throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,851
796
✟523,632.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Matthew 5:17-20:
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Through faith in Christ we do not nullify the Law but rather uphold it. Through our faith we are credited with righteousness which surpasses the old way...keeping the letter of the Law. The Law is only upheld through faith in Christ and living by the Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

BrotherJJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2019
1,120
424
North America
✟167,213.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private

OP Headline:
Gentiles aren't now & never were under Mosaic law.

Post #62 & 83 in this thread speak directly to what you posted.
 
Upvote 0

pescador

Wise old man
Site Supporter
Nov 29, 2011
8,530
4,776
✟498,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat

You must keep in mind when Jesus spoke these words and to whom. He was speaking to the Jews prior to His crucifixion. After Jesus was crucified He sent the Holy Spirit who will guide believers into all truth.

The second covenant does away with the law. Romans 7:4, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." and many other places. That is the basis of the New Covenant,

You can't be under law and under grace. It's one or the other.
 
Upvote 0

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,851
796
✟523,632.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Gentiles, however, are not believers and so they remain under the Law. We, who are believers, have salvation through faith; we are made perfect, credited with righteousness, and live our lives for Christ not being any longer under OT Law...so we do not nullify the Law, but rather uphold the Law in that "new way"of the Spirit...Romans 7:6>
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,930
8,005
NW England
✟1,054,408.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Gentiles, however, are not believers and so they remain under the Law.

Jews would say that Gentiles - i.e non Jews - were not believers.
We would say that Jews were not believers because they have not accepted Jesus, their Messiah.

Christians are Gentiles and are not under Jewish law, which in any case, Jesus came to fulfil.
 
Reactions: klutedavid
Upvote 0

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,851
796
✟523,632.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It is true that Christians are made up of Jews and Gentiles...the Bible continues to use the word gentiles to refer to unbelievers...i.e....Ephesians 4:17; Galatians 2:14. etc
Those not under grace...all unbelievers...will be judged by the Law...
Matthew 5:18:
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Romans 2:12:
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. ETC
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,930
8,005
NW England
✟1,054,408.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It is true that Christians are made up of Jews and Gentiles...the Bible continues to use the word gentiles to refer to unbelievers...

My understanding is that Gentiles is a word that refers to non Jews - so, by definition, all Christians are Gentiles. Christianity started out as a Jewish sect.

Matthew 5:18:
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The law won't disappear, but that doesn't mean that Jesus' followers have to live under it.
 
Upvote 0

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,851
796
✟523,632.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus fulfilled the Law which frees us of our sin when we believe and are credited with righteousness. One does not grab hold of this freedom without faith.

Also where I just previously posted that Christians are made up of Jews and gentiles alike, I was meaning to state believing Jews and not unbelieving Jews.
 
Upvote 0

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,851
796
✟523,632.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Of course Christianity has Jewish roots...the entire Bible speaks of the promise to them.
No...Jesus' followers are freed from the OT letter of the Law. We uphold the Law...letter of the Law...apostle Paul writes in Romans...by living to please the Spirit and putting to death the acts of the flesh.
 
Reactions: pescador
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,851
796
✟523,632.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
While Christendom is made up of Jewish converts and gentiles alike I am not saying that God any longer makes that distinction as Scripture clearly states...we are now all one and all equal in Christ.
 
Reactions: pescador
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,930
8,005
NW England
✟1,054,408.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

How is "law" being defined in this thread?

If it means all the food and hygiene laws given to Moses; I don't believe we were ever under those, therefore we can't bee freed from them.
If it means the 10 commandments; Jesus summed those up as "love God and love your neighbour." He also commanded us to love as he loves, and told us to love even our enemies. We are to obey the laws/commands that he gave us.
 
Upvote 0

BrotherJJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2019
1,120
424
North America
✟167,213.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
AND ??? ...

And that was my reply to post #101 that you directed to me.

Additional context:

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

(MY NOTE to the above verses: Jesus is the testor. His death retires the old Mosaic covenant (Matt 27:51, Mk 15:38, Lk 23:45). His resurrection begins the new Melchizedek covenant

The Matt 5: verses you shared were pre sin's required law fulfilment. Jesus death fulfills the laws requirement for sin & retires the Mosaic Levitical system (that no gentile was ever nor is now under).

Jesus resurrection begins a new covenant with new laws. Time to leave the old (physical) OBSOLETE Mosaic/Moses centered covenant. And embrace the New Eternal (Heb 9:12 & 15) Spiritual Christ centered one.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

pescador

Wise old man
Site Supporter
Nov 29, 2011
8,530
4,776
✟498,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat

So you're a Jew? That's the only conclusion possible when you write that Gentiles, however, are not believers and so they remain under the Law. We, who are believers, have salvation through faith...
 
Upvote 0

pescador

Wise old man
Site Supporter
Nov 29, 2011
8,530
4,776
✟498,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat

Your definition is wrong. Both Jews and Gentiles can be Christians. All the apostles were Jews as were the earliest believers. Gentiles came into the faith years later.

I am a Jew and also a Christian.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,930
8,005
NW England
✟1,054,408.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Your definition is wrong. Both Jews and Gentiles can be Christians.

Yes, I know.
But would a Jew consider that a fellow Jew who became a Christian had deserted the faith, was outside it and the equivalent of a Gentile? I think that's what I meant.

I am a Jew and also a Christian.

Sorry, I hope I didn't offend; I think I worded it badly.
I've read a few books by Jews who became believers; they were amazing.
 
Upvote 0

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,851
796
✟523,632.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So you're a Jew? That's the only conclusion possible when you write that Gentiles, however, are not believers and so they remain under the Law. We, who are believers, have salvation through faith...
Biblically speaking, yes, or rather, just Christians...all alike. But we were grafted into the olive tree...the tree representing the believing Jews in Romans.
 
Upvote 0

pescador

Wise old man
Site Supporter
Nov 29, 2011
8,530
4,776
✟498,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat

You didn't offend. Quite a few people think that Jews can't be Christians, forgetting of course that the earliest believers were Jews, with very few exceptions, such as Luke and Cornelius.
 
Reactions: Strong in Him
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,930
8,005
NW England
✟1,054,408.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You didn't offend. Quite a few people think that Jews can't be Christians, forgetting of course that the earliest believers were Jews, with very few exceptions, such as Luke and Cornelius.

I do believe that Jews can be Christians; I was just meaning that from their fellow Jews' point of view, they may have become as Gentiles.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

pescador

Wise old man
Site Supporter
Nov 29, 2011
8,530
4,776
✟498,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I do believe that Jews can be Christians; I was just meaning that from their fellow Jews' point of view, they may have become as Gentiles.

That's the point of view of some Jews, perhaps, but not all. Judaism is vast and complicated; beliefs vary all over the place.
 
Reactions: Strong in Him
Upvote 0