getting up and screaming in church

WalksWithChrist · Jan 4, 2009

I have seen this sort of thing. Also seem plenty of speaking in tongues.

Personally, I feel like having some sort of order in worship is important. I know some people really get into the spirit (in all meanings of that word!) of things and get carried away.

I would call in overindulgence. Nothing much more than that really.

Certainly not demonic.

rob64 · Jan 4, 2009

one11 said:
FYI 2 scripture is?

ok, now that YOU mentioned it, it was right after he addressed....of all things...... women being silent in church !!!

1st Corinthians 14:34&35
"Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive as the law also says.
And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

1st. Corinthians: 14:40
"Let all things be done decently and in order"

Desperaux · Jan 4, 2009

Imana said:
You know, in the OT. David danced before the glory of God too. His wife, Michal, had the same attitude some have here regarding dancing and shouting and yelling, ect, ect in the middle of church service. The bible says she despised him and said "How the kind distinguished himself today?"

That's true. God even cursed Michal for her disdain of David's exuberance. He closed up her womb.

David teaches us NOWHERE in any of his writings that we are NOT to dance and shout before our King.

one11 · Jan 4, 2009

rob64 said:
ok, now that YOU mentioned it, it was right after he addressed....of all things...... women being silent in church !!!

1st Corinthians 14:34&35
"Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive as the law also says.
And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

1st. Corinthians: 14:40
"Let all things be done decently and in order"

1 Corinthians
Orderly Worship

26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. 29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.
39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

_________________________________________________________

Churches of today are rarely set up like this in regards to prophecy except for some charismatic churches and non-denominational. I'd say church services of today hardly resemble the above at all. Maybe Messianic Jews and Amish follow the above? I cannot say so as I've never been to any of their meetings.

Not to mention women have the gift of prophesy too.

1 Corinthians Here:

5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

The day of Pentecost also and other days mens eyes were opened that women could prophesy too in the NT. What Paul is saying is not for everyone to speak at once. That would be useless as no one would hear.

p.s. I'm glad I don't live in Mississippi because first Rob you quote scripture out of context, then I ask YOU for scripture, you can't provide it, then I give you the scripture (not taken out of context) and then you complain. I don't think I could on either end with you. I offer you the scripture you don't even know, then complain because a woman showed it you? That is logical. :shakes head:

christianmomof3 · Jan 4, 2009

Mrs Butterworth said:
In the past I have been to a few churches where, for no particular reason, someone from the congregation will get up, scream, and then run in the isles between the seats. This can happen at any point during the service and, to say the least, can be quite disruptive (and it's weird).

When I ask about this behavior the answer is always something like " well, when the Holy Spirit gets a hold of someone, they just do that". With this reasoning, they allow the behavior in the church.

I can't find anything in the bible that mentions this behavior and/or states that this behavior is acceptable during a service. Because this behavior is disruptive (not to mention weird) and does not work to edify others, I see it as something that should not be allowed.

What is your opinion?

If that happened, I would get up too. And walk quickly out of the door, and not return.

Mrs Butterworth · Jan 4, 2009

Thank you Imana (perhaps that's not spelled right, but you know who you are) and One11 for your differing opinions, and I thank the rest of you for your opinions as well.

Just to clarify things, the behavior I was questioning was getting up, at any point in the service,(worship, preaching, announcements, or prayer) screaming, and running the isles. Sometimes the individual doing this would have a possessed look in his/her eyes (like in the movies) and sometimes not. Sometimes the motivation for their behavior was clear, it was a "look at me" thing, sometimes it was not.

The behavior I am questioning is not the boisterous whooping and hollering that accompanies many charismatic worship services. Nor is it the outbursts spoken in agreement with a preacher during a sermon or prayer (for example). The latter I don't have a problem with, provided one is still polite, and the outburst is not accompanied with a large spray of spit or anything like that.
I used to live in New Orleans where yelling stuff out in service was commonplace. It made church rather entertaining and yet there was still a sense of order.

furthermore, while order is important, that word is often used by religious traditionalists who want to dampen the spirit in a way that, bibcally speakig, they shouldn't. If the bible says that ------ should be allowed then it should be allowed. The question then remains, should getting up and screaming (as I have defined it) be allowed? I don't see any biblical justification for it but do I see a lot of biblical justification for not allowing it.

On a side note (and perhaps this deserves it's own thread) the word "Weird" in reference to church behavior is a relative term. In my definition "weird" is relative to norms spoken about or displayed in the bible. For example some people believe that speaking in toungues is weird. In their world, spiritural manifestations like that just dont happen, they have never experienced it before. When that person finally experiences it, or witnesses it, it is classifyed by them as weird. But if, as a Christian, speaking in toungues should be a normal occurance, then the complete absence of speakin in tongues is weird.
The same can be said about hearing from God. Some people believe that God only speaks to people through his word and possibly through events, but never audibly. If hearing God audably is supposed to be normal and we don't hear God audably then we are weird, not the people who do hear God audably.
The same can be said for miracles. Do you know I went to a church that honestly believed that miracles, like what you read about in the gospels and in Acts, "were not for us today"? Who is weird in this case? As I said before, perhaps the bible should be the standard for what is normal and thus what is weird. I hope I haven't made this too confusing.

whatfor · Jan 4, 2009

Mrs Butterworth said:
Thank you Imana (perhaps that's not spelled right, but you know who you are) and One11 for your differing opinions, and I thank the rest of you for your opinions as well.

Just to clarify things, the behavior I was questioning was getting up, at any point in the service,(worship, preaching, announcements, or prayer) screaming, and running the isles. Sometimes the individual doing this would have a possessed look in his/her eyes (like in the movies) and sometimes not. Sometimes the motivation for their behavior was clear, it was a "look at me" thing, sometimes it was not.

The behavior I am questioning is not the boisterous whooping and hollering that accompanies many charismatic worship services. Nor is it the outbursts spoken in agreement with a preacher during a sermon or prayer (for example). The latter I don't have a problem with, provided one is still polite, and the outburst is not accompanied with a large spray of spit or anything like that.
I used to live in New Orleans where yelling stuff out in service was commonplace. It made church rather entertaining and yet there was still a sense of order.

furthermore, while order is important, that word is often used by religious traditionalists who want to dampen the spirit in a way that, bibcally speakig, they shouldn't. If the bible says that ------ should be allowed then it should be allowed. The question then remains, should getting up and screaming (as I have defined it) be allowed? I don't see any biblical justification for it but do I see a lot of biblical justification for not allowing it.

On a side note (and perhaps this deserves it's own thread) the word "Weird" in reference to church behavior is a relative term. In my definition "weird" is relative to norms spoken about or displayed in the bible. For example some people believe that speaking in toungues is weird. In their world, spiritural manifestations like that just dont happen, they have never experienced it before. When that person finally experiences it, or witnesses it, it is classifyed by them as weird. But if, as a Christian, speaking in toungues should be a normal occurance, then the complete absence of speakin in tongues is weird.
The same can be said about hearing from God. Some people believe that God only speaks to people through his word and possibly through events, but never audibly. If hearing God audably is supposed to be normal and we don't hear God audably then we are weird, not the people who do hear God audably.
The same can be said for miracles. Do you know I went to a church that honestly believed that miracles, like what you read about in the gospels and in Acts, "were not for us today"? Who is weird in this case? As I said before, perhaps the bible should be the standard for what is normal and thus what is weird. I hope I haven't made this too confusing.

You put that real well, not confusing at all.
I quite often refer to myself as weird, I know I shouldn't but it's hard excepting this is what is meant to be normal.

revrobor · Jan 5, 2009

Mrs Butterworth said:
In the past I have been to a few churches where, for no particular reason, someone from the congregation will get up, scream, and then run in the isles between the seats. This can happen at any point during the service and, to say the least, can be quite disruptive (and it's weird).

When I ask about this behavior the answer is always something like " well, when the Holy Spirit gets a hold of someone, they just do that". With this reasoning, they allow the behavior in the church.

I can't find anything in the bible that mentions this behavior and/or states that this behavior is acceptable during a service. Because this behavior is disruptive (not to mention weird) and does not work to edify others, I see it as something that should not be allowed.

What is your opinion?

I sounds like you have been attending some of the fringe Pentacostal churches. If it disturbs you stop attending those churches. There are plenty of churches out there that teach the Word without such performances.

Desperaux · Jan 5, 2009

Mrs Butterworth said:
Thank you Imana (perhaps that's not spelled right, but you know who you are) and One11 for your differing opinions, and I thank the rest of you for your opinions as well.

Just to clarify things, the behavior I was questioning was getting up, at any point in the service,(worship, preaching, announcements, or prayer) screaming, and running the isles. Sometimes the individual doing this would have a possessed look in his/her eyes (like in the movies) and sometimes not. Sometimes the motivation for their behavior was clear, it was a "look at me" thing, sometimes it was not.

The behavior I am questioning is not the boisterous whooping and hollering that accompanies many charismatic worship services. Nor is it the outbursts spoken in agreement with a preacher during a sermon or prayer (for example). The latter I don't have a problem with, provided one is still polite, and the outburst is not accompanied with a large spray of spit or anything like that.
I used to live in New Orleans where yelling stuff out in service was commonplace. It made church rather entertaining and yet there was still a sense of order.

furthermore, while order is important, that word is often used by religious traditionalists who want to dampen the spirit in a way that, bibcally speakig, they shouldn't. If the bible says that ------ should be allowed then it should be allowed. The question then remains, should getting up and screaming (as I have defined it) be allowed? I don't see any biblical justification for it but do I see a lot of biblical justification for not allowing it.

On a side note (and perhaps this deserves it's own thread) the word "Weird" in reference to church behavior is a relative term. In my definition "weird" is relative to norms spoken about or displayed in the bible. For example some people believe that speaking in toungues is weird. In their world, spiritural manifestations like that just dont happen, they have never experienced it before. When that person finally experiences it, or witnesses it, it is classifyed by them as weird. But if, as a Christian, speaking in toungues should be a normal occurance, then the complete absence of speakin in tongues is weird.
The same can be said about hearing from God. Some people believe that God only speaks to people through his word and possibly through events, but never audibly. If hearing God audably is supposed to be normal and we don't hear God audably then we are weird, not the people who do hear God audably.
The same can be said for miracles. Do you know I went to a church that honestly believed that miracles, like what you read about in the gospels and in Acts, "were not for us today"? Who is weird in this case? As I said before, perhaps the bible should be the standard for what is normal and thus what is weird. I hope I haven't made this too confusing.

Great post! (Whooping, also!)

I share your concern regarding those isolated occurrences that you have witnessed. The ushers may just be derelict in their duties. Ushers need to consider what they do as ministry as well, taking it seriously to guard the security of the assembly. The woman who does that just may be an agent of darkness being used to disrupt and distract, yet the assembly is myopic, and has become deaf to the discerning voice of the Spirit, allowing it to go on continuously.

Just thoughts...

WalksWithChrist · Jan 5, 2009

I attended a *highly* spirited Pentecostal church with the speaking in tongues and lots of crying and so forth. But no running and screaming.

I call...um, bull corn.

People will worship in personal ways I guess.
Who am I to judge really?

one11 · Jan 5, 2009

Okay Mr. Butterworth, you are upset about jumping up and running and screaming down the isles and you're probably talking about when the Pastor is giving his sermon? I've personally never seen this except on televangelism shows which I don't watch because it doesn't edify me. I'm just waiting for the spew about okay now sow your seeds of your love gift when everyone is worked up into a frenzy. Some of these are fake and nothing more than an old carnival trick to distract the "sucker" into losing their money or easily giving up their money. Turn off televangalism and start visiting other churches that are denomination orientented because in non-denominational churches you will NOT get away from the possibility of this or other things making you uncomfortable as I did state to you the non-denominational churches are first and foremost set up to accept people of all theological backgrounds worshiping together and side by side, so you may see and experience some things you do not like.

Read the sticky above about what non-denominational churches are. Also, talk to the pastor and the elders about their opinion on this and that it makes you uncomfortable. Listen to what they say, and if their answers aren't sufficient, it might be time to start visiting some other types of denominational worship.

How many types of denominations have your visited?

Desperaux · Jan 5, 2009

one11 said:
Okay Mr. Butterworth, you are upset about jumping up and running and screaming down the isles and you're probably talking about when the Pastor is giving his sermon? I've personally never seen this except on televangelism shows which I don't watch because it doesn't edify me. I'm just waiting for the spew about okay now sow your seeds of your love gift when everyone is worked up into a frenzy. Some of these are fake and nothing more than an old carnival trick to distract the "sucker" into losing their money or easily giving up their money. Turn off televangalism and start visiting other churches that are denomination orientented because in non-denominational churches you will NOT get away from the possibility of this or other things making you uncomfortable as I did state to you the non-denominational churches are first and foremost set up to accept people of all theological backgrounds worshiping together and side by side, so you may see and experience some things you do not like.

Read the sticky above about what non-denominational churches are. Also, talk to the pastor and the elders about their opinion on this and that it makes you uncomfortable. Listen to what they say, and if their answers aren't sufficient, it might be time to start visiting some other types of denominational worship.

How many types of denominations have your visited?

I have no idea what this is saying. I am non-denominational, and guess what? God led us to our church!

I have never been happier, nor grown so much in God in such a short time. I am glad God saw fit to take us out of the denominational church we grew up in. We are not disorderly in any way, and we allow the Holy Spirit to have His way.

one11 · Jan 5, 2009

Desperaux said:
I have no idea what this is saying. I am non-denominational, and guess what? God led us to our church!

I have never been happier, nor grown so much in God in such a short time. I am glad God saw fit to take us out of the denominational church we grew up in. We are not disorderly in any way, and we allow the Holy Spirit to have His way.

I am too. I love being non-denominational. But the purpose of being non-denominational is to accept people who may have many different denominational backgrounds and ways of worship, and it seems it is making Mrs. Butterworth uncomfortable. The best thing for her to do is to talk to the Pastor or the elders, not us.

It also depends on how large a non-denominational church is. Some could be very small and differ widely from those congregations which may have a building that houses 20,000 or more.

I'm kind of saying don't complain, but rather ask, seek and do in your real environment if you want change. Don't just be a salmon stuck swimming upstream if you are uncomfortable with your church, but rather be proactive rather than stating in an opening post "I don't think it should be allowed". It's not up to any of us to decide that, so it's kind of a mute discussion in the first place. It is up to us to change our church, however.

Oh, and I mentioned televangelism because these people have something to gain -- your money! And I see a lot of televangelism as "fake" or a "show" as people have said in this thread. However, a person doing this in church in a real environment doesn't have anything to gain (?) so one needs to deduce it's merely a way they worship and in non-denominational churches are welcome to.

rob64 · Jan 5, 2009

one11 said:
1 Corinthians
Orderly Worship

26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. 29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.
39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

_________________________________________________________

Churches of today are rarely set up like this in regards to prophecy except for some charismatic churches and non-denominational. I'd say church services of today hardly resemble the above at all. Maybe Messianic Jews and Amish follow the above? I cannot say so as I've never been to any of their meetings.

Not to mention women have the gift of prophesy too.

1 Corinthians Here:

5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

The day of Pentecost also and other days mens eyes were opened that women could prophesy too in the NT. What Paul is saying is not for everyone to speak at once. That would be useless as no one would hear.

p.s. I'm glad I don't live in Mississippi because first Rob you quote scripture out of context, then I ask YOU for scripture, you can't provide it, then I give you the scripture (not taken out of context) and then you complain. I don't think I could on either end with you. I offer you the scripture you don't even know, then complain because a woman showed it you? That is logical. :shakes head:

Uhm...out of context ? My quote of 1st. Cor. is from the New King James Version. And the context...is that THING that are going on in the church should be done "decently and in order".
What have i complained about? Please quote my complaint, because i don't see any
Uhmm...you gave me the exact same scripture i gave you, just in a different version of the Bible. You see, everyone might not have the same Bible version you have. So it just might not appear word for word with your version.
Again, please quote my complaint.
i'm truly sorry if i offended you, i obviously have...sorry
Edit;
does Mississippi really have anything to do with this?
And if so, i'm releaved, because i'm actually a Hoosier lol

one11 · Jan 5, 2009

rob64 said:
Uhm...out of context ? My quote of 1st. Cor. is from the New King James Version. And the context...is that THING that are going on in the church should be done "decently and in order".
What have i complained about? Please quote my complaint, because i don't see any
Uhmm...you gave me the exact same scripture i gave you, just in a different version of the Bible. You see, everyone might not have the same Bible version you have. So it just might not appear word for word with your version.
Again, please quote my complaint.
i'm truly sorry if i offended you, i obviously have...sorry
Edit;
does Mississippi really have anything to do with this?
And if so, i'm releaved, because i'm actually a Hoosier lol

I don't know what a Hoosier is. And I wasn't appreciative of your attitude towards women. I thought that might kind of a be a backwoods way of thinking for lack of a better explanation.

I'm sitting here wondering why, on a debate forum, we have to have an icon which shows male or female? What difference does it make?

You know the scripture, "there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, we are all ONE in Christ Jesus" and he loves us all the same.

You know you are also discussing the Epistles in regards to church conduct, not the Gospel? Nor did you even notice in those scriptures from the Epistles that Paul contradicted himself in regards to woman and also wrote about "the law". lol

Not to mention that scripture is talking about orderliness in the context of prophesying and speaking in tongues.

I think Christianity would be a lot more peaceful if we just concentrated on the Gospels and the Gospel message as that is where our peace lies not debating over disputable matters of no consequence, which is another scripture altogether.

Don't close your mind to your sisters no matter what your preconceived notions of women might be.

Mrs Butterworth · Jan 5, 2009

A spirited church service does not make me feel uncomfortable, a church service that may be doing things that are unbiblical does make me feel uncomfortable.

As for non-denominational churches, and denominational churches for that matter,I have been to many. I have been a Christian for 26 years and have lived all over the United States giving me plenty of opportunities to experience a wide variety of churches.

I could ask a pastor about his opinion of my question but, naturally, that opinion would depend on what they see appropriate in church. Furthermore, more and more I find that I have just as much understanding about Christianity (if not more) then they do. My purpose for asking my question on this forum is to drum up possibilities that I may have missed, and then examine them. Also, I am generally curious about how many people support practices that are not, or may not be, (I am leaving in the possibility that I am wrong) Biblicaly sound and on what grounds, if any, they support these things.

Eccl12and13 · Jan 5, 2009

I would like to offer the following as far as speaking in tongues. This is just a little history to the Pentecostal movement. I find it very interesting, the timing of speaking in tongues and the birth of the Church of God in Christ. Please read to the end. The last section sheds a little light on past cultures and "Speaking in Tongues".

"THE CHURCH OF GOD IN CHRIST"

The Church of God in Christ is also considered to be a member of the great Protestant body though it did not directly evolve from the European or English Reformation but had its origin within the General Association to the Baptist Church.

Elder Charles Harrison Mason, who later became the founder and organizer of the Church of God in Christ, was born September 8,1866, on the Prior Farm near Memphis, Tennessee.

Young C.H. Mason
Elder Mason was converted in November, 1878, and baptized by his brother, I.S. Nelson, a Baptist Preacher.
He then experienced sanctification through the word of God and preached his first sermon in "Holiness" from II Timothy 2:1-3: "Thou therefore endure hardness as a good soldier of Jesus Christ."

On November 1, 1893, Elder Mason matriculated into the Arkansas Baptist College, but withdrew after three months because of his dissatisfaction with the methods of teaching and the presentation of the Bible message.

In 1895, Bishop Mason met Elder C.P. Jones of Jackson, Mississippi; Elder J.E. Jeter, of Little Rock, Arkansas; and Elder W.S. Pleasant of Hazelhurst, Mississippi.
Jointly, these militant gospel preachers conducted a revival in 1896, in Jackson, Mississippi, which had far-reaching affects on the city. (Notice...no speaking in tongues!)

The turning point in Elder Mason's life came in March, 1907, when he journeyed to Los Angeles, California, to attend a great Pentecostal revival with Elder D.J. Young and Elder J.A. Jeter.

Now this is where is starts to get interesting. As you continue to read you will notice something that happened to the founding father of the C.O.G.I.C. that had NEVER happened before; enter the Azuza Street Revival!!! At this point we will look at what happened at this great revival in California.

Outbreak of Glossolalia, 1901 to 1906
The modern Christian practice of glossolalia is often said to have originated around the beginning of the twentieth century in the United States.
The city of Topeka, Kansas is often cited as the center of the Pentecostal movement and the resurgence of glossolalia in the Church. Charles Fox Parham, a holiness preacher and founder of Bethel Bible College in 1900, is given the credit to being the one who influenced modern Pentecostalism.

During what has been called a sermon by Parham, a bold student named Agnes Ozman asked him for prayer and the laying on of hands to specifically ask God to fill her with the Holy Spirit. This was the night of New Year's Eve, 1900. She became the first of many students to experience glossolalia, coincidentally in the first hours of the twentieth century.

Word of the outpouring of the Spirit spread to other Holiness congregations. Parham wrote, studied, traveled, preached, and taught about glossolalia for the next few years. Parham and others who believed in or manifested tongues were persecuted from both inside and outside of the church. In 1905, he opened a Bible school in Houston. It was there that William J. Seymour became indoctrinated. It is notable that Seymour did not speak in tongues while in Houston.

When Seymour was invited to speak in Los Angeles about the baptism of the Holy Spirit in February 1906, he accepted. His first speaking engagement was met with dispute, primarily because he preached about "tongues" being a primary indication of the baptism of the Spirit, yet he did not himself speak in tongues.

It was not until April that his preaching and teaching about glossolalia paid dividends, first to a man named Edward Lee, and later to Seymour. Similar to the experience of Parham in 1901, Seymour's students received the ability to speak in tongues a few days before he did.

By May 1906, indeed only one month after the Great San Francisco Earthquake which was seen as an "act of God", Seymour was leading a major movement of the Spirit known as the Azusa Street Revival in Los Angeles.

The following are excerpts from Elder Mason's personal testimony regarding his receiving the Holy Ghost.

"The first day in the meeting I sat to myself, away from those that went with me. I began to thank God in my heart for all things, for when I heard some speak in tongues, I knew it was right though I did not understand it. Nevertheless, it was sweet to me.”

“I also thank God for Elder Seymour who came and preached a wonderful sermon. His words were sweet and powerful and it seems that I hear them now while writing. When he closed his sermon, he said 'All of those that want to be sanctified or baptized with the Holy Ghost, go to the upper room; and all those that want to be justified, come to the altar.'“

“I said that is the place for me, for it may be that I am not converted and if not, God knows it and can convert me..."
"Glory!"

"The second night of prayer I saw a vision. I saw myself standing alone and had a dry roll of paper in my mouth trying to swallow it. Looking up towards the heavens, there appeared a man at my side. I turned my eyes at once, then I awoke and the interpretation came.”

“God had me swallowing the whole book and if I did not turn my eyes to anyone but God and Him only, He would baptize me. I said yes to Him, and at once in the morning when I arose, I could hear a voice in me saying, " I see..."

"I got a place at the altar and began to thank God. After that, I said Lord if I could only baptize myself, I would do so; for I wanted the baptism so bad I did not know what to do. I said, Lord, You will have to do the work for me; so I turned it over into His hands."

"Then, I began to ask for the baptism of the Holy Ghost according to Acts 2:41, which readeth thus: 'Then they that gladly received His word were baptized,' Then I saw that I had a right to be glad and not sad."

"The enemy said to me, there may be something wrong with you. Then a voice spoke to me saying, if there is anything wrong with you, Christ will find it and take it away and marry you...Someone said, 'Let us sing.' I arose and the first song that came to me was 'He brought me out of the Miry Clay.'

“The Spirit came upon the saints and upon me...Then I gave up for the Lord to have His way within me. So there came a wave of Glory into me and all of my being was filled with the Glory of the Lord.”

“So when He had gotten me straight on my feet, there came a light which enveloped my entire being above the brightness of the sun. When I opened my mouth to say Glory, a flame touched my tongue which ran down me. My language changed and no word could I speak in my own tongue. Oh! I was filled with the Glory of the Lord. My soul was then satisfied."

People from many denominations and races gathered daily to see and hear, to preach and pray, to sing and shout, and to speak in new tongues. Newspapers, clearly biased against the movement, reported the happenings as a wild and weird group of mostly "colored" people acting as if they were pretty disturbed, exhibiting behavior unheard of in most Protestant churches of the time: intense shouting, vigorous jerking, dancing, passing out, crying, howling, emotional outbursts, and speaking gibberish.

Many religious leaders in Los Angeles and other places were quick to disparage the goings on at Azusa Street, informing their flocks that the new Pentecostal movement was (at worst) sensational, Satanic, Spiritualism, and (at best) too overly focused on the Holy Spirit instead of Jesus Christ.

Witnesses at the Azusa Street Revival wrote of seeing fire resting on the heads of participants, miraculous healings in the meetings, and incidents of speaking in tongues being understood by native speakers of the language.

According to the first issue of William Seymore's newsletter, "The Apostolic Faith," from 1906:

“A Mohammedan, a Soudanese by birth, a [m]an who is an interpreter and speaks six[t]een languages, came into the meetings at Azusa Street and the Lord gave him messages which none but himself could understand. He identified, interpreted and wrote [a] number of the languages.

This new Pentecostal experience which Elder Mason found for himself, for he began to proclaim to others upon his return home to Memphis, Tennessee as a New Testament doctrine. A division, subsequently, became evident within the ranks of Elder Mason's contemporaries when Elder J. A. Jeter, the General Overseer, Elder C. P. Jones, and others regarded the new Holy Ghost experience of speaking in tongues as a delusion. Being unable to resolve their difference in the New Testament doctrine.

It is in the last paragraph above I hope the readers paid very close attention to.

Elder Mason returned home and presented what happened to him as DOCTRINE!!!!! And in the end it was rejected by others because their actions could not be validated by scriptures.

But where are we to get ALL of our doctrine?

2 Tim. 3:[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I must ask, are any of the following actions...."...disturbed, exhibiting behavior unheard of...: intense shouting, vigorous jerking, dancing, passing out, crying, howling, emotional outbursts, and speaking gibberish....", ever mentioned as acts of the Holy Spirit? If so, please direct me to the book, chapter and verse so I can read it for myself.

Or is this what we are to find in the church:

1 Corth. 14:[27] If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

[28] But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

[33] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

I would like to offer this last bit of information. Please note how far back this practice goes.

Other religions

Aside from Christians, other religious groups also have been observed to practice some form of theopneustic glossolalia. It is perhaps most commonly in Paganism, Shamanism, and other mediumistic religious practices.

Glossolalia was exhibited by the renowned ancient Oracle of Delphi, whereby a priestess of the god Apollo (called the Pythia) speaks in unintelligible utterances, supposedly through the spirit of Apollo in her.

Certain Gnostic magical texts from the Roman period have written on them unintelligible syllables such as "t t t t n n n n d d d d d..." etc. It is conjectured that these may be transliterations of the sorts of sounds made during glossolalia.

The Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians also features a hymn of (mostly) unintelligible syllables which is thought to be an early example of Christian glossolalia.

Desperaux · Jan 5, 2009

Lord help us. Your Holy Spirit is welcome in my church!

one11 · Jan 5, 2009

Mrs Butterworth said:
A spirited church service does not make me feel uncomfortable, a church service that may be doing things that are unbiblical does make me feel uncomfortable.

As for non-denominational churches, and denominational churches for that matter,I have been to many. I have been a Christian for 26 years and have lived all over the United States giving me plenty of opportunities to experience a wide variety of churches.

I could ask a pastor about his opinion of my question but, naturally, that opinion would depend on what they see appropriate in church. Furthermore, more and more I find that I have just as much understanding about Christianity (if not more) then they do. My purpose for asking my question on this forum is to drum up possibilities that I may have missed, and then examine them. Also, I am generally curious about how many people support practices that are not, or may not be, (I am leaving in the possibility that I am wrong) Biblicaly sound and on what grounds, if any, they support these things.

Are you covering your hair in church?

If not, I'd say it's better to just ask your Pastor and elders. If you are not satisfied with their answer, you should hold your peace and deal with it. If you can't deal with it, you should visit other churches. It seems simple enough to me Mrs. Butterworth.

Mrs Butterworth · Jan 5, 2009

One11 you're approach to the problem of weather something is right or wrong is to avoid discussing the rightness or wrongness of the problem, instead you say I should learn to deal with it, or, if I can't, then I should leave and find a group of like minded people. I choose to look into the rightness or wrongness of a situation and use the bible as the standard for determining what is right or wrong. The truth will remain the truth weather I go to this church or that church, and it is the truth that I am after.

Now, the above sounds rather cold, and for that I apologize. I merely needed to state my view of this discussion in a clear and objective manner. I really do appreciate your input even though your opinions seem to differ from mine. In fact, as I said before, I welcome your differing opinion. Thank you.

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