Germ theory of disease

Christian Soldier

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"I think that is seebs' point. I think he considers evolution-denial a misinterpretation of the Bible."

No, his point was that the Bible "clearly" describes a theory of disease involving evil spirits. So far, both of you have failed miserably in establishing his premise.

"Kenneth Miller, Denis Lamoureaux, Glenn Morton, Keith Miller, ... maybe not "Great Scientists", but Christians - and more true to science than Duane Gish and his ilk, by far.

Merely your biased opinion, which is irrelevant. Duane Gish is a very qualified scientist---Ph.D. in biochemistry from the University Of California at Berkeley. Worked many years for world-renown Upjohn Corp. (Pharmaceuticals), where he worked on research teams with Nobel Prize winners.
 
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No, his point was that the Bible "clearly" describes a theory of disease involving evil spirits. So far, both of you have failed miserably in establishing his premise.

No, I think you misunderstood him. He was being somewhat sarcastic about what the Bible "clearly" describes.

Merely your biased opinion, which is irrelevant. Duane Gish is a very qualified scientist---Ph.D. in biochemistry from the University Of California at Berkeley. Worked many years for world-renown Upjohn Corp. (Pharmaceuticals), where he worked on research teams with Nobel Prize winners.

Can you cite some of his published research, please?

On pubmed, his name (if he is DM Gish) has one citationg:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12045628&dopt=Abstract

but I doubt that it is he, because his training, IIRC, is in biochemistry, and this is a paper on pulmonary failure.

Yet, when I say that he is far less true to science, I do not refer to his general lack of published research - I refer more to his abandon of the method when his professional theology comes into the picture.

 
 
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Christian Soldier

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"Cantuar, he is right. As he has clearly demonstrated with this link to Spetner, some of the so-called 'evidence' against evolution just goes back to hand-waving.

Hand-waving doesn't derive directly from any bit of Scripture - its just what evolution-deniers do to cool themselves off when they are presented with evidence in favor of evolution."

Jerry's rant is a bad case of the pot calling the kettle black. He's the biggest hand-waver on this forum.

Please give us a scientific critique of Lee Spetner's analysis. Spetner is a biophysicist of international repute. He taught for many years at Johns Hopkins. His book Not By Chance, is a devastating critique of the NDT. The book is endorsed by Nobel Prize winner Christian Anfinsen.
 
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Jerry's rant is a bad case of the pot calling the kettle black. He's the biggest hand-waver on this forum.

You haven't been hanging around here much have you?

Please give us a scientific critique of Lee Spetner's analysis.

Don't need to. Its been done here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/spetner.html

His book Not By Chance, is a devastating critique of the NDT.

The findings of which were, or were not, submitted for peer review in order for his devastating critique to earn him his place in the Who's Who of Biology?
 
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Christian Soldier

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"No, I think you misunderstood him. He was being somewhat sarcastic about what the Bible "clearly" describes."

Please note Jerry's furious hand-waving. Seebs was attacking the Bible by claiming that it "clearly" describes an evil spirit theory of disease. So far, neither of you has posted a single verse to back that claim---so it must now be concluded that the claim is garbage.

"Can you cite some of his published research, please?"

"Duane Gish, Ph.D. Biochemistry
He has a B.S. in Chemistry from UCLA and a Ph.D. in Biochemistry from the University of California (Berkeley). He spent a total of 18 years in biochemical research; with Cornell University Medical College (NYC), with the Virus Laboratory, U of Cal-Berkley and and on the research staff of the Upjohn Pharmaceutical Company (Michigan). He has published approximately 40 articles in scientific journals."


http://www.icr.org/creationscientists/gish.html
 
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Originally posted by Christian Soldier
"No, I think you misunderstood him. He was being somewhat sarcastic about what the Bible "clearly" describes."

Please note Jerry's furious hand-waving. Seebs was attacking the Bible by claiming that it "clearly" describes an evil spirit theory of disease. So far, neither of you has posted a single verse to back that claim---so it must now be concluded that the claim is garbage.

I seriously doubt that seebs was attacking the Bible. He is a devout Christian. That would be something like shooting yourself in the foot.  

"Can you cite some of his published research, please?"

"Duane Gish, Ph.D. Biochemistry
He has a B.S. in Chemistry from UCLA and a Ph.D. in Biochemistry from the University of California (Berkeley). He spent a total of 18 years in biochemical research; with Cornell University Medical College (NYC), with the Virus Laboratory, U of Cal-Berkley and and on the research staff of the Upjohn Pharmaceutical Company (Michigan). He has published approximately 40 articles in scientific journals."


http://www.icr.org/creationscientists/gish.html [/B]

40 articles sounds decent. I hope that the ICR wasn't counting letters to the editor and such. I wonder why someone equipped to use the methods of science, at least well enough to publish 40 papers in peer-reviewed literature would abandon those methods so completely in areas where he is paid for his theologically correct views. What is your explanation?

 

{edit: Goodnight. I will check for responses tomorrow. Speaking of responses, what did you think of Dr. Max's response to Spetner?}
 
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seebs

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CS: I haven't had time to post, but there's pretty good evidence.

Let's start with a really obvious one: Matthew 12:22, which says that a man was blind and dumb, because he was possessed with a devil.

If you look throughout the examples of people being healed, it's generally assumed that this involves banishing the devils which torment them.

I was, BTW, not attacking the Bible; I was attacking the belief that the Bible is a science textbook, which is surely one of the most effective ways to dispel faith. Augustine pointed out that the Bible may sometimes be simply wrong on matters of scientific fact, and that when believers try to push these points, they discredit God, as well as themselves.
 
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Didaskomenos

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Christian Soldier, why in the world are you attacking seebs? If, as you claim, he made a slight adjustment in his beliefs towards something you believe in, why in heaven's name (literally) are you attacking him? I just don't get it. If that's what being a "soldier" is about, mark me as a conscientious objector.
 
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seebs

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Oh, I forgot:

Matthew 4:24, 8:16, 8:28-34, 9:32-33, 10:1, 12:22, 15:22, 17:14-18. Those are fairly typical.

It's worth noting that the "evil spirits" thing really only showed up around 300BC; before that, it was "evil spirits of the LORD" which caused some of these things; e.g., 1 Sam 19:9, or 1 Kings 22:23.

Go figure.

Nonetheless, it was believed for a long time that disease was simply a result of evil spirits, not any kind of biological thing, and this belief was rooted in statements in Scripture.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by Jerry Smith

I seriously doubt that seebs was attacking the Bible. He is a devout Christian. That would be something like shooting yourself in the foot.

Anyone who doubts that I sometimes shoot myself in the foot need only talk to my wife. My patient, patient, wife.

But no, my goal is not to attack the Bible. I think the Bible is really cool. But, when I have an unexplained pain, I read the "health handbook" I got from my previous insurance company first, I call a doctor second, and I check the internet third; the Bible is not a big part of my approach to understanding physical ailments.

On the other hand, if I find myself wondering what to do in a difficult moral situation, the Bible turns out to be a really good source.

It's a question of using the right tool for the right job.
 
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"Let's start with a really obvious one: Matthew 12:22, which says that a man was blind and dumb, because he was possessed with a devil."

Matthew 12:22 doesn't say that the devil caused him to be blind and dumb. It says Jesus healed a blind and dumb man who was demon-possessed. A distinct difference. There's nothing in the scripture to suggest that he wasn't blind and dumb before he became possessed.
 
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Christian Soldier

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"Christian Soldier, why in the world are you attacking seebs? If, as you claim, he made a slight adjustment in his beliefs towards something you believe in, why in heaven's name (literally) are you attacking him? I just don't get it. If that's what being a "soldier" is about, mark me as a conscientious objector."

I'm not making an ad hominem attack on him, I am disagreeing with SOME of his views. If you have a problem with that, maybe discussion forums aren't for you. Please try to post something that is relevant to the topic. Thank you.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by Christian Soldier
"Let's start with a really obvious one: Matthew 12:22, which says that a man was blind and dumb, because he was possessed with a devil."

Matthew 12:22 doesn't say that the devil caused him to be blind and dumb. It says Jesus healed a blind and dumb man who was demon-possessed. A distinct difference. There's nothing in the scripture to suggest that he wasn't blind and dumb before he became possessed.

Except, of course, that he is better the moment that the demon leaves him. The connection is quite consistent; he has a demon in him, and is not well, the demon leaves him, and he becomes well.

Look at all the stuff on leprosy, and consider how important they thought *ritual* cleanliness was. The germ theory of disease would not predict that making sacrifices of animals to atone for your uncleanliness would help.
 
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Didaskomenos

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Originally posted by Christian Soldier
I'm not making an ad hominem attack on him, I am disagreeing with SOME of his views. If you have a problem with that, maybe discussion forums aren't for you. Please try to post something that is relevant to the topic. Thank you.

LOL. You obviously missed the post in which I argued your point of view.

But it'll be ok. You'll get used to things after awhile. ;)
 
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Didaskomenos

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Originally posted by seebs
Look at all the stuff on leprosy, and consider how important they thought *ritual* cleanliness was. The germ theory of disease would not predict that making sacrifices of animals to atone for your uncleanliness would help.

Perhaps not, but a theory of divine healing would. Nowhere does the Law even talk of evil spirits as causing sickness. In fact, many of the purity rituals included washing and avoidance of physical contact, which together seem oddly to precursor our precautions against germs. IMO, that helps argue that maybe God did have a hand in the formulation of the Law. I certainly wouldn't give the Israelites themselves credit for the germ theory of disease.

It is simply not demonstrable that everyone involved with the Bible saw a demon behind every sickness. However, I get your point (and agree) that the Bible is not meant to be used for a medical text, a science book, or anything but a guide to moral and spiritual matters. Whether the Israelites understood anything about germ theory or not.
 
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chickenman

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spetners book is only devastating to evolution when you either lack the knowledge to see through his claims, or if you already have a commitment to evolution-denial.

his claim that specificity = information content is a claim and nothing more. Higher specificity doesn't mean a gene has more informational content. Sub-par efficiency is in fact in some cases important in function - GLUT transporters and hexokinases actually require differing specificities/efficiencies.
 
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Originally posted by seebs
Nonetheless, it was believed for a long time that disease was simply a result of evil spirits, not any kind of biological thing, and this belief was rooted in statements in Scripture.

Mark 5
25 A large crowd followed and pressed around him. And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26 She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak,

By the way, Luke was a doctor.
 
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Originally posted by Christian Soldier
Sorry, Jerry. The article at talk.origins that you linked to has already been responded to, with Spetner easily refuting Max:

Max/talk.origins Refuted Here

If you are using "easy" and "facile" interchangeably, then yes.

Have a closer look at the link I sent you. It deals with this response of Spetner's, too.
 
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