GK Chesterton on Protestant Logic

[chestertonrules]

If that isn't the pot calling the kettle.
Just another Roman papacy propaganda thread anyway. Bye Bye.

LLOJ [hops off another eternal "merry-go-round"]

Not at all.

I provided quotes that support my position.

He claims to be able to provide quotes that don't support my position.(which he didn't do) He has no quotes which contradict my position.

 

[chestertonrules]

While I enjoy Chesterton, especially his wit, I don't think this is one of his best. It is based on there being an intrinsic logic to the procession that is either accepted in totality or rejected in totality. Human nature is never so logical. We pick and choose what fancies us every day of our lives and few of us care a fig for how logical our choices are within someone elses' framework.

As Catholics, that is our view.

We see the whole procession as logical. It fits together. Trying to pry the scriptures from the tradition, authority, liturgy, etc. seems illogical.

I can see how this would not be the intuitive view, however, if you maintained sola scriptura.(at least not until you had thoroughly studied the origins of the new testament!)

Best Regards

 

[chestertonrules]

He is sticking to the facts. Do you dispute his citation of Dionysius?

Not at all. However, it has nothing to do with the central point.

Clement spoke with authority on one central point. The epistle contained about 50 chapters. The issue at hand was likely quickly resolved. The advise he gave in the other 49 chapters would have been much more meaningful over the long term.

The quote he brought up is meaningless.

 

[Sojourner<><]

Squashing things is usually bad, especially parades because everyone loves 'em, so I won't have anything to do with that bit of it.

My question to Chesterton would be: how is it not reasonable to judge the value of a teacher by how he practices what he preaches?

 

[chestertonrules]

I'll talk slower...
there is nothing for 170 years after Christ suggesting universal authority for Rome.

Your asking me to contradict something that is
non-existant

Hermas


"Therefore shall you [Hermas] write two little books and send one to Clement [Bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty" (The Shepherd 2:4:3 [A.D. 80]).

Why is it his duty?

Ignatius of Antioch


"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).

Holds the presidency of what?
In force?

Dionysius of Corinth


"For from the beginning it has been your custom to do good to all the brethren in various ways and to send contributions to all the churches in every city. . . . This custom your blessed Bishop Soter has not only preserved, but is augmenting, by furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints and by urging with consoling words, as a loving father his children, the brethren who are journeying" (Letter to Pope Soter in Eusebius, Church History 4:23:9 [A.D. 170]).

"Today we have observed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your letter [Pope Soter]. Whenever we do read it [in church], we shall be able to profit thereby, as also we do when we read the earlier letter written to us by Clement" (ibid., 4:23:11).

A loving father his children? ie. all the churches in every city?

Why is he comparing Soter to Clement?

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the Churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, that Church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3, 3, 1-2, c. AD 190

No further explanation needed!

 

[chestertonrules]

Squashing things is usually bad, especially parades because everyone loves 'em, so I won't have anything to do with that bit of it.

My question to Chesterton would be: how is it not reasonable to judge the value of a teacher by how he practices what he preaches?

That is very reasonable.

Can you name a single entity, other than perhaps the US government, that has done more for the least of these than the Catholic Church?

Go to any desolate, impoverished hell hole in the world and you will find Catholics working there to spread the love of Christ.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That is very reasonable.

Can you name a single entity, other than perhaps the US government, that has done more for the least of these than the Catholic Church?

Go to any desolate, impoverished hell hole in the world and you will find Catholics working there to spread the love of Christ.

You mean there are no non-RC Christians working with the poor?

 

[chestertonrules]

You mean there are no non-RC Christians working with the poor?

Of course not.

Followers of Christ need not be Catholic.

I was one for four decades before finding the fullness of truth which is the Catholic Church.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Of course not.

Followers of Christ need not be Catholic.

I was one for four decades before finding the fullness of truth which is the Catholic Church.

Ok. Bye Bye.

1 corin 11:26 For as often ever ye may be eating the bread, this, and the drink-cup ye may be drinking, the death of the Lord ye are according-messaging/kataggellete <2605> (5719) until which ever He may be coming/elqh <2064> (5632)

Reve 19:11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it/him being called Faithful and True and in justice He is judging and is battling.

http://christianforums.com/t6920830&page=4
question-for-roman-catholics-only-on-parousia

 

[Sojourner<><]

Of course not.

Followers of Christ need not be Catholic.

I was one for four decades before finding the fullness of truth which is the Catholic Church.

Don't mean to derail you so I'll keep my response short. Ok, so there may be some mysteries in the Catholic traditions, but how can we say that it is the full truth when the full truth has yet to be revealed?

 

[chestertonrules]

Don't mean to derail you so I'll keep my response short. Ok, so there may be some mysteries in the Catholic traditions, but how can we say that it is the full truth when the full truth has yet to be revealed?

You might have me there!

Let me post something from the Catechism which I believe makes a valid case for my position, much better than I did!

God has said everything in his Word


65 "In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son."[26] Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father's one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2:
In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behaviour but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.[27] There will be no further Revelation


66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."[28] Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries. 67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

 

[Sojourner<><]

You might have me there!

Let me post something from the Catechism which I believe makes a valid case for my position, much better than I did!

God has said everything in his Word


65 "In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son."[26] Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father's one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2:
In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behaviour but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.[27] There will be no further Revelation


66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."[28] Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries. 67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

So would you say that the fullness of the truth refers to the fullness of the completed revelation which you believe resides in the scriptures and in Catholic tradition?

If only the church's leadership had acted in more accordance with the teachings of the gospel during the inquisition times, I would have been more inclined to accept the authority of its teachings.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There will be no further Revelation


66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away;

That is the way I read the BIBLE>

Colo 2:14 Out-rubbing/ex-aleiyaV <1813> (5660) the down/kaq <2596> over/upenantion <5227 us handwriting/ceiro-grafon <5498> to the decrees/dogmasin <1378> , which was hostile to us, and it has taken/hrken <142> out of the midst toward-nailing it to the stauros/stake/stave

Revelation 21:4 and the God shall be out-rubbing/ex-aleiyei <1813> (5692) every tear/dakruon <1144> out of their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, that the former-things pass away/aphlqon <565> (5627).'

 

[chestertonrules]

So would you say that the fullness of the truth refers to the fullness of the completed revelation which you believe resides in the scriptures and in Catholic tradition?

If only the church's leadership had acted in more accordance with the teachings of the gospel during the inquisition times, I would have been more inclined to accept the authority of its teachings.

I don't think you are very familiar with what actually happened during the inquisitions.


That being a given, Catholics, like all other humans, are sinners.

 

[chestertonrules]

So would you say that the fullness of the truth refers to the fullness of the completed revelation which you believe resides in the scriptures and in Catholic tradition?

If only the church's leadership had acted in more accordance with the teachings of the gospel during the inquisition times, I would have been more inclined to accept the authority of its teachings.

(((So would you say that the fullness of the truth refers to the fullness of the completed revelation which you believe resides in the scriptures and in Catholic tradition?))

Yes.

For the record, I am a convert to Catholicism.

I was born again in a Baptist Church, attended a nondenominational Charismatic Church for most of my elementary school years, then we settled in a small Methodist Church which was basically a bible Church. I considered myself a Methodist for most of my adult life, although I had differences with the national Church leadership.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

(((So would you say that the fullness of the truth refers to the fullness of the completed revelation which you believe resides in the scriptures and in Catholic tradition?))

Yes.

As a RC you have to answer yes

 

[chestertonrules]

As a RC you have to answer yes

As a convert, I didn't have to choose the RC!

 

[tulc]

Seen this?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zJjtJrvo87I
tulc(he was an amazing author)

 

[chestertonrules]

Seen this?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zJjtJrvo87I
tulc(he was an amazing author)

Thank you so much.

That was incredible.

I didn't even know he had ever been recorded!

Thanks again.

 

[chestertonrules]

Seen this?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zJjtJrvo87I
tulc(he was an amazing author)

In case you are interested, the Chesterton society presents GK Chesterton, the Apostle of Common Sense every Sunday night at 8:00 Central time on EWTN.

Dale Ahlquist discusses one of Chesterton's works and an actor who looks very similar to Chesterton reads some of the quotes.

It's very well done.

Thanks again for the You tube video.