• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Germ theory of disease

Cantuar

Forever England
Jul 15, 2002
1,085
4
71
Visit site
✟23,889.00
Faith
Agnostic
At the very least, educators should be allowed to teach the significant scientific evidence against evolutionary theory. That can be done without any mention of God.

It can't, though. There isn't any evidence against evolution that doesn't eventually get back to problems with one bit of scripture or another.

Please provide some backup for your assertion that Pasteur was an antievolutionist - remembering that the "life from nonlife" issue refers to abiogenesis, not evolution, since evolution can occur very easily in populations regardless of how the first cell got here.
 
Upvote 0
how muhch do you want to bet, stormy that your aunt would have gotten better without prayer? I will bet MY religion on it. Also you are crazy if you do not seek a doctor if you are sick. If you dont want to thats fine, have fun dying from rabies, or malaria, or lyme disease. 'cause "God" sure aint gonna fix ya up there.
 
Upvote 0

Didaskomenos

Voiced Bilabial Spirant
Feb 11, 2002
1,057
40
GA
Visit site
✟25,661.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
seebs,

Well, I don't think that sufficient grounds have been laid for me to believe that the Bible teaches, or that the biblical writers functioned from, a view of disease as exclusively caused by evil spirits. There are plenty of passages all over the Gospels in which Jesus heals and casts out demons.  There are many passages in which Jesus heals people's ailments with no reference made to demonic activity, while elsewhere in the immediate vicinity of those passages are pericopes detailing exorcisms.  They are obviously seen as separate problems with separate solutions.

Now, whether you believe that *any* illnesses are caused by evil spirits or not is a different matter. But do not make the mistake of thinking that all early Christians believed that all sicknesses were spiritual in cause - in fact, Jesus seemed to try to steer those thusly misled in a different direction (John 9:1-3). Besides, the doctors of the time (among whom was Luke) were not witch doctors, but people who practiced primitive medical treatments to treat physical problems.

Once again, there is no doubt that there were occasions in the Gospels in which certain afflictions are attributed to demons (e.g., the man who threw himself in the fire = epilepsy), but the majority of the time demons are mentioned as involved, the affliction was demon-possession itself.  My current cosmology does allow for occasions of spiritual oppression to manifest themselves in physical infirmities.

The usual reason cited for the apparent lack of demonically-caused sicknesses today is the change of culture.  In primitive cultures, Christian missionaries are still reporting obviously spiritual issues that manifest themselves physically.  The Christians treat these problems as spiritual problems, and whole villages are converted in sheer amazement.  Perhaps certain cultures and mindsets allow more ideal conditions for demonic activity than ours.  Perhaps Satan (yes, I believe in a devil) understands that in our Christianity-inundated society, widespread exorcisms would be "bad for business."  That is my current belief.

What the Bible *does* tell us about disease, which is good advice today, is that we should minister to the sick, and comfort them. And that stays true whether disease is caused by germs or evil spirits.

I agree.
 
Upvote 0

seebs

God Made Me A Skeptic
Apr 9, 2002
31,917
1,530
20
Saint Paul, MN
Visit site
✟70,235.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Very good points... Still, I think there have been many people who interpreted the Bible as teaching that disease was a function of "spirits", and who made mistakes as a result. I think people often treat the Bible as a replacement for paying attention to the measurable physical qualities of the world.
 
Upvote 0

Didaskomenos

Voiced Bilabial Spirant
Feb 11, 2002
1,057
40
GA
Visit site
✟25,661.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Originally posted by seebs
Very good points... Still, I think there have been many people who interpreted the Bible as teaching that disease was a function of "spirits", and who made mistakes as a result. I think people often treat the Bible as a replacement for paying attention to the measurable physical qualities of the world.

Once again, we agree.
 
Upvote 0

Lacmeh

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2002
711
1
Visit site
✟1,156.00
It is proven beyond doubt, that bacteria and viruses cause deseases.

One can observe easily bacteria and not so easily viruses.

One can observe the reaction of the human immune system to those things.

One can observe the effects of bacteria and viruses on the various human cells.

One can observe the effects of certain medications to those same bacteria and viruses.

Of course there is the human factor to add. The mental situation of the human in question can influence the reaction of the immune system. But nonethless there are medications needed to help the immune system.

The observation, that germs cause deseases are at least a provable fairy tale :)
 
Upvote 0

WinAce

Just an old legend...
Jun 23, 2002
1,077
47
40
In perpetual bliss, so long as I'm with Jess.
Visit site
✟24,306.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
And your point was?

One can observe evolution--new traits, improved existing traits, natural selection, speciation, etc.

One can observe the distinct lines of evidence linking species we know for a fact to be related (dogs and wolves, cats and wild cats).

One can use those exact same lines of evidence to say other species, like humans and chimps, are closely related as well. In the end, all of them are.

One can make extremely specific, testable predictions on homology percentages between any two species, vestigial DNA, biographic distribution of life, transitional fossils, and other fundamentally different sets of data. No other model except common descent with modification is able to successfully predict these things, although they can be accomodated with ad hoc rationalizations, much like anything else you could observe in support of this theory. However, this also leads the other hypotheses to have 0 explanatory value and be totally pseudoscientific.

Of course, there is the human factor to add. The mental situation of the human in question can influence the reaction to any amount of evidence you can ever present. If they have already decided that the only evidence that will convince them is a time-lapse set of clear orbital photographs from the Precambrian to the present showing in minute detail every stage of evolution... you get the picture. Some will continue believing no matter the evidence, even if the stars spelled themselves out to read 'you bozos, I used evolution to make you!'

Similarly, if people had theological reasons to believe germs did not cause disease, but spirits did, no amount of evidence would convince some of them. They would use the exact same denial methods fundamentalists use against evolution--"you only have statistical links between bacteria and disease--show me a germ directly causing symptoms'. No scientist will be able to meet the challenge, because even with observation we can only infer and overwhelmingly corroborate that the germ is, in fact, the cause, and not something else.

The observations of germs causing disease and evolution producing the diversity of life are both as 'proven' as anything gets in science, and neither are fairy tales--except to people who have a pre-set agenda which requires them to reject the hypothesis out of hand before even attempting to understand it.
 
Upvote 0
One can observe easily bacteria and not so easily viruses.


True, viruses attack in a way like this.
virus attach to cell and push a piece of itself into the cell. It pumps out some sort of simple substance..... virul protien I think...... and this causes many viruses to form withi g the cell,, eventually bursting. The viruses are then off to new cells.
 
Upvote 0
Actually, viruses provide an interesting source for more evidence in favor of evolution.

In certain cases, viruses can insert their own genetic material into the host's genome. (HIV is an example of a virus that is very adept at this). If the insertion happens in the reproductive cells, there is a chance that the viral DNA can then get passed on to the organism's descendants.

Scientists refer to these as endogenous retroviruses, or ERVs. The human genome is in fact full of them. Where evolution comes into play is when scientists examine the similarities in ERVs between species. If two species are closely related by common descent, then theory predicts that they should share similar ERVs as well. As expected, evolution passes this test with flying colors.

The following paper illustrates one experiment where the ERV relationships were tested:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/96/18/10254
 
Upvote 0

Christian Soldier

QUESTION EVOLUTION
Aug 1, 2002
1,524
55
Visit site
✟2,190.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
Initial post by seebs: "Does anyone here not accept the germ theory of disease? Does anyone here deny that the Bible clearly describes a theory of disease involving evil spirits?"

Posted later by seebs: "Very good points... Still, I think there have been many people who interpreted the Bible as teaching that disease was a function of "spirits", and who made mistakes as a result. I think people often treat the Bible as a replacement for paying attention to the measurable physical qualities of the world."

Seebs has definitely backed off his initial proclamation that the Bible "clearly" describes a theory of disease involving evil spirits. He now admits that there have been people who misinterpreted the Bible.

It's not the fault of the Bible if people misinterpret it. Newton considered the Bible to be the greatest of all books, and he certainly didn't use it as "a replacement for paying attention to the measurable physical qualities of the world." Many of the great scientists in history were Christians or theists.

Unless seebs can cite some Biblical verses that suggest evil spirits cause all or most diseases, it has become obvious that he's just blowing smoke.
 
Upvote 0
It's not the fault of the Bible if people misinterpret it.

I think that is seebs' point. I think he considers evolution-denial a misinterpretation of the Bible.

Newton considered the Bible to be the greatest of all books, and he certainly didn't use it as "a replacement for paying attention to the measurable physical qualities of the world." Many of the great scientists in history were Christians or theists.

Kenneth Miller, Denis Lamoureaux, Glenn Morton, Keith Miller, ... maybe not "Great Scientists", but Christians - and more true to science than Duane Gish and his ilk, by far.
 
Upvote 0
Unless seebs can cite some Biblical verses that suggest evil spirits cause all or most diseases, it has become obvious that he's just blowing smoke.

What if he just shows that some Bible passages can be interpreted to suggest evil spirits cause all or most diseases? Would that not support his contention admirably?
 
Upvote 0

Christian Soldier

QUESTION EVOLUTION
Aug 1, 2002
1,524
55
Visit site
✟2,190.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
"What if he just shows that some Bible passages can be interpreted to suggest evil spirits cause all or most diseases? Would that not support his contention admirably?"

Where's the beef?! So far seebs and Jerry have failed to post any relevant verses. I'm waiting.
 
Upvote 0
Originally posted by Christian Soldier
"There isn't any evidence against evolution that doesn't eventually get back to problems with one bit of scripture or another."

Cantuar's statement is balderdash:

A Scientific Critique Of Evolution

Cantuar, he is right. As he has clearly demonstrated with this link to Spetner, some of the so-called 'evidence' against evolution just goes back to hand-waving.

Hand-waving doesn't derive directly from any bit of Scripture - its just what evolution-deniers do to cool themselves off when they are presented with evidence in favor of evolution.
 
Upvote 0
Originally posted by Christian Soldier
"What if he just shows that some Bible passages can be interpreted to suggest evil spirits cause all or most diseases? Would that not support his contention admirably?"

Where's the beef?! So far seebs and Jerry have failed to post any relevant verses. I'm waiting.

The bit about the paranoid schizophrenic fellow (or two fellows) in Gergesenes who were possessed by "Legion"? Would that not qualify as a verse that could be misinterpreted to show disease was caused by evil spirits?

Do you deny that there are any passages in the Bible that could be interpreted (correctly or not) to suggest that evil spirits cause all or most disease?
 
Upvote 0