin to receed removig some of the settled sediment layers and leaving other to fossilise as they were laid in the rising water. Now please dont tell me that footprints between layers is a mystery because as far as a flood is concerned it is as natural a thing as the water itself.
What is intriguing though is if you can tell me how footprints could be found between layers of rock that took millions of years to happen and how did the footprints appear in solid rock or layers of sediment at the bottom of oceans ( isn't that where the mountains were supposed to be pushed up from).

Cross cutting
There could always be a situation whereby a river took a particular course prior to a flood but because of sediment build up patterns and perhaps other considerations the receeding waters after the flood do not necessarilly take the same course as the original water. Inevitably the new course will cut across the old as it carves its path through the sediment layers- hence the rock formations that you see today

 

[HRE]

And the cross-cutting A4C? I want a detailed answer, like the kind of step by step thing I gave you.

and how did the footprints appear in solid rock or layers of sediment at the bottom of oceans ( isn't that where the mountains were supposed to be pushed up from).

Say what?

 

[HRE]

Footprints that we find are caused by dinosaurs stepping in mud that later hardens (bakes) before it fills in. The global deluge you're talking about would leave footprints in soft mud that would immediately be washed away before filling or hardening.

 

[A4C]

Footprints that we find are caused by dinosaurs stepping in mud that later hardens (bakes) before it fills in.

But would not the footprints have to be in mud for at least thousands of years until the next strata formed (according to the way I understand what old earthers think) If so do you realy think they would be there all that time. Usually footprints that I am familiar with wouldn't oulast the next downpour.

The global deluge you're talking about would leave footprints in soft mud that would immediately be washed away before filling or hardening.

On the contrary the building up of flood waters in some areas could be quite a gentle process (much like filling up bath tub from a shower rose) However surrounding water movements could mix in sediments which settled in the footprints and the area . Finally the footprints could be under many layers of sediment and be uneffected by the process.

My point is that footprints are much more likely to survive fossilisation when coverage occurs quickly (say only days after they were put down) than they are if they had to withstand thousands (if not millions) of years facing natural elements

 

[spiced]

interesting about footprints, just watched "Time team" about Neolithic site on the River Severn coast in Wales. footprints in the mud from that period, but under water at every tide.
however also got a brief snippet from "discovery" about Chixulub crater and metoers, such was th impact that it created a mega tsunami, now the thing was this that they cited a "40Km high tsunami" which would have engulfed "nearly all the world" (paraphrase)from this impact.
Now correct me if I`m wrong but any evidence for this water based catastrophe in the geological column?

 

[Jet Black]

But would not the footprints have to be in mud for at least thousands of years until the next strata formed (according to the way I understand what old earthers think)

you have just elegantly demonstrated that you do not understand the way old earthers think. This is why you should go and learn some geology before you pretend you have an answer to everything.

 

[HRE]

But would not the footprints have to be in mud for at least thousands of years until the next strata formed (according to the way I understand what old earthers think) If so do you realy think they would be there all that time. Usually footprints that I am familiar with wouldn't oulast the next downpour.

Sediments take a variable amount of time to form, depending on the type. Footprints in baked mud are often simply covered by layers of dust during a temporary drought, later solidifying. We observe this happening in our own time.

On the contrary the building up of flood waters in some areas could be quite a gentle process (much like filling up bath tub from a shower rose) However surrounding water movements could mix in sediments which settled in the footprints and the area . Finally the footprints could be under many layers of sediment and be uneffected by the process.

If you have footprints made in an liquid environment, they quickly lose their shape. If the ground had almost any water content, they would not form at all. If the layers on top were liquid, they would not form. We can observe this in our own time.

My point is that footprints are much more likely to survive fossilisation when coverage occurs quickly (say only days after they were put down) than they are if they had to withstand thousands (if not millions) of years facing natural elements

Agreed. Paleontologists do not suggest that footprints were usually sitting in the open elements for any great length of time. We find very few exposed, and those appear to be exceptions rather than the standard.

Now for the cross-cutting and stratification?

interesting about footprints, just watched "Time team" about Neolithic site on the River Severn coast in Wales. footprints in the mud from that period, but under water at every tide.
however also got a brief snippet from "discovery" about Chixulub crater and metoers, such was th impact that it created a mega tsunami, now the thing was this that they cited a "40Km high tsunami" which would have engulfed "nearly all the world" (paraphrase)from this impact.
Now correct me if I`m wrong but any evidence for this water based catastrophe in the geological column?

1. Sources?
2. No evidence for such a wave that I know of. Sources would help, though.