Getting Married After an Ultimatum

[LinkH]

Sometimes on the dating forum, there are men who will date women who want to marry for a really long time and don't propose. Some people will say to give the man an ultimatum. I don't like that idea because I think a man should propose because he really wants to marry a woman and should care enough about her to pursue her and want to be married to her after. Maybe telling him that she doesn't want to see him because she wants a relationship with someone who wants to marry may work and cause him to want to marry her.

I understand the internal struggle of decision-making a man has to go through to propose. Maybe it's only men who consider marriage a one-time deal who take it that seriously. In my case, I really wanted to marry my wife. My struggle was with determining that the marriage was God's will specifically for me considering our callings and various other issues. It was a big deal for me, but I proposed after five months of my first conversation with my wife. It is a big commitment to make, and I understand why some men, even Christian men, would delay.

What I'd like to discuss in this forum is does anyone have experience with this sort of thing? If a woman either gives a man a real ultimatum or else just shuts down the relationship so that she can find someone to marry, and the man proposes after that, what kind of relationship are they likely to have? Is the lack of pursuit, desire, and decision-making on the part of the man something that may spell trouble later in the marriage?

 

[mkgal1]

Some people will say to give the man an ultimatum. I don't like that idea because I think a man should propose because he really wants to marry a woman and should care enough about her to pursue her and want to be married to her after.

What I'd like to discuss in this forum is does anyone have experience with this sort of thing? If a woman either gives a man a real ultimatum or else just shuts down the relationship so that she can find someone to marry, and the man proposes after that, what kind of relationship are they likely to have? Is the lack of pursuit, desire, and decision-making on the part of the man something that may spell trouble later in the marriage?

A not-so-good one. I don't think it's because of "lack of pursuit".....but, like the book says......"he's just not *that* into her". That's not a great foundation to begin with. That's settling. To me.....it reminds me of the game we used to play as children.....Musical Chairs......and at a certain age....everyone "takes their seat"---the one they're closest to. It's not good.

 

[iambren]

I believe an ultimatum or coming to an understanding is VERY appropriate. I believe that even if he doesn't want to propose a reason is due her, given that she has invested her time and he knew she wanted marriage eventually.

I dated B. for 4-5 years and she was getting antsy. I didn't blame her. I loved her but out of fear of commitment I couldn't follow through. I told her I would drag on and on so I self-imposed my own ultimatum lasting 6 months. I agonized , love conquered fear and we wed 3 months later.

 

[DZoolander]

Well, when I was dating I noticed the hesitation you are talking about (on my part) in contrast to the women I was dating, but the reasoning was a little bit different. It kind of plays into what you're talking about, however, but not in the way I think you're going for.

My primary concern when determining whether or not to get married boiled down to "is this the last woman I'm prepared to have sex with?" Up until my wife - the answer was "no". I always saw myself wanting sex with at least one more person with every girl I dated. I could never envision myself saying "yep - that's the one I'll be content with for the rest of my life"

My observation was that there were some fundamental differences between the way that *most* men view marriage and the context of it - and the way that *most* women I met viewed marriage.

Women, I felt, grew up with a different point of view on it. Women grew up with the princess tales, the stories of Cinderella, Snow White, the Disney-esque view of how a man was going to sweep them off their feet, etc... That's kinda what they want - and most dating relationships are viewed within that context. Every guy they meet is judged in the context of "could this be the one?" - and I think that's an important distinction to make.

I, and most guys I know, did not grow up with such fantasies. When I met a girl - my interest was "is she good enough for the time being, and will I be ashamed to bring her around my friends and/or family?" Whether or not she'd be a good life-long partner really didn't matter...because I always figured somewhere down the line after X number of women, I'd meet the one that would be great forever. No need, however, to hold off on everything else until the day came that I finally met that one.

So - dating to me was just a string of Ms. Right Now's until I finally met Ms. Right. That was my intention - I knew that's what I was doing - and I was perfectly cool with it.

I think that's a fundamental difference between men and women. I think most men go into dating with a far less serious point of view when compared to women - and as a result - there's not a feeling of pressure about whether or not she's "right" that I think a lot of women carry with them.

...which does lead into another issue...the issue of potential disappointment.

I disagree with your contention that women sue for divorce over frivolous things - however I think your statistic about women being far more apt to be the one to file for divorce is probably accurate. The reason for this I think is that when you carry so many more expectations into marriage - your potential for disappointment is greater.

Like I said - my biggest internal struggle in the decision to marry was "will I want to have sex with anyone else? Am I prepared to say this is the last person?"

As such - I really didn't carry a ton of other expectations into the marriage. So long as she remained the cool girl that I decided that I wanted to marry, and the person that I'd already grown to love, I'm happy. I didn't go in with a thousand expectations of what a wife was to be, how she was to behave, etc. Basically - marriage to me was what we had while dating - under the promise of a lifetime. Nothing more, nothing less.

I don't know if women generally look at it the same way - and carrying more thoughts/expectations into the marriage I think leaves far greater room for potential disappointment and unhappiness.

 

[Verve]

If a man wants to marry a woman he will propose, but if he doesn't want to marry her he should allow her to be free to date other men.

 

[Avniel]

I believe an ultimatum or coming to an understanding is VERY appropriate. I believe that even if he doesn't want to propose a reason is due her, given that she has invested her time and he knew she wanted marriage eventually.

I dated B. for 4-5 years and she was getting antsy. I didn't blame her. I loved her but out of fear of commitment I couldn't follow through. I told her I would drag on and on so I self-imposed my own ultimatum lasting 6 months. I agonized , love conquered fear and we wed 3 months later.

My question to you is what made your wife different?

 

[Verve]

I believe an ultimatum or coming to an understanding is VERY appropriate. I believe that even if he doesn't want to propose a reason is due her, given that she has invested her time and he knew she wanted marriage eventually.

I dated B. for 4-5 years and she was getting antsy. I didn't blame her. I loved her but out of fear of commitment I couldn't follow through. I told her I would drag on and on so I self-imposed my own ultimatum lasting 6 months. I agonized , love conquered fear and we wed 3 months later.

There is a difference between a self-imposed ultimatum and one given by the other partner.

 

[PetLuv]

If a man wants to marry a woman he will propose, but if he doesn't want to marry her he should allow her to be free to date other men.

Yup.

I would never put an ultimatum out there on someone, but after a certain point I would walk away and most likely never get involved with them again after that.

Edit - If I am not supposed to post somewhere I really shouldn't be allowed to see it in the New Posts link... Sorry

 

[LinkH]

I'm thinking an 'ultimatum strategy' is bad because it could case a woman to marry a man who didn't really want her enough. Pushing him away and telling him it is because he is not serious about marriage makes more sense, IMO. It isn't the play for 'control' that the ultimatum is. The woman isn't forcing a proposal on the man.

 

[Luther073082]

Honestly if a guy is stringing her along then he needs to know the simple fact that if he's not going to marry her then she's going to move on.

I guess you could call that an ultimatum. . . I just think it's clear communication, that if this isn't leading to marriage within an reasonable amount of time, then it's going to end.

I don't buy into excuses of "is it God's will" or "well this is a one time thing, so I want to get it right."

If you are dating you aught to know at that time that God designed you for marriage, if you arn't even sure about that, then you shouldn't be dating or courting a woman. (Same thing for women, shouldn't be dating if they arn't sure if they want to get married in the first place.)

And getting it right, if you are older (especially above 25) you should be able to know within 1 or 2 years if this is the person you want to spend the rest of your life with.

I was in a long distance relationship and I was sure about it and asked my wife to marry me 8 and a half months after we got together.

If after 2 years (assuming you are over 25), you arn't sure yet then either you need to grow up or the answer is no, that this isn't a person you should spend the rest of your life with.

 

[Luther073082]

Well, when I was dating I noticed the hesitation you are talking about (on my part) in contrast to the women I was dating, but the reasoning was a little bit different. It kind of plays into what you're talking about, however, but not in the way I think you're going for.

My primary concern when determining whether or not to get married boiled down to "is this the last woman I'm prepared to have sex with?" Up until my wife - the answer was "no". I always saw myself wanting sex with at least one more person with every girl I dated. I could never envision myself saying "yep - that's the one I'll be content with for the rest of my life"

My observation was that there were some fundamental differences between the way that *most* men view marriage and the context of it - and the way that *most* women I met viewed marriage.

And the thought process is entirely different for a guy who's is trying to wait til marriage.

I did not even consider that line of thinking because I had only had sex with one other person and I had been waiting since then.

When I knew I wanted to spend the rest of my life with my wife, my only sexual line of thinking was sex with 1 woman was way better then no sex at all.

Women, I felt, grew up with a different point of view on it. Women grew up with the princess tales, the stories of Cinderella, Snow White, the Disney-esque view of how a man was going to sweep them off their feet, etc... That's kinda what they want - and most dating relationships are viewed within that context. Every guy they meet is judged in the context of "could this be the one?" - and I think that's an important distinction to make.

I, and most guys I know, did not grow up with such fantasies. When I met a girl - my interest was "is she good enough for the time being, and will I be ashamed to bring her around my friends and/or family?" Whether or not she'd be a good life-long partner really didn't matter...because I always figured somewhere down the line after X number of women, I'd meet the one that would be great forever. No need, however, to hold off on everything else until the day came that I finally met that one.

So - dating to me was just a string of Ms. Right Now's until I finally met Ms. Right. That was my intention - I knew that's what I was doing - and I was perfectly cool with it.

I think that's a fundamental difference between men and women. I think most men go into dating with a far less serious point of view when compared to women - and as a result - there's not a feeling of pressure about whether or not she's "right" that I think a lot of women carry with them.

...which does lead into another issue...the issue of potential disappointment.

I disagree with your contention that women sue for divorce over frivolous things - however I think your statistic about women being far more apt to be the one to file for divorce is probably accurate. The reason for this I think is that when you carry so many more expectations into marriage - your potential for disappointment is greater.

Do you realize you are essentially agreeing with us in a lot of ways. Women with higher expectations from marriage and their spouse divorce over much smaller things then men. Things a lot of us would call frivolous.

It's one thing to end a marriage when your spouse is violating fundamental vows of marriage or endangering the welfare of you or the family.

It's a completly different thing to divorce because things didn't go exactly like you had expected them to.

 

[Hetta]

Honestly if a guy is stringing her along then he needs to know the simple fact that if he's not going to marry her then she's going to move on.

I guess you could call that an ultimatum. . . I just think it's clear communication, that if this isn't leading to marriage within an reasonable amount of time, then it's going to end.

I don't buy into excuses of "is it God's will" or "well this is a one time thing, so I want to get it right."

If you are dating you aught to know at that time that God designed you for marriage, if you arn't even sure about that, then you shouldn't be dating or courting a woman. (Same thing for women, shouldn't be dating if they arn't sure if they want to get married in the first place.)

And getting it right, if you are older (especially above 25) you should be able to know within 1 or 2 years if this is the person you want to spend the rest of your life with.

I was in a long distance relationship and I was sure about it and asked my wife to marry me 8 and a half months after we got together.

If after 2 years (assuming you are over 25), you arn't sure yet then either you need to grow up or the answer is no, that this isn't a person you should spend the rest of your life with.

I totally agree with this. If the person you are dating is showing no signs of wanting to commit to marriage, and you want to marry, then telling them - "I want to marry, so if you don't want to marry me, tell me so that I can find someone who does want to get married" - sounds totally honest and above board. Far better than dragging out the relationship for another 5 years while he or she figures out where they are at. Then the one wanting to marry can go and find a marriage partner.

 

[Hetta]

Sometimes on the dating forum, there are men who will date women who want to marry for a really long time and don't propose. Some people will say to give the man an ultimatum. I don't like that idea because I think a man should propose because he really wants to marry a woman and should care enough about her to pursue her and want to be married to her after. Maybe telling him that she doesn't want to see him because she wants a relationship with someone who wants to marry may work and cause him to want to marry her.

I understand the internal struggle of decision-making a man has to go through to propose. Maybe it's only men who consider marriage a one-time deal who take it that seriously. In my case, I really wanted to marry my wife. My struggle was with determining that the marriage was God's will specifically for me considering our callings and various other issues. It was a big deal for me, but I proposed after five months of my first conversation with my wife. It is a big commitment to make, and I understand why some men, even Christian men, would delay.

What I'd like to discuss in this forum is does anyone have experience with this sort of thing? If a woman either gives a man a real ultimatum or else just shuts down the relationship so that she can find someone to marry, and the man proposes after that, what kind of relationship are they likely to have? Is the lack of pursuit, desire, and decision-making on the part of the man something that may spell trouble later in the marriage?

If, as you say, men (but it is not only men) consider marriage to be a one time deal and they take it seriously, then why should there be trouble later on his part? If he takes it seriously, as you say, then he wouldn't propose on a whim - or are you saying that men are likely to go into marriage on a whim and later regret it and make life miserable for the wife?

I see no problem in telling a man or woman that you are only interested in marriage, not dating for 5 years. It is straight and honest. To be expecting marriage and never saying it leads to broken hearts on the part of those wanting marriage.

I have never experienced this. I have never unwillingly given my heart to someone and been "broken hearted" that they didn't love me back. My husband loved me and wanted to marry (he says) from the first time we spoke to each other. I wanted only marriage and would not have dated for a long time nor cohabited. He did cool off a little bit at one point during our courtship, and at that time, I thought about dating someone else - not to tease him, but because I thought he had decided not to propose. He didn't know I was thinking about moving on, but then he proposed anyway. It turned out his cooling off period was because he was weighing up whether to propose or not. So it all worked out.

With a daughter dating a young man, I would tell her that if she wanted marriage with him, she should bring it up within 6 months of the courtship. If he ran away, then shrug your shoulders, move on, find a man who does value you and want marriage. And for this reason - do not commit your heart or your body!

 

[Avniel]

I'm thinking an 'ultimatum strategy' is bad because it could case a woman to marry a man who didn't really want her enough. Pushing him away and telling him it is because he is not serious about marriage makes more sense, IMO. It isn't the play for 'control' that the ultimatum is. The woman isn't forcing a proposal on the man.

To me I don't think the person using the ultimatum strategy can ever be sure that their spouse wanted to marry or even like you said are that emotionally connected to their spouse. It is controlling and a tad bit immature.

 

[DZoolander]

Do you realize you are essentially agreeing with us in a lot of ways. Women with higher expectations from marriage and their spouse divorce over much smaller things then men. Things a lot of us would call frivolous.

It's one thing to end a marriage when your spouse is violating fundamental vows of marriage or endangering the welfare of you or the family.

It's a completly different thing to divorce because things didn't go exactly like you had expected them to.

You're right to an extent. My beef with the anti-divorce-on-demand folks isn't that I disagree that many times divorce is approached for what I believe to be the wrong reasons... I think there is definitely the risk of people throwing up their hands and leaving marriages that could be saved - and that it probably happens sometimes. I also agree that in many situations - things like the "disappointment" I'm talking about factors in.

Where I disagree with you, however, is in the idea that this problem is best rectified by making divorce more difficult or punitive in nature.

I am not a proponent of trying to prevent "bad" acts by making them more difficult to do - because I also feel that there are many people that have legitimate cause for divorce - and I do not want to make it more cumbersome upon them to take a course of action that I think is best for them. You will *never* (IMHO) get people to behave more righteously by making the wrong choice more difficult/punitive. You will never get "good acts" by steering people through pain away from "bad acts".

That's where the crux of my issue comes in - and why I argue against you guys. I think you're approaching trying to solve a problem from the wrong direction. Educate people on what it means to have a good marriage - and what it means to overcome your issues through example. Make them want to try via your own testimonies. That's how you're going to get what you want. Railing on about "feminism" and trying to make divorce even more painful than it currently is will *not* accomplish what you're trying to accomplish (once again, IMHO).

 

[Avniel]

You're right to an extent. My beef with the anti-divorce-on-demand folks isn't that I disagree that many times divorce is approached for what I believe to be the wrong reasons... I think there is definitely the risk of people throwing up their hands and leaving marriages that could be saved - and that it probably happens sometimes. I also agree that in many situations - things like the "disappointment" I'm talking about factors in.

Where I disagree with you, however, is in the idea that this problem is best rectified by making divorce more difficult or punitive in nature.

I am not a proponent of trying to prevent "bad" acts by making them more difficult to do - because I also feel that there are many people that have legitimate cause for divorce - and I do not want to make it more cumbersome upon them to take a course of action that I think is best for them. You will *never* (IMHO) get people to behave more righteously by making the wrong choice more difficult/punitive. You will never get "good acts" by steering people through pain away from "bad acts".

That's where the crux of my issue comes in - and why I argue against you guys. I think you're approaching trying to solve a problem from the wrong direction. Educate people on what it means to have a good marriage - and what it means to overcome your issues through example. Make them want to try via your own testimonies. That's how you're going to get what you want. Railing on about "feminism" and trying to make divorce even more painful than it currently is will *not* accomplish what you're trying to accomplish (once again, IMHO).

I think marriage should be harder

 

[DZoolander]

I agree.

I think marriage should be FAR harder to enter into - and I would leave divorce alone. Where the problem of people not taking marriage seriously enough should be addressed is BEFORE people get married.

 

[Hetta]

To me I don't think the person using the ultimatum strategy can ever be sure that their spouse wanted to marry or even like you said are that emotionally connected to their spouse. It is controlling and a tad bit immature.

But what kind of fool marries on the basis of ultimatum and not because they wanted to marry? It seems like a 'get out of jail free' card to me. "I did not really want to marry, but you made me, and now I'm not happy I will divorce you and be a bachelor again."

 

[Avniel]

But what kind of fool marries on the basis of ultimatum and not because they wanted to marry? It seems like a 'get out of jail free' card to me. "I did not really want to marry, but you made me, and now I'm not happy I will divorce you and be a bachelor again."

Yes there are many foolish people in the world and people that fall into peer pressure.

I don't see how anyone could ever accuse me of that at all.....most people are very familiar with my beliefs on divorce.

If someone does give a person the ultimatum and they get married and there spouse is unwise, foolish and not very loving I don't think that should be a big shocker. If a person has to give you an ultimatum to do something you really didn't want to do it or you would have done it already.

 

[JohnDB]

for a lot of guys it is the responsibility thingy that they really don't want.

Our society is full of that these days. We don't train our children (and many have never been taught to take up responsibility as an extra because it is the right thing to do) to go beyond themselves and take on responsibility.

When a guy "takes" a wife he is automatically taking on extra responsibility. (A Christian man does) of caring for her and providing for her...and any children that come about.

So when some guys don't feel as if their careers are going well enough or their incomes aren't enough (regardless of her career or income) they will try to avoid getting married.

I had a couple of friends and that was his reasoning. He played non-stop with different career paths and never settled down. His GF of several years (6) finally got tired of all his failed/unfulfilled plans at education or career paths and put it to him in no uncertain terms that she loved him but didn't want to wait any longer to get married and have kids. She warned him and warned him about an upcoming date in the far future. (she really wanted to marry him) But he goofed off and did nothing but play around more instead of settling down. (character flaw)

She broke up with him at her predetermined time and started dating another guy. It wasn't even six months later that she married him and began to spit out the kids.

And this guy is still unmarried to this day. He is a Christian man but is shacked up with a girl (last I heard and she was really kinda trashy by comparison) and unwilling to marry her either. I told him years ago he was making a lot of mistakes...about following through with any thing...it didn't matter apparently. He has paid the price. His GF was the prize that he let go.

How do you not put forth an ultimatum if a guy is dragging his feet about getting married?

It will motivate the good guys but will create an "easy out" of a bad relationship that seems comfortable. Pearls these days are really impossible to tell apart. There are the real natural pearls, the cultured pearls and the fake pearls...and from a distance they all look alike.