GK Chesterton on Protestant Logic

[tulc]

Thank you so much.

That was incredible.

I didn't even know he had ever been recorded!

Thanks again.

No problem bro.
tulc(just thought you'd be interested)

 

[sempervirens]

From the June 10th 1916 NYT - Shaw and Chesterton as cowboys! sadly this film has been lost.

Barrie Conceit for Charity.One of the features of yesterday's matinee at the London Coliseum in behalf of the War Hospital charity was a film play by J. M. Barrie, entitled, "How Men Love." It has four characters, all cowboys, played by G. B. Shaw, G. K. Chesterton, William Archer and Lord Howard de Walden. They have numerous .adventures. Shaw is seen dashing over a cliff on a motorcycle. Walden and Archer are 'being lowered over a cliff by means of a rope held by Chesterton, who, with horrified face, finds his strength unequal to the task and is compelled to let go. The quartet also are seen chasing horses about a field, wading ashore from a boat etc. The matinee realized about $15.000.

 

[simonthezealot]

Hermas


"Therefore shall you [Hermas] write two little books and send one to Clement [Bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty" (The Shepherd 2:4:3 [A.D. 80]).

Why is it his duty?

This goes on to say this...
"But when I finish all the words, all the elect will then become acquainted with them through you. You will write therefore two books, and you will send the one to Clemens and the other to Grapte. And Clemens will send his to foreign countries, for permission has been granted to him to do so. And Grapte will admonish the widows and the orphans. But you will read the words in this city, along with the presbyters who preside over the Church.

 

[simonthezealot]

Ignatius of Antioch

"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).

Holds the presidency of what?
In force?

I've already shown you your translation was inaccurate and even taking it like it is that says nothing of the UNIVERSAL authority over the church

and that 2nd quote? not sure what you think you see there, everyone knows Rome was one of the larger more advanced areas in the development of Christianity but again nothing you quote shows the authority they NOW claim.

 

[racer]

As Catholics, that is our view.

I guess you didn't bother reading the profile of the person to whom you are responding here. I believe he/she is Catholic . . . .

 

[racer]

The quote he brought up is meaningless.

Meaningless to you . . . .

 

[chestertonrules]

This goes on to say this...
"But when I finish all the words, all the elect will then become acquainted with them through you. You will write therefore two books, and you will send the one to Clemens and the other to Grapte. And Clemens will send his to foreign countries, for permission has been granted to him to do so. And Grapte will admonish the widows and the orphans. But you will read the words in this city, along with the presbyters who preside over the Church.

Exactly, granted by Jesus when he instructed Peter to feed his sheep.

 

[chestertonrules]

I guess you didn't bother reading the profile of the person to whom you are responding here. I believe he/she is Catholic . . . .

Clearly.

That is why I said this is OUR view.

 

[chestertonrules]

I've already shown you your translation was inaccurate and even taking it like it is that says nothing of the UNIVERSAL authority over the church

and that 2nd quote? not sure what you think you see there, everyone knows Rome was one of the larger more advanced areas in the development of Christianity but again nothing you quote shows the authority they NOW claim.

You did no such thing.

The translations had the same meaning.


You are trying to find a break in the armor, but you are failing.


I have made the case, and you have offered nothing to rebut the quotes I have provided.

Unless you can come up with something substantial, I'll assume you have given up.

 

[simonthezealot]

Dionysius of Corinth


"For from the beginning it has been your custom to do good to all the brethren in various ways and to send contributions to all the churches in every city. . . . This custom your blessed Bishop Soter has not only preserved, but is augmenting, by furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints and by urging with consoling words, as a loving father his children, the brethren who are journeying" (Letter to Pope Soter in Eusebius, Church History 4:23:9 [A.D. 170]).

You missed this middle part where it clearly shows dionysus is COMMENDING, it is he who presides over soter.....

Look

“For from the beginning it has been your practice to do good to all the brethren in various ways, and to send contributions to many churches in every city. Thus relieving the want of the needy, and making provision for the brethren in the mines by the gifts which you have sent from the beginning, you Romans keep up the hereditary customs of the Romans, which your blessed bishop Soter has not only maintained, .....

 

[simonthezealot]

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the Churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, that Church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3, 3, 1-2, c. AD 190

No further explanation needed!

This is particularly important. Notice that Irenaues said that Rome has authority, undoubtedly a controversial view but he certainly felt that way as did others at that time, but look at the reason why. Not because Peter had a specific successor but their adherence to the Apostles teachings(which we also believe as well, this is preserved in the Bible). Notice Peter AND Paul .

 

[Sojourner<><]

I don't think you are very familiar with what actually happened during the inquisitions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that many unbelievers were killed, because, at the time it was believed by the Church that it was just to kill in order to save souls. What more is there to understand?

That being a given, Catholics, like all other humans, are sinners.

For sure. But since the authority of the church resides in its belief of an unbroken apostolic succession, musn't the office of apostle be more than just a title? It seems to me that a true apostle must know the Lord, and if he knows the Lord, how could he possibly believe or pursue such a doctrine without sensing that something was wrong?

 

[chestertonrules]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that many unbelievers were killed, because, at the time it was believed by the Church that it was just to kill in order to save souls. What more is there to understand?



For sure. But since the authority of the church resides in its belief of an unbroken apostolic succession, musn't the office of apostle be more than just a title? It seems to me that a true apostle must know the Lord, and if he knows the Lord, how could he possibly believe or pursue such a doctrine without sensing that something was wrong?

Peter denied Jesus three times.

All the apostles fled during the crucifixion at one point.

Peter cut off the guard's ear in the garden.

I don't think apostolic succession makes a priest less likely to sin.


A point you need to consider about the inquisitions is that they were carried out by national governments, often with the blessing of the local church, but they were not commanded by Rome.

 

[chestertonrules]

This is particularly important. Notice that Irenaues said that Rome has authority, undoubtedly a controversial view but he certainly felt that way as did others at that time, but look at the reason why. Not because Peter had a specific successor but their adherence to the Apostles teachings(which we also believe as well, this is preserved in the Bible). Notice Peter AND Paul .

You are exhibiting willful blindness!

For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."




For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world;

 

[chestertonrules]

Dionysius of Corinth


"For from the beginning it has been your custom to do good to all the brethren in various ways and to send contributions to all the churches in every city. . . . This custom your blessed Bishop Soter has not only preserved, but is augmenting, by furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints and by urging with consoling words, as a loving father his children, the brethren who are journeying" (Letter to Pope Soter in Eusebius, Church History 4:23:9 [A.D. 170]).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You are exhibiting willful blindness!

For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."

For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world;

I have received the Testimony of Jesus and I shake the dust off my feet for those who do not accept it.

http://christianforums.com/t7164949-do-not-weep-the-great-city.html#post46402357

Mark 6:11 And who soever should not be receiving ye, nor should be hearing of-ye, departing thence, shake off the dust/coun <5522> the underneath thine feet into a testimony to-them. Amen I say unto ye, it shall be more tolerable to-Sodom or Gomorrha in a day of judgment, the city, that.

Luke 19:41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments/eklausen <2799> (5656) on Her,

Revelation 18:19 And they had-cast dust/coun <5522> upon their heads, and cried-out, lamenting/klaionteV <2799> (5723) and mourning, saying, "woe! woe! the City, the great, in which are-rich all those having ships in the sea out of her preciousness! that one hour was desolated. [#5522 used only in Mark 6:11]

 

[chestertonrules]

I have received the Testimony of Jesus and I shake the dust off my feet for those who do not accept it.


From whom did you receive it?

Papias
"Papias [A.D. 120], who is now mentioned by us, affirms that he received the sayings of the apostles from those who accompanied them, and he, moreover, asserts that he heard in person Aristion and the presbyter John. Accordingly, he mentions them frequently by name, and in his writings gives their traditions [concerning Jesus]. . . . [There are] other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from tradition" (fragment in Eusebius, Church History 3:39 [A.D. 312]).

Eusebius of Caesarea
"At that time [A.D. 150] there flourished in the Church Hegesippus, whom we know from what has gone before, and Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, and another bishop, Pinytus of Crete, and besides these, Philip, and Apollinarius, and Melito, and Musanus, and Modestus, and, finally, Irenaeus. From them has come down to us in writing, the sound and orthodox faith received from tradition" (Church History 4:21).

Irenaeus
"As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same" (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).

"That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. . . . What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?" (ibid., 3:4:1).

...

"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times—men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles.

"With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree—that is, all the faithful in the whole world—and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:1–2).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

From whom did you receive it?

What Testimony did Jesus give to the Apostles? Did you even read those verses?
Who are these Jesus is talking to

Mark 6:11 And who soever should not be receiving ye, nor should be hearing of-ye, departing thence, shake off the dust/coun <5522> the underneath thine feet into a testimony to-them. Amen I say unto ye, it shall be more tolerable to-Sodom or Gomorrha in a day of judgment, the city, that.

 

[chestertonrules]

What Testimony did Jesus give to the Apostles? Did you even read those verses?
Who are these Jesus is talking to

Mark 6:11 And who soever should not be receiving ye, nor should be hearing of-ye, departing thence, shake off the dust/coun <5522> the underneath thine feet into a testimony to-them. Amen I say unto ye, it shall be more tolerable to-Sodom or Gomorrha in a day of judgment, the city, that.

Jesus also said:

He that rejects you, rejects me.

Have you rejected those sent by Jesus?


Papias
"Papias [A.D. 120], who is now mentioned by us, affirms that he received the sayings of the apostles from those who accompanied them, and he, moreover, asserts that he heard in person Aristion and the presbyter John. Accordingly, he mentions them frequently by name, and in his writings gives their traditions [concerning Jesus]. . . . [There are] other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from tradition" (fragment in Eusebius, Church History 3:39 [A.D. 312]).

Eusebius of Caesarea
"At that time [A.D. 150] there flourished in the Church Hegesippus, whom we know from what has gone before, and Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, and another bishop, Pinytus of Crete, and besides these, Philip, and Apollinarius, and Melito, and Musanus, and Modestus, and, finally, Irenaeus. From them has come down to us in writing, the sound and orthodox faith received from tradition" (Church History 4:21).

Irenaeus
"As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same" (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).

"That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. . . . What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?" (ibid., 3:4:1).

...

"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times&#8212;men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles.

"With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree&#8212;that is, all the faithful in the whole world&#8212;and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:1&#8211;2).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus also said:

He that rejects you, rejects me.

Have you rejected those sent by Jesus?

Certainly not, though their are "SOME" who have rejected me and others, and the testimony of the Apostles.

Matt 10:23 "Whenever yet they may be chasing/persecuting ye in the city, this, be fleeing into the other.
For Amen I am saying to ye, not no ye should be finishing the cities of the Israel till ever may be coming/elqh <2064> (5632) the Son of the Man".

2 Thessalonians 1:10 when He may be coming/elqh <2064> (5632) to be glorified in His saints, and to be marvelled in all those having Faith that was believed the Testimony of us upon ye in the Day, that