Geocentricity

[lesliedellow]

Emeritus Distinguished Professor George Ellis, Cosmologist & Mathematician: "People need to be aware that there is a range of models that could explain the observations. For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations. You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds. In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong in that. What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that."

So your philosophy says that the universe is in motion beneath the plane, and the plane is standing still. I think you will find that most of the human race are of a different persuasion.

 

[ananda]

So your philosophy says that the universe is in motion beneath the plane, and the plane is standing still.

I am saying that the earth is still, and planes move around the earth. The rest of the universe is also moving around the earth.

I think you will find that most of the human race are of a different persuasion.

The opinion of the majority doesn't make something right (Mt 7:13,14).

 

[Sketcher]

It is conservative to take verses at face value if at all possible. You reject the plain assertion of the verse.

Where is your Scriptural proof for heliocentrism?

Scripture isn't a science text. It tells us the truth about God, and the truth about man. Since the verse you quoted is in a Psalm, and a Psalm about God's greatness, and since it also has other metaphors ("The floods have lifted up, O LORD, The floods have lifted up their voice"), it is plainly evident that the world being established and unable to be moved is also a metaphor. If God put it in orbit, no one will be able to move it from its orbit until he were to decide otherwise. That is a testimony to his greatness, which is what Psalm 93 is really about anyway.

 

[Pteriax]

Prove it.

I don't have to, lol. Prove Alexander the great was real why don't you?

You dodged my question: at what distance is an object no longer fixed to the earth?

False. I specifically explained it.

You bore false witness with the claim that I only have "one verse to go on". There are at least three verses which claim a fixed earth - 1Ch 16:30, Psa 93:1, & Psa 96:10.

False. You keep referring to only one verse. Just because you cite two others now is irrelevant. The fact is that prior to this post you were in fact going off of a single verse. Not that this changes anything. You are twisting scripture. http://www.christianforums.com/t7762021/

 

[ananda]

False. You keep referring to only one verse. Just because you cite two others now is irrelevant. The fact is that prior to this post you were in fact going off of a single verse. /

False - I posted all three verses in one of my first posts found here in this very thread. I refuse to engage you any further since you decide to deliver false witness, so this ends our conversation.

 

[Soothfish]

Are there any other conservatives here that also believe in geocentricity? (That is, the idea that the Earth is at the center of the universe, and that the sun, moon, and stars orbit the fixed Earth)

I believe that Scripture teaches this as fact, and surprisingly, even members of my own tradition are generally conservative yet none in the forums have defended this. Even many prominent world-class scientists have admitted that geocentricity is indeed a valid interpretation of the data; however, "science" as a whole cannot teach geocentricity because they would then have to admit that the Earth is uniquely special in the cosmos, thus leading to the forbidden idea that there must be a Creator. By replacing Earth into a heliocentric universe, it's easier to see things from an atheistic viewpoint and to dismiss Earth as a product of evolution, an alleged "big-bang", and so forth.

I wonder if there are any geocentrists here?

The universe orbits around God. Earth is just a stinkhole...

 

[Simon_Templar]

Frankly, if a person can't acknowledge that a poetic turn of phrase could have figurative meaning, there is no point in talking to them.

This is basically like arguing that because Jesus uses the phrase "the eye is single" means that we all only have one eye.

 

[ananda]

Thanks for everyone's Messiah-like responses! Have a good day.

 

[classicalhero]

"The world also is established that it cannot be moved." 1Ch 16:30 cf Psa 93:1, 96:10

If the world is firmly established, then everything else is in movement and rotating around it.

The alternative heliocentric theory would have me believe that I am standing on an earth that is careening drunkenly around the universe at hundreds of thousands of miles per hour, contrary to what my own senses tell me. I find that harder to believe.

You are misinterpreting those verse. Also in the Psalms we have the Psalmist saying 'I shall not be moved." Psalm 10:6, 15:5, 16:8, 21:7, 62:2,5,9) So to be consistent, you have to be saying that the Psalmist stays in one spot. Clearly that is illogical because people move and as a result it not talking about staying in one spot but being steadfast and solid.

EDIT. Each time you have quoted it, it has been from poetry. You do realise that poetry uses lots of metaphors to get the message across. I serious doubt that in Psalm 23 you will believe that The LORD is literally a shepherd.

 

[Andres88]

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[ananda]

You are misinterpreting those verse. Also in the Psalms we have the Psalmist saying 'I shall not be moved." Psalm 10:6, 15:5, 16:8, 21:7, 62:2,5,9) So to be consistent, you have to be saying that the Psalmist stays in one spot. Clearly that is illogical because people move and as a result it not talking about staying in one spot but being steadfast and solid.

EDIT. Each time you have quoted it, it has been from poetry. You do realise that poetry uses lots of metaphors to get the message across. I serious doubt that in Psalm 23 you will believe that The LORD is literally a shepherd.

I'm taking Scripture at face value regarding the earth & sun. Feel free to disagree with my interpretation of Scripture, but I would suggest that one should not disagree based on one's indoctrination by the world's wisdom regarding heliocentricity.

Even if you relegate the verses I've chosen in support of geocentricity as metaphorical, I suspect you cannot provide Scripture supporting heliocentricity.

Secondly, even if we ignore Scripture, many eminent establishment scientists have stated that geocentricity is a valid interpretation of observations.

So - if not based on Scripture, nor on science - I'm not sure where all this vehement bitterness against geocentricity comes from, besides men following the vain traditions of men.

 

[lesliedellow]

Tell me, Einstein, how do you explain the seasons?

And if they are the direct result of God's intervention, why do they occur at different times in the northern and southern hemisphere?

 

[Gentlemantech48]

"The world also is established that it cannot be moved." 1Ch 16:30 cf Psa 93:1, 96:10

If the world is firmly established, then everything else is in movement and rotating around it.

The alternative heliocentric theory would have me believe that I am standing on an earth that is careening drunkenly around the universe at hundreds of thousands of miles per hour, contrary to what my own senses tell me. I find that harder to believe.

When very basic scientific principles don't support your "interpretation" of The Word then you need to rethink your interpretation. It is obvious your are misinterpreting the phrase "The world also is established that it cannot be moved". You are trying to make the verse to be physical rather than spiritual.

 

[ananda]

Tell me, Einstein, how do you explain the seasons?

And if they are the direct result of God's intervention, why do they occur at different times in the northern and southern hemisphere?

I don't think Einstein can answer you - he is dead.

The geocentric model shows the sun's path and angle changing depending on the season. Mid-year the sun moves closer to the northern hemisphere. End of year the sun moves closer to the southern hemisphere.

 

[ananda]

When very basic scientific principles don't support your "interpretation" of The Word then you need to rethink your interpretation. It is obvious your are misinterpreting the phrase "The world also is established that it cannot be moved". You are trying to make the verse to be physical rather than spiritual.

What "basic scientific principles" don't support my interpretation?

Do you disagree with establishment scientists who confirm that geocentricity is a valid interpretation of stellar observations?

 

[lesliedellow]

I don't think Einstein can answer you - he is dead.

The geocentric model shows the sun's path and angle changing depending on the season. Mid-year the sun moves closer to the northern hemisphere. End of year the sun moves closer to the southern hemisphere.

Really? And how does that square with Newton's Second Law of Motion?

Don't tell me, Newton got it wrong. So how does your car manage to work?

 

[classicalhero]

I'm taking Scripture at face value regarding the earth & sun. Feel free to disagree with my interpretation of Scripture, but I would suggest that one should not disagree based on one's indoctrination by the world's wisdom regarding heliocentricity.

Even if you relegate the verses I've chosen in support of geocentricity as metaphorical, I suspect you cannot provide Scripture supporting heliocentricity.

Secondly, even if we ignore Scripture, many eminent establishment scientists have stated that geocentricity is a valid interpretation of observations.

So - if not based on Scripture, nor on science - I'm not sure where all this vehement bitterness against geocentricity comes from, besides men following the vain traditions of men.

Are you going to interpret when the Psalmist said that "I shall not move" the same way? To be consistent you also have to say the the Lord is literally a rock, a shepherd, has wings and so on. Your case is onshaky ground since you are using poetry, when poetry often uses colourful language to get it's point across. You are not taking the writer at face value, since you are ignoring that fact that the writer is being poetic and you should be translating it as such. The Bible is full of sayings and metaphors, since that is how we use the language to get our point across.

Well for earth to be the centre of the solar system, then the planets are moving wrong. The motion of the planets are best described as when they are rotating the sun, including the earth. In 1610 Galileo noticed that Venus had phases, that meant that it was rotating around the sun. We have had centuries of observations that have proven without a doubt that the Earth revolves around the Sun. This was done by people who believed in the Bible like Copernicus and others.

 

[ananda]

Really? And how does that square with Newton's Second Law of Motion?0 Don't tell me, Newton got it wrong. So how does your car manage to work?

Newton's Second Law of motion applies equally whether the sun is in apparent movement & the earth is still - or if the earth is in apparent movement & the sun is still. The frames of references are simply switched.

 

[ananda]

Are you going to interpret when the Psalmist said that "I shall not move" the same way? To be consistent you also have to say the the Lord is literally a rock, a shepherd, has wings and so on. Your case is onshaky ground since you are using poetry, when poetry often uses colourful language to get it's point across. You are not taking the writer at face value, since you are ignoring that fact that the writer is being poetic and you should be translating it as such. The Bible is full of sayings and metaphors, since that is how we use the language to get our point across.

Well for earth to be the centre of the solar system, then the planets are moving wrong. The motion of the planets are best described as when they are rotating the sun, including the earth. In 1610 Galileo noticed that Venus had phases, that meant that it was rotating around the sun. We have had centuries of observations that have proven without a doubt that the Earth revolves around the Sun. This was done by people who believed in the Bible like Copernicus and others.

The earth is not the center of the solar system. It is the focal point of the universe. The sun, moon, and firmament with the stars rotate around the earth. The other planets revolve around the sun.

Even modern day establishment scientists admit that this geocentric is not invalid. Geocentricity only goes against the prevaling philosophy of this day, but it does not go against observations.

 

[lesliedellow]

Newton's Second Law of motion applies equally whether the sun is in apparent movement & the earth is still - or if the earth is in apparent movement & the sun is still. The frames of references are simply switched.

If the sun is wobbling about on its axis, there must be some force at work. What is it?

And, even if it was wobbling about on its axis, that still wouldn't account for the seasons, because the sun has spherical symmetry.

One other thing: It is not the Earth's distance form the sun which accounts for the seasons. During the northern hemisphere's summer, the Earth is actually at its furthest remove from the sun - about 94.5 million miles. What accounts for the seasons is the angle at which the sun's radiation hits the earth, and the consequent size of the area over which a given amount of radiation is spread.