• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Genesis Is the understanding the of Ancient Hebrews.It doesn't have to be scientific.

dougangel

Regular
Site Supporter
May 7, 2012
1,423
238
New Zealand
✟130,556.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Genesis 1 Order

day 1 Night and day

day 2 water and sky

day 3 ground, sea, plants

day 4 sun, moon and stars

day 5 fish and birds

day 6 land animals, man and women

Genesis 2 order
Gen 2 is pretty much a re-cap. ground, water, man, (cultivated plants)plants, had created the animals, woman.

Man and woman isn't created together in Genesis 2. Gen1 is the "big picture"
Genesis 1 and 2 seem to be different accounts. They don't add up can you explain this ?

I trust you stand corrected.
You haven't taken that from the scriptures you have added that in to what seems logical.
I'll explain this again in another way. I think you should read genesis 1 and 2 very carefully.

Genesis 2
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground,6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.7 Then the Lord God formed Adam from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

In genesis 1 there's water on day 2 and man on day 6. This is different to Genesis 2 ?
In genesis 1 the stars the moon the sun are on day 4. I have an issue with that.
In genesis 1 the animals are made before Adam. In genesis 2 the animals are made after Adam ?

The good thing about Eden is it has Gold, Jewels and aromatic resin, A very ancient way of looking at things.
It just says it's a garden.I have an issue with you saying "cultivated" Who cultivated it. Adam wasn't working it. I think in, garden they mean fruit trees and berry's.
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,701
1,957
✟77,658.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You haven't taken that from the scriptures you have added that in to what seems logical.
I'll explain this again in another way. I think you should read genesis 1 and 2 very carefully.

Genesis 2
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground,6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.7 Then the Lord God formed Adam from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

In genesis 1 there's water on day 2 and man on day 6. This is different to Genesis 2 ?
In genesis 1 the stars the moon the sun are on day 4. I have an issue with that.
In genesis 1 the animals are made before Adam. In genesis 2 the animals are made after Adam ?

The good thing about Eden is it has Gold, Jewels and aromatic resin, A very ancient way of looking at things.
It just says it's a garden.I have an issue with you saying "cultivated" Who cultivated it. Adam wasn't working it. I think in, garden they mean fruit trees and berry's.

Dude, you've been answered ad-nauseum...and you keep asking the same questions over and over again. Do you really think all the scholars and great theologians have gotten it wrong over the hundreds of years of biblical study and you finally figured it out? Seriously. Your disagreement reminds me of what "christian' cult do.

One question that wasn't addressed...You said "In genesis 1 the stars the moon the sun are on day 4. I have an issue with that." That's because you accept the BB as true. If you're seriously interested in an answer to that question you might want to watch the following video. I'd try to explain it to you but I think the video does a better job considering the complexity of the issue.
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Spoken well by by a biblical ignorant atheist.
Why on Earth would you assume that atheists are ignorant of the Bible? On average Atheists understand the Bible better than Christians. Most U.S. atheists became atheists by studying the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,701
1,957
✟77,658.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Why on Earth would you assume that atheists are ignorant of the Bible? On average Atheists understand the Bible better than Christians. Most U.S. atheists became atheists by studying the Bible.

I've been dealing with atheist for a long time....most are ignorant of what the bible says. Their post clearly show that.
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I've been dealing with atheist for a long time....most are ignorant of what the bible says. Their post clearly show that.
Wrong. But then you are a creationist. The means that you make the mistake of reading the Bible literally. We know that life evolved, we know that there was no worldwide flood, so what does that say about the Bible? A non-literal interpretation is the only one that allows a reasonable person to believe the Bible. And worldwide there are many, if not most, reasonable Christians. They don't take the whole Bible literally.

Having a different interpretation of the Bible than you do does not automatically make them wrong. But if you deny reality that does automatically make you wrong. As I said, a non-literal interpretation of some verses of the Bible is best.

ETA: And you are wrong about atheists. As I told you most of them are not ignorant. I can support my claims, can you support yours? What evidence, not your own opinion, supports your claim that most atheists are ignorant of what the Bible says?
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,204
52,659
Guam
✟5,153,134.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
A non-literal interpretation is the only one that allows a reasonable person to believe the Bible. And worldwide there are many, if not most, reasonable Christians. They don't take the whole Bible literally.
Literally or not, every single Christian that ever lived or will live believes IN THE BEGINNING, GOD.

Are they being reasonable, in your opinion?

(Please answer this.)
 
Upvote 0

Hoghead1

Well-Known Member
Oct 27, 2015
4,911
741
78
✟8,968.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, -57, but you are way, way off here. Modern biblical studies, something called “Higher Crticism,” came along way before the “theo-evs.” It introduced a whole new , more objective study of the Bible. Laity often come to Scripture, with the assumption that it is inerrant, tells the truth and just the truth, that things happened just the way the Bible said they did. Biblical scholarship approaches Scripture, from a completely different angle. Biblical scholarship says we should come to Scripture , with an open mind. Maybe it is all true, maybe not. Let us see. So the Higher Criticism has a considerable advantage over traditional attitudes,since it far more objective. Granted, the conclusions of reached though the Higher Criticism might displease and disappoint many laity. However, you need to remember that the world of academic biblical scholarship is a wholly separate world from that of the laity. It goals are different, its methods are different, its priorities are different. Hence, in biblical studies we reserve the right to offend laity. We do not intend to live up to their standards, we will not allow them to sit in judgment upon us, and, honestly, we really don't give a hoot what they think; you cannot get anywhere if you are gong to sit around and worry how your research may offend others. Also, when we go to work in biblical studies we have tools the laity do not. To be a major biblical scholar, you must be fluent in the biblical language and also ancient culture.



Where many laity have trouble is the issue of the inerrancy of Scripture,a biblical studies seriously challenges this. However, it needs to remember that this is the inerrancy theory of Scripture. This concept is purely a human-based theory or collection of guesses as to how God may be related to Scripture. Like any theory, ,maybe it is right, maybe it is wrong. Let's test it out. In so dong, it has been weighed in the balance and fund wanting. Naturally, many have complained that this seriously questions God, defames Scripture,etc. However, one needs to remember that it is God per se or Scripture per se that is under fire here, it is simply a collection of human-made opinions. As many fundamentalist Christians have said, we should no put our standards on God. Hence, If God is content with an errant Scripture, as appears to be the case, then so am I. I admit this does seem like a very strange way for God to relate to Scripture, but he never explained this to me, because he felt I didn't need to know the reason, and so I simply simply accept it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dougangel
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Literally or not, every single Christian that ever lived or will live believes IN THE BEGINNING, GOD.

Are they being reasonable, in your opinion?

(Please answer this.)
There all sorts of degrees of being reasonable. For them, I cannot judge. I think that one can have a reasonable belief in God. One cannot have a reasonable belief if one believes many of the Genesis stories.
 
Upvote 0

Hoghead1

Well-Known Member
Oct 27, 2015
4,911
741
78
✟8,968.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Of course they would say that, AV1611. That isn't the issue at hand. There are other theories about how God creates. One could take the approach that all this fussing over Genesis is entirely unnecessary. It appears to be the case that God is content with an errant Scripture. And if God is content with it, then so should I be. I think rather strange that God would be content with an errant Bible, but he never explained this to anyone, because we really don't need to know, and so we should just stop worrying about it. Many Christians have unduly projected their standards onto God, so that they claim Scripture must be a perfect product. But it is oblivious that God thinks otherwise, and those pushing for inerrancy should stop questioning God.

However. That is not the issue here. The issue here is how to interpret the Genesis account. I see that some are encouraging others to go and read more carefully Genesis. OK, fine. It never hurts to read the Bible. However, you should be aware that the text sitting before you is a translation. Now, the first thing a serious biblical scholar does is to throw out any translation and go right back to the original language. And that's why many laity have difficulty understanding why biblical scholars posit two authors, for Genesis, and talk about multiple sources for the Pentateuch, etc. Your actual visual experience reading Genesis is not at all what the visual experience of the scholar is like. You have a translation, which, by virtue of it being a translation, washes out key discrepancies. If you wanted an English equivalent of what a biblical scholar sees, it's easy. Go type out a paragraph English Standing in for Gen. ), then beg borrow, or steal an example of 17th-cemtiry English (Gen. 2) and paste it beneath the modern one. A mere quick glance will reveal to you to different documents form different time periods. So when some of you want to criticize modern biblical scholarship, that's fine, but you need to honor the fact that you are at a major disadvantage because you cannot read the original texts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dougangel
Upvote 0

lesliedellow

Member
Sep 20, 2010
9,654
2,582
United Kingdom
Visit site
✟119,577.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Of course they would say that, AV1611. That isn't the issue at hand. There are other theories about how God creates. One could take the approach that all this fussing over Genesis is entirely unnecessary. It appears to be the case that God is content with an errant Scripture.

Not exactly a thesis which is likely to be advanced by AV.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,204
52,659
Guam
✟5,153,134.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It appears to be the case that God is content with an errant Scripture.
No He isn't.

The errant ones are those who claim the Bible is errant.

Here are some examples of their errors I've see over the years:
  1. God used "magic" to do His work.
  2. God is genocidal, homicidal, and advocates incest.
  3. God created the earth "unmoveable."
  4. Faith is believing something you know isn't true.
  5. There are two separate creation accounts in Genesis.
  6. They don't know Satan's angelic name.
  7. They don't know God the Father's name.
  8. They can't find evidence of the Jews in the wilderness -- even with their intenary listed in the book of Numbers.
And these are just a very few errors they make.

So when I see someone claim the Bible has errors, I just consider the source.

Many times I say to myself:

"I guess I would too, if I thought like you did."
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,204
52,659
Guam
✟5,153,134.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Not exactly a thesis which is likely to be advanced by AV.
God creates two ways: ex nihilo and ex materia.

Knowing the difference helps.

So in that sense Hoghead is right.

There are other [theories] about how God creates.

The error is in calling them "theories."
 
Upvote 0

KWCrazy

Newbie
Apr 13, 2009
7,229
1,993
Bowling Green, KY
✟98,077.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
No, I certainly would not expect AV1611 to do that. Big deal, so what? I am coming out of academia, which has a far different set of standards. I live by those, not his.
I am sad for you.
Academia will not save your soul.
Knowing how natural law works in the absence of divine intervention does not teach you how it works in the presence of divine intervention.
Naturalism is disproved by a single miracle. There have been dozens written about on this site. 25% of Americans believe they have experienced miracles. That makes MILLIONS witnesses to the fact that naturalism is wrong. It's a logical absurdity to believe in something which cannot be right, so it is logically absurd to believe what is being taught in academia.
 
Upvote 0

Hoghead1

Well-Known Member
Oct 27, 2015
4,911
741
78
✟8,968.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I feel sorry for you, too, KWCrazy, because I don' think you have eve a clue about what I am professing. If you could defend and spell out in detail your comments here, that would help me get a better handle of where you are coming from, so that I can better clarify my position. I understand you have some grudge against academia. OK< fine. The academic world is a very different one than yours , with radically different standards, which I feel u misinterpreting. Before you judge me or any one else, you first need to learn what we do, When you say academia won't save you, I think you are overlooking the fact that higher education is definitely part of the process of salvation.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,204
52,659
Guam
✟5,153,134.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
When you say academia won't save you, I think you are overlooking the fact that higher education is definitely part of the process of salvation.
Sounds like gnosticism to me.

And salvation isn't a process -- salvation is a gift.

Sanctification is the process.
 
Upvote 0

dougangel

Regular
Site Supporter
May 7, 2012
1,423
238
New Zealand
✟130,556.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Literally or not, every single Christian that ever lived or will live believes IN THE BEGINNING, GOD.

Are they being reasonable, in your opinion?

(Please answer this.)

One of the more sensible things in this topic you have said AV.
You're a cult if you don't believe that.
The burning question is :
How ?
And how do we interpret different scriptures in a series of books that span thousands of years ?
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,701
1,957
✟77,658.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
What evidence, not your own opinion, supports your claim that most atheists are ignorant of what the Bible says?

Most Christiand are ignorant of what the bible says....saying that, I'm quite sure I can say without a shadow of a doubt that most atheist are ignorant of what the bible says.
 
Upvote 0